Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #16

[andreww]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Having been present for his testimony as well, I had many of the same impressions as you did about his character on the stand. The only difference is that I wasn't surprised by it. I was surprised that he testified, but I expected him to show his best form to the jury. If he had gone up and behaved like Noudga did, he would have certainly done himself in.

Having some familiarity with game theory and the dynamics of cut-throat defences, I viewed Smich's testimony as a textbook play to save himself and roast Millard. It started with Dungey introducing him to the jury by saying, "We want to give you the full picture of what happened," and then proceeding to paint him in the best light possible by highlighting positive points about his work history, his dedication to his family, and how he completed his high school education while incarcerated. They even sugar-coated it by introducing his criminal record to show that, despite how amazing of a person he is, he did get mixed up in some bad things: he sold drugs, he stole things, etc. The crux of it all was to create the impression that Smich was a petty thief who was mixed up in a bad lifestyle, but despite this he was always a good guy who would never hurt anybody. From that basis, the story he would tell about the Bosma event would be much more believable.

In the end, I am left with the impression that Smich was not a scheming manipulator like Millard was. They wouldn't have been so compatible with each other if that was true. Rather, Smich looked up to Millard and developed a strong attachment to him like so many other people did. Smich was in a bad place: he was a dropout, he was addicted to booze and cigarettes, etc., and Millard offered him the support and the opportunities to make something of himself. (Note: I find it ironic that Millard wanted to help Smich get off drugs and alcohol, but he also seemed to be his main supplier). There was a real love between them and they expressed it to each other regularly.

At some point, they discovered a mutual thrill in stealing things together. I say thrill because IMO neither of them were desperate for money the way a crack addict might hold up a convenience store. They didn't need to do the things that they did, but there was an excitement in it which became an addiction of its own. As Smich wrote to Millard, "I'm ****in hungry for a mission." There was a clear excitement in these missions, particularly on Smich's behalf despite Millard being the so-called leader. Their addiction to the thrill drove them to escalate their criminal activities over time.

Everyone will draw their own conclusions as to how far they went in pursuit of the "thrill", but in my own opinion, they both discovered a thrill in killing people. Sadly it took three murders before they got caught.

Lipstick on a pig as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Inspector_North]

This case may not have any impact on changes to LE investigations, but it may have an impact on organized crime and how they screen potential gun buyers.

DM is/was a loose canon with the potential for much collateral damage. I am not aware of any other cases in Ontario where so many affiliates were easily dragged into a serious crime. I would assume MWJ is not impressed with DM's haphazard way of leaving bread crumbs everywhere.

The evidence collected in this crime is indicative of how incompetent DM was in everything he touched. He was a born loser in a family of achievers, and thought that attribute was inherited. A born loser who needed tattoos to remind him of his perceived superiority, while allowing him to forget his constant failures.

He was only 27 at the time of his arrest, and within 6 months of his father's death, he destroyed everything his family name stood for.

DM needed competent folks (honest folks need not apply) to keep all aspects of his interests going.

So he recruited
The Mechanic
The general contractor
The real estate agent
The weird girlfriend
The drug addicted cleaning lady for the hanger

and .....

The drug dealing rapper that would be a willing partner for his most horrific 'ambition'.

On the other hand, MS was a very competent destroyer of evidence as long as DM was not involved in the planning.

MOO

 

[Ontario Mom]

IIRC there was also a shotgun/rifle (I don't know my guns but it was long and standing up) at Millard’s. I believe it was seen when they showed the videos with the bowl full of credit cards inside Maplegate. Anyone else remember this? I'll have to go take a look at earlier reports.

I know some assumed that was a long gun leaning up against the wall, but it sure didn't look like it to me. What some were calling the barrel wasn't even round like the barrel of a long gun, it was squared. Granted, could have been an optical illusion from bad lighting or something, but I never thought it looked like a gun.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

I'm convinced now (thanks to Bill's awesome timeline) that between DM and MS at least 3 handguns were acquired:
- in April 2012 (shortly after meeting Iisho in February), MS and DM discuss ammo for two separate guns
- on Sept 12 DM and Iisho discuss another .380

So even if WM was killed with a handgun and that handgun was confiscated by LE, that leaves 2 guns.
I think that MS and DM each had a gun on the night of TB's murder.
MS either got rid of his independently, or both guns ended up in the Toolbox (in this case MS could have legitimately been surprised to receive DM's weapon if he was only expecting drugs in the toolbox, but I think it more likely that MS willingly accepted the second one to dispose of and possibly profit from)
That's why, IMO, MS won't discuss the gun 'burial'

(another alternative would be that one gun was also disposed of after LB's murder - if it is standard practice to dispose of the weapon after a murder. But if they thought they were getting away with it, why not keep it?)

February 13, 2012
380 was purchased but there was confusion on it being a 380 or a 9mm gun. This would explain why the two differnt ammo's were being discussed (April 15th, 2012)

LB is murdered in July 2012

September 12, 2012
DM bought 2nd 380

WM is murdered November 29th, 2012

IMO, LB was probably murdered with the first 380, WM was 2nd to be murdered with that same 380. I'm not 100% sure how suisides work with LE when by gunshot but you'd think they'd take the gun? WM had money and probably had connections, so LE probably didn't think twice about WM getting an illegal firearm.
Now lisho is being charged with selling DM that gun and DM charged with the murder of his father. That almost tells me that LE still had the gun and traced it back to lisho.

Then May 6th, 2013 TB was murdered with the second 380 that was purchased.

I just think with DM'S saving everything, more evidence of a third gun would have been presented. We've got two.

 

[JuneBug67]

Between them they managed to disappear Tim's body, the cause of death and the murder weapon. Other than that, neither one of them was a competent evidence destroyer. As the de facto leader and provider of locations and equipment Millard had a lot more bases to cover, and he covered them poorly. MS was only in charge of his own face, the people he spoke with and his electronic devices. From that he was identified in a lineup, had everybody called to testify against him provide damaging information, had photos of fireside furniture, himself with the presumed murder weapon, damaging texts, rap lyrics that were at least in one case modified after the murder, and a rap video that singlehandedly rolled back all the careful recasting of MS for the jury.

 

[Coldpizza]

The Tim Bosma trial in 10 exhibits
CBC News Posted: May 30, 2016

Here's a look at 10 key exhibits that are playing a major role in the trial of the two men accused of the murder of Hamilton's Tim Bosma.

After four months, the jury has heard all the evidence that will be presented. Mark Smich, 28, of Oakville, Ont., and Dellen Millard, 30, of Toronto, have pleaded not guilty to first-degree murder in Ontario Superior Court.

Bosma vanished on May 6, 2013, after taking Smich and Millard on a test drive in a pickup truck he was trying to sell. ​Investigators later found charred human remains, believed to belong to Bosma, in a livestock incinerator on Millard's farm in Ayr, Ont.

 

[andreww]

Between them they managed to disappear Tim's body, the cause of death and the murder weapon. Other than that, neither one of them was a competent evidence destroyer. As the de facto leader and provider of locations and equipment Millard had a lot more bases to cover, and he covered them poorly. MS was only in charge of his own face, the people he spoke with and his electronic devices. From that he was identified in a lineup, had everybody called to testify against him provide damaging information, had photos of fireside furniture, himself with the presumed murder weapon, damaging texts, rap lyrics that were at least in one case modified after the murder, and a rap video that singlehandedly rolled back all the careful recasting of MS for the jury.

None of that stuff would ever have been found if Millard was half as good at hiding evidence as Smich was.

 

[JuneBug67]

None of that stuff would ever have been found if Millard was half as good at hiding evidence as Smich was.

What? DM had five days to hide lots of stuff, and failed. MS had sixteen days to hide or destroy a few things, and other than the gun, utterly failed. How was MS good at hiding evidence?

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

So does that mean the metal grommets found would've conclusively come from TB then and not from another source such as one of the accused clothing?

IIRC, the grommets were discovered by the forensic students who did the grid search of the areas of burned vegetation, not from the incinerator.

MOO


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[canadiangirl]

What? DM had five days to hide lots of stuff, and failed. MS had sixteen days to hide or destroy a few things, and other than the gun, utterly failed. How was MS good at hiding evidence?

And CN had a year longer. Epic fail lol

 

[Canadian4]

I'm not sure if DM had help lifting TB but if he was on drugs and had just killed someone his adreline could have given him the strength to lift alone.

 

[canadiangirl]

IIRC, the grommets were discovered by the forensic students who did the grid search of the areas of burned vegetation, not from the incinerator.

MOO


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Actually that would be incorrect
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...10&p=12363260&highlight=grommets#post12363260

Feb 17 2016 3:58 PM
Court now seeing a picture of Dr. Rogers, wearing a full tyvek suit with booties.

Feb 17 2016 3:59 PM
Metal grommets and other foreign debris were also found inside the incinerator, Huys says.

(Could these be from someone's clothing? Jeans, shoes, etc.?)

Feb 17 2016 3:59 PM
A lot of the debris was dusty, or very small. In those cases, those areas were swept into a bag in one area


Which now makes me wonder where it was stated ONLY human remains were burned in this incinerator. Off to look again MOO

 

[JuneBug67]

And CN had a year longer. Epic fail lol

Hey, stereos and horrible prose aren't cheap. Thank God though. Thank god for all the screw ups, for the lack of knowledge, for the stupid risks, for the errors and oversights and for the entire set of circumstances that got these guys caught early and often. This is such a terrible, terrible crime. It needed to be solved and it needs justice now.

 

[canadiangirl]

I can't seem to link where it says ONLY human remains were ever burned inside the incinerator. Is this a fact or a "websleuth fact"?
I have found many articles that read only ONE set of human remains were found inside the eliminator, but not that's the only thing that was burned in it.
Mainly curiosity since metal grommets were found inside the eliminator, could indicate it was used for more then burning bodies.
Evidence too perhaps? JMO

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

Is there a link to where the forensics team stated that only human remains had ever been burned in the incinerator? I have been reading through the forensics testimony and can find nothing where they determined that was the only thing that had ever been burned it it. I know they were looking for human remains and I know the bones found were identified as human. I don't know, however, if anything else was tested to determine what those ashes may have been. I also know that forensics said the incinerator had been cleaned out. If that's the case, how would they ever know that it had never been used for anything else?

I also know that the Crown made that suggestion in their cross of MS, but anything that the Crown or the defense lawyers suggest is not evidence and is not fact unless proven in other testimony.

I realize that this probably doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, but I would like to know if this is indeed a "fact" as it is being claimed to be. So if a link exists that indicates the actual forensics team stating that, it would be greatly appreciated. TIA

You are correct in that it was a suggestion (vs evidentiary fact) put to MS by the crown. I mistook those tweets to be absolute fact. Forgive me. Here are some tweets:

I firmly believe, though, that human remains were the only thing that was ever burned in the incinerator, based on the following:

1. The veterinary animal incineration was absolutely bogus, as testified to by DM's uncle.

2. This particular incinerator was sold/marketed as a livestock incinerator. DM had no livestock on his farm.

3. If DM wanted to burn garbage, he (and MS and SS) would have researched/purchased a totally different type of incinerator.

4. Dr. Rogers testified to painstakingly removing human bones, 58 human bone fragments, and vacuuming every single piece of bone ash that was in the incinerator. If she, in her highly-qualified professional opinion, believed that she was retrieving every single part of Tim that she possibly could, IMO, all that was there was human remains ... She did not testify to anything other than human remains being in that incinerator. (ETA: Thank you canadiangirl for pointing this out: Although Huys did testify to finding grommets, foreign debris, etc., which IMOO account for Tim's clothing.)

IMO, as Fraser put it, a "killing machine" ... One that MS did research on, that both MS and DM prepared, texted about, moved around, etc.

It is very reasonable to conclude that there truly was no innocent reason for the purchase of this particular incinerator, and many texts between DM and MS show it was something important to them. It is unreasonable to believe the glimmers of cryptic texts we have been privy to weren't completely expounded upon in private conversations between the two of them, who spent hours together on a near-daily basis.

I give this huge weight in my personal consideration of all of the evidence, so, to me, both DM and MS are guilty of 1st degree murder because of their complicitness in planning, executing their plan and eliminating evidence in order to cover it up.

MOO










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[andreww]

What? DM had five days to hide lots of stuff, and failed. MS had sixteen days to hide or destroy a few things, and other than the gun, utterly failed. How was MS good at hiding evidence?

What Did he fail at? For the most part nothing relevant was found on his phones. Yes they did find his iPad but most of the incriminating stuff came off of backups that were on Millard'd computer. His fingerprints were found nowhere. No gloves with his DNA were found. His clothes were gone. And finally, the gun disappeared. He never said anything to the cops and kept his mouth shut until it was time to play his hand, which he did beautifully btw.

Dellen on the other hand is writing confession letters from prison while the cops are rummaging through his phone and reading his incinerator receipt, while every rubber glove he used is being sent for testing because the moron kept them.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

Actually that would be incorrect
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...10&p=12363260&highlight=grommets#post12363260

Feb 17 2016 3:58 PM
Court now seeing a picture of Dr. Rogers, wearing a full tyvek suit with booties.

Feb 17 2016 3:59 PM
Metal grommets and other foreign debris were also found inside the incinerator, Huys says.

(Could these be from someone's clothing? Jeans, shoes, etc.?)

Feb 17 2016 3:59 PM
A lot of the debris was dusty, or very small. In those cases, those areas were swept into a bag in one area


Which now makes me wonder where it was stated ONLY human remains were burned in this incinerator. Off to look again MOO

I remembered wrong. Thank you for pointing this out.

Additional grommets were also found by students doing the grid search of the burned vegetation. I guess I was only remembering that.

ETA: I have added this to my latest post upstream. Thanks again.


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[Lexiintoronto]

Calling evidence is putting all the puzzle pieces on the table. Closing arguments is where you put them together.

- Susan Clairmont re-tweeted this comment from one of her followers.

 

[canadiangirl]

4. Dr. Rogers testified to painstakingly removing human bones, 58 human bone fragments, and vacuuming every single piece of bone ash that was in the incinerator. If she, in her highly-qualified professional opinion, believed that she was retrieving every single part of Tim that she possibly could, IMO, all that was there was human remains ... She did not testify to anything other than human remains being in that incinerator.

RSBM and BBM

So what does it mean when testified
Feb 17 2016 3:59 PM
Metal grommets and other foreign debris were also found inside the incinerator, Huys says

Dr Rogers was an expert in human remains - so that would obviously be her focus IMO

http://www.citynews.ca/2016/02/18/o...-found-bones-in-incinerator-on-accuseds-farm/
Also something I came across of interest quotes on what initial thoughts of the incinerator was.
Earlier Wednesday, Chaz Main told jurors he was riding his bike on May 10, 2013, when he came across a “big redneck smoker” on the sprawling property.
“It looked like a large barbecue to me,” Sgt. Philip Peckford said of the incinerator.

 

[Webulls]

RSBM and BBM

So what does it mean when testified
Feb 17 2016 3:59 PM
Metal grommets and other foreign debris were also found inside the incinerator, Huys says

Dr Rogers was an expert in human remains - so that would obviously be her focus IMO

http://www.citynews.ca/2016/02/18/o...-found-bones-in-incinerator-on-accuseds-farm/
Also something I came across of interest quote on what initial thoughts of the incinerator was.
Earlier Wednesday, Chaz Main told jurors he was riding his bike on May 10, 2013, when he came across a “big redneck smoker” on the sprawling property.
“It looked like a large barbecue to me,” Sgt. Philip Peckford said of the incinerator.

Do you think Tim Bosma and Laura Babcock were stripped naked before they were incinerated? Highly unlikely, especially with Tim (we know fewer details about LB's incineration). Because Tim was likely burned with his clothes on, metal grommets are commonly found in blue jeans, etc. Any other foreign debris could be from what was in his pockets, leftover debris from his shoes, belt buckle, watch, wedding ring, etc. You are not onto something, sorry to say.