Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #6

[Ironworker736]

Mark Carcasole ‏@MarkCarcGlobal 1m1 minute ago
"I saw a pickup truck, dark in colour...Smaller vehicle, they both pulled out (from his dad's property) at the same time" says Bullmann.

Other than this testimony by Rick Bullman, who obviously could not positively identify either vehicle he saw, is there any other evidence that suggests that the Yukon was in that field? IMO the Yukon doesn't present as a 'smaller' vehicle than TB's truck.

ETA - Was there tire tread impression evidence that I missed?

 

[Kamille]

Think left handed person with left hand out the driver's window, pitching an item OVER the top of the vehicle to the area to the left of the vehicle.

MOO

Had to quote myself on this as I can no longer edit but just realized I erred in the direction that the phone would be thrown over the top of the vehicle. If pitched or lobbed from the left over the vehicle it would land wherever it may land on the right side of the vehicle.

 

[Ironworker736]

According to cell phone data, Tims phone wasn't tossed until AFTER these guys turned around at Bobcat. If the battery was getting really low it may have been making alert sounds drawing the attention of the thieves. It had to have been tossed by getting out of the vehicle because it was tossed in the passenger direction into the yard (which would be very difficult for a driver unless they were a professional baseball player)? In fact, trying to access an app on a low battery could trigger an automatic shut down, at least it does on my phone.

<BBM>
I have to disagree with this. I can toss something out of either side of my vehicle quite easily, and I am definitely not a professional baseball player.

 

[billandrew]

I truly think this is a co-incidence. It does not affect nor prevent any tracking of his movements and we posted back then that he happened to have an unexpected day off to take care of things that he might have been putting off. The move from Rogers to Telus may have just been a cost cutting measure with the bonus of a new phone thrown in. If he was naive enough to think that LE couldn't track his movements, he might have actually changed phone numbers. We also don't know whether he was still in possession of his old phone, although if he was not, that would hinder LE's ability to retrieve actual text information between him and DM. However they continued to text after the 7th so I don't think that was an issue either.

MOO

I agree with you, but then I wonder why they would present this information to the jury if it's not relevant. There must be some significance to SS's phone which we will find out about later in the trial.

They also mentioned a phone number for Teresa Michalski, and said we'd be hearing testimony from Andrew. Again, there must some significance to her phone number in this trial, which we have yet to hear about.

 

[SnooperDuper]

When texts come up, they come up with the witness they were sent to. The Lisa Williams texts came up when she was on the stand. Likewise the Spencer Hussey texts. Have there been witnesses that have testified so far where you expected to see text data and didn't?

What do you mean by precision data?

The Rogers rep said a phone can ping on a tower 35 km away in rural areas. I didn't realize locating a phone could be so slushy. I had read about the advanced 911 standards that they were introducing in Canada that made it sound like they were able to pin people's locations down within 50 ft.

OTOH the crime played out over a large geography, so small distances and exact locations aren't/haven't been important so far.

I thought they might present texts all at once when a phone expert was on the stand but they way that they are doing it is a better way of telling the story. Clearer.

 

[Variant]

Mark Carcasole &#8207;@MarkCarcGlobal 1m1 minute ago
"I saw a pickup truck, dark in colour...Smaller vehicle, they both pulled out (from his dad's property) at the same time" says Bullmann.

Other than this testimony by Rick Bullman, who obviously could not positively identify either vehicle he saw, is there any other evidence that suggests that the Yukon was in that field? IMO the Yukon doesn't present as a 'smaller' vehicle than TB's truck.

ETA - Was there tire tread impression evidence that I missed?

The Yukon is more than two and a half feet shorter in length and the wheelbase more than two feet less than the Ram. If a witness saw them side by side or one following the other, I can see where a witness might describe the Yukon as smaller.

Also, the shiny wheels on the Ram observed in comparison with the black Yukon wheels could exaggerate the perception of greater length.

 

[Ironworker736]

Was it just coincidental TB's truck had the same towing hitch needed for the incinerator or was this something DM checked out while taking a quick walkaround of TB's truck prior to leaving on the drive? ALL MOO.

<RSBM>
It's not that TB's truck had the appropriate hitch. Hitches are very easily inserted or removed from the hitch receiver, so DM would have already had the appropriate hitch needed to tow the incinerator. All he would have to do is simply put it on TB's truck.

 

[SideKick]

I did not see any pictures of a burned seat frame and I've seen what I believe to be most of the pictures in this case. It's entirely possible that they exist though. I don't know if DM would have moved the seats from the farm on the morning of the 8th after burning them. I would have thought he'd put them in the barn to hide them but they may have still been hot and he certainly didn't want a fire in there. He was likely only there for an hour so he was probably in a hurry and figured he'd come back and deal with the clean up of the seats and burn area later.

They did return to the farm between the hours of 4:38pm and 5:51pm on the 9th before getting the red truck (from wherever it was) and putting TB's truck in the trailer to move it to MB's. Most likely they picked up the seat frame then IMO.

MOO

This photo on Google says it is located on General Discussion and Theories number 3 Archive. I'm having a problem finding it, but, would this be the picture of the burned seat you recall?

 

[Ironworker736]

The Yukon is more than two and a half feet shorter in length and the wheelbase more than two feet less than the Ram. If a witness saw them side by side or one following the other, I can see where a witness might describe the Yukon as smaller.

Also, the shiny wheels on the Ram observed in comparison with the black Yukon wheels could exaggerate the perception of greater length.

<BBM>
But he didn't see them side by side. He testified that he saw them pulling out, one after the other. I get that the Yukon may be a bit shorter (although I thought DM's was the longer wheelbase model), but I don't personally think it's such a difference that I would specifically describe it as a "smaller vehicle". The Yukon is still a large vehicle IMO.
And I only ask because everyone seems convinced that the Yukon was in that field and wondered if it's based solely on this testimony, or if there is some other testimony that I have missed. If you can link further testimony, I'd really appreciate it. TIA

ETA - I just noticed you included "one following the other". And I just checked Edmund's...less than 1 foot length difference.
18'-3.3" for the Yukon...19'-1.7" for the Ram, plus I think the full body of the Yukon would create an illusion of being larger, more so than the shiny rim illusion you mention.

 

[Typhoo1961]

Had to quote myself on this as I can no longer edit but just realized I erred in the direction that the phone would be thrown over the top of the vehicle. If pitched or lobbed from the left over the vehicle it would land wherever it may land on the right side of the vehicle.

I had wondered about that post of yours but declined to comment on it in case I was reading it wrong.

 

[Errrr]

Somebody mentioned that in the video of DM and MS picking up MM at her apartment, that MS handed MM something that she put in her bag. I wonder if that could have been the burner phone she bought him?

 

[Kamille]

This photo on Google says it is located on General Discussion and Theories number 3 Archive. I'm having a problem finding it, but, would this be the picture of the burned seat you recall?

Thanks...yes that appears to be the one in question and has been posted, complete with mounted LE officers, earlier in the thread. I did not get seat frame from it but others did. And there are good arguments one way and the other as to whether that is the frame from the missing seat in DM's Yukon.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

<BBM>
But he didn't see them side by side. He testified that he saw them pulling out, one after the other. I get that the Yukon may be a bit shorter (although I thought DM's was the longer wheelbase model), but I don't personally think it's such a difference that I would specifically describe it as a "smaller vehicle". The Yukon is still a large vehicle IMO.
And I only ask because everyone seems convinced that the Yukon was in that field and wondered if it's based solely on this testimony, or if there is some other testimony that I have missed. If you can link further testimony, I'd really appreciate it. TIA

ETA - I just noticed you included "one following the other". And I just checked Edmund's...less than 1 foot length difference.
18'-3.3" for the Yukon...19'-1.7" for the Ram, plus I think the full body of the Yukon would create an illusion of being larger, more so than the shiny rim illusion you mention.

I think the other evidence that is convincing that the Yukon was parked in the field is the time that it passed by the Super Sucker Vacumm business the first time going south and the time it took for then to get to TB's home on foot. They parked it somewhere. Considering someone saw a black pick up truck and a "smaller" dark vehicle exiting that field in exactly the right time frame is way too co-incidental to not take that as a strong witness indication it was the two vehicles.

I have also seen all the videos of the two trucks in motion one after the other. While they are difficult to make out, I personally consider the Yukon to appear "smaller" even though technically is is not that much smaller.

MOO

 

[napper505]

<RSBM>
It's not that TB's truck had the appropriate hitch. Hitches are very easily inserted or removed from the hitch receiver, so DM would have already had the appropriate hitch needed to tow the incinerator. All he would have to do is simply put it on TB's truck.

Agreed! but one would need to know what size receiver was on the TB truck. Otherwise the Yukon would have been used.

Was the receiver size quoted in the Kijiji ad? I dunno, I have never looked at in detail. If not it would be something that would have to be discussed during a phone conversation or a text.

It would be one of the first questions I would ask if was buying a vehicle for towing reasons. The truck could have had a custom receiver.

Note: There was no hitch in the receiver of the "TB" truck images
nor the Yukon.

Napper

 

[Ironworker736]

I think the other evidence that is convincing that the Yukon was parked in the field is the time that it passed by the Super Sucker Vacumm business the first time going south and the time it took for then to get to TB's home on foot. They parked it somewhere. Considering someone saw a black pick up truck and a "smaller" dark vehicle exiting that field in exactly the right time frame is way too co-incidental to not take that as a strong witness indication it was the two vehicles.

I have also seen all the videos of the two trucks in motion one after the other. While they are difficult to make out, I personally consider the Yukon to appear "smaller" even though technically is is not that much smaller.

MOO

So aside from Bullman's vague description of the "dark coloured truck" and "the smaller vehicle", seen from a distance, in low light, at an approximate time (he didn't consult the CRCC lol), it is based on the SS video and them walking? Forgive me playing devil's advocate here, but that hypothesis does not rule out the defence claim of being dropped off by the 3rd party that LE was aggressively searching for in the initial phase of the investigation. I take it there was no tire tread evidence (so far)? And no broken glass evidence presented (so far)?

 

[Ironworker736]

Agreed! but one would need to know what size receiver was on the TB truck. Otherwise the Yukon would have been used.

Was the receiver size quoted in the Kijiji ad? I dunno, I have never looked at in detail. If not it would be something that would have to be discussed during a phone conversation or a text.

It would be one of the first questions I would ask if was buying a vehicle for towing reasons. The truck could have had a custom receiver.

Note: There was no hitch in the receiver of the "TB" truck images
nor the Yukon.

Napper

I'm pretty certain that hitch receivers for full-size vehicles are standard sized. All the one's I've ever used have been, anyway, and I've used many.

ETA - I have seen the dinky little receivers on vehicles such as a KIA Sorento...that's not what we'd be dealing with here lol IMO

 

[ABro]

So aside from Bullman's vague description of the "dark coloured truck" and "the smaller vehicle", seen from a distance, in low light, at an approximate time (he didn't consult the CRCC lol), it is based on the SS video and them walking? Forgive me playing devil's advocate here, but that hypothesis does not rule out the defence claim of being dropped off by the 3rd party that LE was aggressively searching for in the initial phase of the investigation. I take it there was no tire tread evidence (so far)? And no broken glass evidence presented (so far)?

Well, the defence is free to call the third party if it helps their case.

 

[Prairie_dawg]

Thanks...yes that appears to be the one in question and has been posted, complete with mounted LE officers, earlier in the thread. I did not get seat frame from it but others did. And there are good arguments one way and the other as to whether that is the frame from the missing seat in DM's Yukon.

MOO

The OTHER photos will not be found here as they were removed. The photos that I think showed the early burn patches were included with the first incinerator pics and excavator pics etc. They were submitted by a person that was on that property regularly. The pics mysteriously disappeared as they had appeared before MSM had reported anything being found on the farm. These are the ones some of us are referring to. There were NO LE in the photos. Alot of us started feeling ill when we first saw them as we were by then putting two and two together. They were only up for a very short time. AS I said in another post alot of early postings have disappeared, not just ones with photos. JMO

 

[napper505]

I'm pretty certain that hitch receivers for full-size vehicles are standard sized. All the one's I've ever used have been, anyway, and I've used many.

ETA - I have seen the dinky little receivers on vehicles such as a KIA Sorento...that's not what we'd be dealing with here lol IMO

Again I agree, what I was trying to say was that it might have been a larger size heavy duty receiver. Something that would have to be discussed. It was a 3500HD afterall.

see some examples

https://www.etrailer.com/faq-hitch-size.aspx

 

[Ironworker736]

Well, the defence is free to call the third party if it helps their case.

Don't get me wrong, I feel that not being in that field actually helps the Crown in proving the forcible confinement charge.