Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #12

[jash]

Either CN and DM have the same taste in bedding, or Mother Rabbit allowed CN take some keepsakes from Maplegate.

I noticed the fur-looking throw in DM's room looks very similar to what was on CN's bed when police executed their warrant.

Links:
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...tle-but-profound-memory-lapses-at-bosma-trial
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/tim-bosma-trial-blood-spatter-1.3473908

 

[Inspector_North]

Can you show me where I am asking for your sympathy? I am confused why you have said this twice on 2 of my posts?

Sorry you took it that way. My fault.
MOO

 

[Abitcountry]

Sorry you took it that way. My fault.
MOO

North...just taking advantage of your post to ask a question.

You posted a picture of Noudga together with a blonde female.......who is the blonde??

 

[Quaere_veritatem]

There's been considerable debate on here about premeditation. If DM was originally charged with forcible confinement which was later upgraded to first degree murder when TB remains were found. wouldn't it follow then that the First degree murder charge was based on forcible confinement not premeditation? imo

 

[Claroon]

Speaking for myself, I don't think I can credit MS with the kind of integrity and character it'll take to admit his minimal, or extensive, involvement in TB's death.

ATM, I also don't see MS and TD as opportunistic risk-takers willing to throw DM under the bus by first admitting MS's role in TB's, or LB's, murder.

Then again, I'm a cynic. I see MS as someone exhibits a different, but equally dangerous, kind of crazy. Someone who allegedly had a dislocated shoulder, fell drunk over the weekend, and still agreed, by all appearances eagerly and of his own volition, for money or cheap thrills, to help DM steal TB's truck on Monday evening. Later than night, he assisted DM in burning TB's body and returned home the next morning with his girlfriend no worse for wear. MS may not have been physically present at the time of murder (which I doubt) or shot TB, but if we are to believe the hangar video, he had no qualms hiding all pertinent evidence of the murder and disengaging himself from such a gruesome endeavour to happily attend his sister's wedding. Takes a "special" kind of person, who's also less inclined to admit his wrongdoings in court, to do this. MOO.

I agree with your description. Some of the others that defend him or say he can be rehabbed would only be able to say that if they know him and have visited him or seen him professionally etc. Making assumptions that he's this or that and that he's even remorseful based on deductions from Twitter feeds and conversations here is someone's own mind playing games on them. Or they are projecting from their own experience--hoping, wishing, convincing themselves something other is the case--that no human can stoop so low.

I do believe in rehabilitation. I think he should sign up for every program the prison offers. But at this stage with no first-hand interaction with him, I see no point in deluding the facts with sentiments.

 

[Claroon]

I wonder if living with the consequences of her son actions may even be an improvement. I am sure she wants this trial to be over so time and copious amounts of wine will allow her to get on with her life without the resource sucking son.

Don't expect sympathy from me. Only MM showed any kind of remorse. Both CN and MB didn't want to get involved in his "mess". I can't help but see red every time I hear one of them describe this horrible heartless crime.

MOO

Having dealt with an extended family member with a newly appeared mental illness, once this family member was taken to the psych ward by police, all felt relieved. We said the person was where they needed to be and we were all taken out of the drama while the person received help. Perhaps that's how MB feels, that he's where he needs to be. Had she taken him to a psych ward first though, TB might have been spared. I wonder if they ever put sociopaths into the psych prison? Maybe depends on how problematic they are in a jail?

 

[billandrew]

There's been considerable debate on here about premeditation. If DM was originally charged with forcible confinement which was later upgraded to first degree murder when TB remains were found. wouldn't it follow then that the First degree murder charge was based on forcible confinement not premeditation? imo

Not necessarily IMO. The idea of forcible confinement applied prior to the knowledge that Bosma was deceased. The police had enough evidence to conclude that Millard was involved in Bosma's disappearance, and from that they were able to charge Millard with forcibly confining Bosma. It was possible that Bosma was alive but tied up somewhere.

However, once it became known that Bosma was murdered, the idea of forcible confinement did not necessarily apply without further evidence to prove that.

IMO the Crown has presented evidence to suggest both premeditation and forcible confinement. As Staff Sergeant Kavanagh stated, Mr. Bosma willingly entered his truck, but he was not allowed to leave. He was confined inside the truck and shot there. Add all the premeditation evidence and you have a pretty strong case for first degree murderer against both DM and MS.

MOO

 

[redwing7225]

Having dealt with an extended family member with a newly appeared mental illness, once this family member was taken to the psych ward by police, all felt relieved. We said the person was where they needed to be and we were all taken out of the drama while the person received help. Perhaps that's how MB feels, that he's where he needs to be. Had she taken him to a psych ward first though, TB might have been spared. I wonder if they ever put sociopaths into the psych prison? Maybe depends on how problematic they are in a jail?

Wholeheartedly agree with mental illness and the ability to rehabilitate CERTAIN instances. IMO, I believe that DM is a lost cause and isn't worth the additional focus in the prison system. Of course I am basing my opinion on the additional murder charges that we the public know about regarding WM and LB.
The mental health programs in Ontario are there for those who want the help...unfortunately, for some people, they see no reason to better themselves. Again, IMO, instances where a mentally ill person cannot comprehend the irrational way of life, family members must be willing to intervene and get the person help.
MB seems to have buried her head in the sand up until now (at least I would hope she sees DM's true colours).
It's unfortunate that there is the possibility of DM'so release from prison prior to his natural death.
Again ...all my opinion

 

[Abitcountry]

There's been considerable debate on here about premeditation. If DM was originally charged with forcible confinement which was later upgraded to first degree murder when TB remains were found. wouldn't it follow then that the First degree murder charge was based on forcible confinement not premeditation? imo

We have been through this conversation many many times already and there never seems to be a clear consensus.
The last time it came up, it was at least clarified that the final police charge was foricble confinement and theft over 5000 dollars and that was then escalated to First Degree Murder when cremains were recovered.
That has always been my own personal position.....but I have come to appreciate the premeditation angle simple because there is an overwhelming amount of evidence to support it and it has clearly been a thorough investigation and courtroom presentation.
In the final analysis, I think there exists so much evidence that the Crown will actually have a choice to make when turning things over to the Jury for their decision........IMO

 

[Abitcountry]

Having dealt with an extended family member with a newly appeared mental illness, once this family member was taken to the psych ward by police, all felt relieved. We said the person was where they needed to be and we were all taken out of the drama while the person received help. Perhaps that's how MB feels, that he's where he needs to be. Had she taken him to a psych ward first though, TB might have been spared. I wonder if they ever put sociopaths into the psych prison? Maybe depends on how problematic they are in a jail?

I suspect if DM were to be properly assessed that he would be found to be a narcissist. It is my understanding that narcissism is not a condition that lends itself to easy remediation even when the patient is willing to make the change and do the work.
By way of understanding, I will add that Paul Bernardo when he was assessed was found to be a malignant narcissist and has shown no interest in therapy of any sort in 20 years.

For anyone interested in signs and symptoms www.psychologytoday.com/narcissist has an interesting article entitled
6 Signs of Narcissism.....that posters here may find very interesting.

 

[Inspector_North]

North...just taking advantage of your post to ask a question.

You posted a picture of Noudga together with a blonde female.......who is the blonde??

Not sure. Someone passed a link to the picture, and I noticed she (blonde) was cut in the CTV version. Maybe I should have done the same. From other pictures I have seen, she is in them, she must be a long time friend. Just a guess.
MOO

 

[Inspector_North]

"After Wayne MIllard was allegedly murdered, Dellen; his mother, Madeleine Burns; and his ex-fiancee [FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]were all present as police investigated the death that night. Smich was not there." [/FONT]http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/tag/madeleine-burns

[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Interesting. Another GF there immediately after. Maybe MB will be called to the stand for one of the other trials?
MOO[/FONT]

 

[Sphinx]

Not sure. Someone passed a link to the picture, and I noticed she (blonde) was cut in the CTV version. Maybe I should have done the same. From other pictures I have seen with them together, she must be a long time friend.
MOO

From one picture I remember, but cannot find now, the blonde could be the stripper girlfriend of MWJ. If so, I have to wonder if CN might have been interested in working part or full time as a stripper too ? I would not put anything past her. After all her unnecessary sexual revelations on the stand, I thought she might be thinking about work in the industry. It is lucrative I am told. IMO

 

[Claroon]

I suspect if DM were to be properly assessed that he would be found to be a narcissist. It is my understanding that narcissism is not a condition that lends itself to easy remediation even when the patient is willing to make the change and do the work.
By way of understanding, I will add that Paul Bernardo when he was assessed was found to be a malignant narcissist and has shown no interest in therapy of any sort in 20 years.

For anyone interested in signs and symptoms www.psychologytoday.com/narcissist has an interesting article entitled
6 Signs of Narcissism.....that posters here may find fery interesting.

Perhaps so. Just want to add that often those that are mentally ill have no "insight." They will be least likely to show interest in medication or therapy because they are adamant there is nothing wrong with them. They will never seek help.

In Ontario there is a process where those who have no insight can be held against their wishes and treated medically against their wishes. It can be initiated by family, police, physician, and anyone who cares enough to devote the time. It's a major legal process with hearing after hearing to get to the point, but it can be done. In some cases, once given an anti-psychotic forcefully, after a period they have clarity for the first time in years, and thus finally achieve insight. Some never do. That being said, I don't think there is any medication for a narcissist or sociopath. I did learn, however, through the process with my extended family member, that there are forensic mental health wards for those who have committed a crime but found mentally ill and there is a mental health prison near Barrie, ON for the same. My understanding is some prisoners are put there eventually because as they age they are just as susceptible to dementia, etc. as anyone.

 

[Claroon]

"After Wayne MIllard was allegedly murdered, Dellen; his mother, Madeleine Burns; and his ex-fiancee [FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]were all present as police investigated the death that night. Smich was not there." [/FONT]http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/tag/madeleine-burns

[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Interesting. Another GF there immediately after. Maybe MB will be called to the stand for one of the other trials?
MOO[/FONT]

Now that you mention it, CN testified she was with DM since 2010/11 but WM died in Nov. 2012. So he was seeing her while engaged to the other. IMO

 

[Claroon]

Yep, MB and CN didn't bother to report the suspicious trailer as soon as they were told he'd been arrested. Must have been notified by phone IMO. Truck sat there for another 2 days even though they'd been told "theft of truck."

SC Tweet "May 10 she goes to Burns house in Kleinberg. Dropped off by mom. They talk about maybe Millard is hurt. Mom waits outside. Apr 28, 2016
Madeleine says Dell's not there. Noudga tells her mom to go. Madeleine tells her Dell's arrested for forcible confinement, theft of truck."

"He was dispatched to 32 Tinsmith Court for a suspicious trailer. Told home owner's son had been arrested by @HamiltonPolice. Feb 09, 2016
Levangie says back of trailer parked so close to house he couldn't get behind it to see license plate. #Bosma Feb 09, 2016
This was May 12. Knocked on doors of house, no answer. "

 

[hellkat2]

My thoughts are along that line too ....... DM was to do the driving and MS was to shoot the victim in the back of the head with mushroom-fragmenting-zombie ammo that does not exit the body (no mess) .... and either the headrest was in the way and he tried it from the left rear seat and missed or wounded TB and then had to take several more shots which broke the window and caused wounds that bled onto the seats and carpets .... or he first tried to shoot thru the foam padded headrest which would have slowed the bullet right down and it only caused injuries at first.

That would also concur with DM telling CN he had to clean up Mark's Mess ..... it would certainly be an F-Up by MS because they ended up having to work all night removing seats and carpets and cleaning up blood from the interior instead of just parking the truck somewhere or send it to the paint shop or whatever ...... and because of all that extra work and the time involved the partly stripped truck was still sitting on a tarp in the hangar to be seen and noticed by the employee who called crime stoppers.

I think Mark's Mess was the big F-Up ..... there is no way they anticipated or planned to contaminate the interior like that ..... it fits with the whole zombie-ammo purpose .... a small 9mm entrance wound and no exit wounds and the truck interior could remain intact.

I must be in denial of the evil that walks amongst us but I cannot accept that they were out to murder TB. It just makes no sense. It would be easier to leave him on the side of the road and take off with his truck.

 

[Arnie M]

"After Wayne MIllard was allegedly murdered, Dellen; his mother, Madeleine Burns; and his ex-fiancee [FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]were all present as police investigated the death that night. Smich was not there." [/FONT]http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/tag/madeleine-burns

[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Interesting. Another GF there immediately after. Maybe MB will be called to the stand for one of the other trials?
MOO[/FONT]

Interesting that MS "was not there" when police investigated the death of WM ..... because I am sure he was living there around that time .

 

[hellkat2]

I would just like to state in MS rap video, where he plays the murderer and has a guy tied up covered in blood, one of the lines of the lyrics is "1 shot to your brain as your sitting inside"( WM, smich was living in the basement when WM was killed) and the last words of the song are 'gone, gone, gone...'.

That is disturbing.

 

[Canadian4]

Abit country, I couldn't get ur link to work.