Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #16

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  • #881
RSBM and BBM

So what does it mean when testified
Feb 17 2016 3:59 PM
Metal grommets and other foreign debris were also found inside the incinerator, Huys says

Dr Rogers was an expert in human remains - so that would obviously be her focus IMO

http://www.citynews.ca/2016/02/18/o...-found-bones-in-incinerator-on-accuseds-farm/
Also something I came across of interest quote on what initial thoughts of the incinerator was.
Earlier Wednesday, Chaz Main told jurors he was riding his bike on May 10, 2013, when he came across a “big redneck smoker” on the sprawling property.
“It looked like a large barbecue to me,” Sgt. Philip Peckford said of the incinerator.

I added the info re the grommets to my previous post up thread and thanked you for pointing it out. I also stated that the grommets and debris would more than likely have been from Tim's clothing ... Could also have been from a tarp or whatever Tim was wrapped in.

Yeah, well Main and Peckford had never seen one before, and didn't at that point know that the Eliminator was sold/marketed as a livestock incinerator, did they?

Anyhow, in the grand scheme of things, these are hardly salient points IMOO.


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  • #882
Do you think Tim Bosma and Laura Babcock were stripped naked before they were incinerated? Highly unlikely, especially with Tim (we know fewer details about LB's incineration). Because Tim was likely burned with his clothes on, metal grommets are commonly found in blue jeans, etc. Any other foreign debris could be from what was in his pockets, leftover debris from his shoes, belt buckle, watch, wedding ring, etc. You are not onto something, sorry to say.
I don't claim to be onto anything. So these grommets can't be from a tarp or MS hoodie?
Or even the clothes the two changed from? I'm just stating more then human remains were obviously IN the incinerator. At what time, who knows. But it's not evidence it was ONLY used for human remains.
 
  • #883
This case may not have any impact on changes to LE investigations, but it may have an impact on organized crime and how they screen potential gun buyers.

DM is/was a loose canon with the potential for much collateral damage. I am not aware of any other cases in Ontario where so many affiliates were easily dragged into a serious crime. I would assume MWJ is not impressed with DM's haphazard way of leaving bread crumbs everywhere.

The evidence collected in this crime is indicative of how incompetent DM was in everything he touched. He was a born loser in a family of achievers, and thought that attribute was inherited. ..rsbm

On the other hand, MS was a very competent destroyer of evidence as long as DM was not involved in the planning.

MOO

Yes, MS was attentive to detail. I wonder, if it is possible that there was nothing wrong with MS' arm. I tend to believe that he had pain in his shoulder, but if it was bad enough to see a doctor, as it would have been if it was dislocated, then why did he not call a doctor to give evidence his defence? The only evidence of a sore or dislocated shoulder comes from his own words. MS' credibility is somewhere in the toilet, so I'm not sure if I ought to believe him on this issue or not.

He doesn't seem smart enough to deliberately leave misleading messages about his sore shoulder, but ... he didn't support his evidence with a medical report. The lack of a report, especially if he had been to a doctor, might suggest that he did not have a serious injury, or at least not one that would prevent him from participating in the details of the mission discussed above.

Is he telling the truth, or not. Does it make any difference?
 
  • #884
What Did he fail at? For the most part nothing relevant was found on his phones. Yes they did find his iPad but most of the incriminating stuff came off of backups that were on Millard'd computer. His fingerprints were found nowhere. No gloves with his DNA were found. His clothes were gone. And finally, the gun disappeared. He never said anything to the cops and kept his mouth shut until it was time to play his hand, which he did beautifully btw.

Dellen on the other hand is writing confession letters from prison while the cops are rummaging through his phone and reading his incinerator receipt, while every rubber glove he used is being sent for testing because the moron kept them.

There is a difference between eliminating evidence and not creating new evidence. I agree that DM's machiavellianism made him a superior generator of new evidence, but MS left post-crime trails with BD and MM too. Regardless, the assertion is that he was vastly better than DM at destroying evidence. We don't know what was found on his phones, we only know what was presented at trial. A photo of the presumed murder weapon is not trivial. The data from the iPad incriminating to Smich was presented by an investigator who examined the device, not backups from Millard's. Common sense should tell you that photos and messages sent within days of the crime and rap lyrics amended after it aren't very likely to come from a backup.

Nobody's clothes were identified, unless you consider Millard's washed murse with the maybe-human-blood-maybe-not stain. No fingerprints and no gloves I agree, but isn't that likely to be a matter of luck and timing more than skill? Millard was simply in that truck longer and handled it more both before, during and after the crime. Their imperfect wipedown probably just caught all of the little evidence that Smich had an opportunity to leave and only almost all of the multiple contacts Millard had with the vehicle surfaces.

Smich wasn't there for the final round of incinerator moving with CN and DM may simply have run out of time to clean that last evidence up. Nothing that I can recall suggests that both men didn't successfully ditch their gloves previous to that.

I don't know why some seem to want to create a bit of a mythology around Smich and evidence. The only truly effective thing he did, though effective might be debatable given how bad his story looks, is disappear the gun. The rest is most logically luck and circumstance.
 
  • #885
  • #886
I added the info re the grommets to my previous post up thread and thanked you for pointing it out. I also stated that the grommets and debris would more than likely have been from Tim's clothing ... Could also have been from a tarp or whatever Tim was wrapped in.

Yeah, well Main and Peckford had never seen one before, and didn't at that point know that the Eliminator was sold/marketed as a livestock incinerator, did they?

Anyhow, in the grand scheme of things, these are hardly salient points IMOO.


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Main and Pickford had never seen one before so MS and SS had? Seems rather like a big presumption, which means it's likely others didn't know what it was for. MOO
 
  • #887
I don't claim to be onto anything. So these grommets can't be from a tarp or MS hoodie?
Yes of course. But your original post strongly indicated a belief that the incinerator was a multi-purpose device, and not solely used for burning humans (which is what is was), simply because there was some foreign debris in addition to human bones. I would be more alarmed if they did not find some foreign debris.
 
  • #888
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Having been present for his testimony as well, I had many of the same impressions as you did about his character on the stand. The only difference is that I wasn't surprised by it. I was surprised that he testified, but I expected him to show his best form to the jury. If he had gone up and behaved like Noudga did, he would have certainly done himself in.

Having some familiarity with game theory and the dynamics of cut-throat defences, I viewed Smich's testimony as a textbook play to save himself and roast Millard. It started with Dungey introducing him to the jury by saying, "We want to give you the full picture of what happened," and then proceeding to paint him in the best light possible by highlighting positive points about his work history, his dedication to his family, and how he completed his high school education while incarcerated. They even sugar-coated it by introducing his criminal record to show that, despite how amazing of a person he is, he did get mixed up in some bad things: he sold drugs, he stole things, etc. The crux of it all was to create the impression that Smich was a petty thief who was mixed up in a bad lifestyle, but despite this he was always a good guy who would never hurt anybody. From that basis, the story he would tell about the Bosma event would be much more believable.

In the end, I am left with the impression that Smich was not a scheming manipulator like Millard was. They wouldn't have been so compatible with each other if that was true. Rather, Smich looked up to Millard and developed a strong attachment to him like so many other people did. Smich was in a bad place: he was a dropout, he was addicted to booze and cigarettes, etc., and Millard offered him the support and the opportunities to make something of himself. (Note: I find it ironic that Millard wanted to help Smich get off drugs and alcohol, but he also seemed to be his main supplier). There was a real love between them and they expressed it to each other regularly.

At some point, they discovered a mutual thrill in stealing things together. I say thrill because IMO neither of them were desperate for money the way a crack addict might hold up a convenience store. They didn't need to do the things that they did, but there was an excitement in it which became an addiction of its own. As Smich wrote to Millard, "I'm ****in hungry for a mission." There was a clear excitement in these missions, particularly on Smich's behalf despite Millard being the so-called leader. Their addiction to the thrill drove them to escalate their criminal activities over time.

Everyone will draw their own conclusions as to how far they went in pursuit of the "thrill", but in my own opinion, they both discovered a thrill in killing people. Sadly it took three murders before they got caught.
Great post!
 
  • #889
I don't claim to be onto anything. So these grommets can't be from a tarp or MS hoodie?
Or even the clothes the two changed from? I'm just stating more then human remains were obviously IN the incinerator. At what time, who knows. But it's not evidence it was ONLY used for human remains.

Can it be said that because it was a livestock incinerator with no livestock or pets to burn and it wasn't an incinerator used to burn garbage or melt metal (CN), MOST PROBABLY the intent to purchase the Eliminator was to burn human remains (more than likely clothed and possibly wrapped in something)?


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  • #890
Main and Pickford had never seen one before so MS and SS had? Seems rather like a big presumption, which means it's likely others didn't know what it was for. MOO

Round and round we go on, IMHO, the tiniest and least likely of things, rather than the grand scheme of things.

But MS and DM and SS all knew it was a livestock incinerator.

I will be happy if we just agree to disagree at this point.


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  • #891
None of that stuff would ever have been found if Millard was half as good at hiding evidence as Smich was.

What is most damning that they could never hide is the security footage that followed them all across Southern Ontario.
 
  • #892
Yes, MS was attentive to detail. I wonder, if it is possible that there was nothing wrong with MS' arm. I tend to believe that he had pain in his shoulder, but if it was bad enough to see a doctor, as it would have been if it was dislocated, then why did he not call a doctor to give evidence his defence? The only evidence of a sore or dislocated shoulder comes from his own words. MS' credibility is somewhere in the toilet, so I'm not sure if I ought to believe him on this issue or not.

He doesn't seem smart enough to deliberately leave misleading messages about his sore shoulder, but ... he didn't support his evidence with a medical report. The lack of a report, especially if he had been to a doctor, might suggest that he did not have a serious injury, or at least not one that would prevent him from participating in the details of the mission discussed above.

Is he telling the truth, or not. Does it make any difference?

It doesn't make a difference, but he did complain about the shoulder long before the crime was committed. What would be the point?
 
  • #893
Yes, MS was attentive to detail. I wonder, if it is possible that there was nothing wrong with MS' arm. I tend to believe that he had pain in his shoulder, but if it was bad enough to see a doctor, as it would have been if it was dislocated, then why did he not call a doctor to give evidence his defence? The only evidence of a sore or dislocated shoulder comes from his own words. MS' credibility is somewhere in the toilet, so I'm not sure if I ought to believe him on this issue or not.

He doesn't seem smart enough to deliberately leave misleading messages about his sore shoulder, but ... he didn't support his evidence with a medical report. The lack of a report, especially if he had been to a doctor, might suggest that he did not have a serious injury, or at least not one that would prevent him from participating in the details of the mission discussed above.

Is he telling the truth, or not. Does it make any difference?
IIRC in evidence presented, there was a calendar photographed found in his room with a doctors appointment on it. I suppose he could've set that up like everything else.

And IMO it does matter if the truth was told as according to folks it would add to his credibility. So we can't have it both ways. MOO
 
  • #894
From what we know, DM liked to execute one of these missions just before leaving the country. He did it with LB when he went on a trip Croatia, and was planning to go to that BAJA in May 2013. Check his previous vacation schedule, that may help in your search.

MOO

Does anyone have DM's vacation schedule?
 
  • #895
Yes of course. But your original post strongly indicated a belief that the incinerator was a multi-purpose device, and not solely used for burning humans (which is what is was), simply because there was some foreign debris in addition to human bones. I would be more alarmed if they did not find some foreign debris.

My original post did no such thing. I stated it was not evidence that only human remains were burnt in it. And that other foreign debris was found.

As your post is indicating fact that it was only used for that purpose but I see no evidence of this?
 
  • #896
Too bad you didn't get to hear the testimony and see the video of them pulling the incinerator to the hangar and unhooking it and the truck being moved , and not one single forklift was seen .

Not sure what you're suggesting. I saw all the online videos and read the testimony as per Twitter. My response was only in reference to a question brought up by the original poster.

Not even saying they used a forklift, but merely that the texts demonstrate what might have been going through DM's mind in his potential "planning.". Like "maybe" he's thinking, "damn both of us are sore, I wonder if we can use something to lift him? We don't want to touch a bloody body anyhow." You don't have to respond to this. I know all that's been said about this point. I"ve been "present'.
 
  • #897
From Susan Clairmont.

Good to know that we will be able to read the entire transcript of the Crown's close, might be able to read the entire transcript of PIllay's close, but apparently not Dungey's.

79f4a74b8d305eda1b53d0123b0271d2.jpg




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  • #898
What is most damning that they could never hide is the security footage that followed them all across Southern Ontario.

I guess. It kind of helped investigators put the timeline together. Millard and Smich made it kind of easy for them driving nose to tail the whole time. If they had just separated those videos would be all but useless.
 
  • #899
A 2013 news report made me laugh when I re-read it, quoting his layer at the time I think, saying DM has never had a run in with the law, no criminal record (or something of those words) -- yeah, because he never got caught. We know now about lots of other illegal activity including 2 possible murders he thought he got away with.

Really, what is more criminal, grafitti under a bridge or theft of a pricey city wood chipper and a $20 +/- Bobcat?

Which reminds me, there is graffiti under the bridge near my home. Perhaps I should look for a Say10 tag.


bbm.....4-5 years ago I was stuck at a rail crossing as the 'Toyota train' tied up traffic through Cambridge. It was a long train and a very long wait so I amused myself with viewing the tags and graffiti sprayed on the double decker box cars as they passed by. Then Say10 appeared in white letters 3 feet high....it literally sent a chill through me that I have not forgotten and that was long be the Bosma incident !!!
.....sorry if I'm off topic just finishing a post I started in the a.m.
 
  • #900
My original post did no such thing. I stated it was not evidence that only human remains were burnt in it. And that other foreign debris was found.

As your post is indicating fact that it was only used for that purpose but I see no evidence of this?
Yeah it did.
 
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