Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #6

[billandrew]

A couple of years ago, a user on this forum asked if there could be any connection between Dellen Millard and Vanessa Fotheringham, a girl who went missing from London, Ontario on February 16, 2012.

At the time, it seems most people viewed the idea as far-fetched. I am curious as to what people think about this today. Still far-fetched? Would LE have investigated this potential link already? London is about a 2 hour drive from Toronto.

Canada missing persons profile: https://www.services.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/missing-disparus/case-dossier.jsf?case=2012001999&id=0

 

[Claroon]

Not sure if the tower comes in earlier, but some airports have arrangements with CYYZ for clearances after hours. Hard to say how many people are there first thing in the morning and there could be ground crew there specifically for that flight. By the time the sun came up, DM & MS were in clean up mode. You're correct, it's extremely laid back and DM knew the hours well. MO

That hangar is very far away from any airport action. The only people he needed to avert were his own staff or visitors to his hangar. IMO.

 

[Claroon]

I'm with you that I don't believe it matters at exactly what time, exactly in which location, or even exactly who pulled the trigger, however some seem to feel that information is necessary to have in order to get a conviction. This case is built piece by piece by piece, mostly with circumstantial evidence, and I think it makes some people uncomfortable to put accuseds away for 25 years without more concrete, direct evidence. Just basing that on some posts I have read here over time. Moo.

The good thing is that the judge has already advised the jury (and will again) that circumstantial evidence is no less in weight than direct evidence, and that the entirety of all the evidence must be weighed once it is all in, before their collective decision is made.

In MOO there is plenty of evidence especially compared to some trials. Here's a point I made too that no one responded to. Yes a bullet, yes, blood, but what if he was still alive when put in the incinerator? How do we know. Just bleeding out dying. If it took 2 people to lift him, they are both guilty of that. IMO speculating.

 

[Claroon]

Photos taken with prohibited firearms, large incinerator purchased and hidden away in a barn, stolen vehicles, people disappearing, people getting shot, etc. I cannot wait to hear the defense's side of this story.

I suspect they will poke away at technicalities regarding notes, time stamps, etc. and it will be long and boring.

 

[matou]

I remember seeing the computer info slides and AM's password was showing for either his Steam account or phone. Then it was covered over.

 

[Claroon]

It's a reasonable supposition that something happened to prompt the stop at the Bobcat. It's hard to figure how or why that stop would have been planned. IF the stop was related to the sounds there has to be a limited number of possibilities. Planned or unplanned gunshot(s) have to be considered. I wonder what a tire blowing out would sound like? I wonder if the acoustics there would have set up an echo? Perhaps one boom and an echoed boom, followed by a bang? I just imagined a tire blowing, freaking out the idiot holding the gun, who discharges the weapon. I realize how wildly thin that speculation is. LOL.

IMO the video professional would have been remiss not to report the sounds he identified no matter what caused them. They are an important detail. But not so important they have to prove what it was.

 

[Tealgrove]

Well here's one for everyone. Clearly I have way too much time on my hands. In any event, MM's name has been sticking with me. Like I know it but can't place how. She looked familiar to me as well. I started nosing around online and found another name which I was quite sure that I knew. I sent a text to my nephew who lives in Ottawa and asked if he had gone to school with either MM or the other person. It was a shot in the dark.

I very quickly got an answer back and now I know why I knew the name MM. My nephew dated her for a very short period of time. I met her once. They didn't date long. As my nephew phrased it..."she wasn't my cup of tea once I got to know her".

What a small world.

 

[ABro]

I remember seeing the computer info slides and AM's password was showing for either his Steam account or phone. Then it was covered over.

That's possible. The pub ban only covered phone numbers but some media may have decided to edit out other contacts like Skype, email, etc.

 

[Kamille]

A couple of years ago, a user on this forum asked if there could be any connection between Dellen Millard and Vanessa Fotheringham, a girl who went missing from London, Ontario on February 16, 2012.

At the time, it seems most people viewed the idea as far-fetched. I am curious as to what people think about this today. Still far-fetched? Would LE have investigated this potential link already? London is about a 2 hour drive from Toronto.

Canada missing persons profile: https://www.services.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/missing-disparus/case-dossier.jsf?case=2012001999&id=0

Pretty sure that the murders DM has been accused of have a personal connection to him in some way. He certainly didn't need to troll a town 2 hrs away to find a woman who had substance abuse problems. According to him, they came to him (LB). All three murders, IMO, are as a result of something DM felt he needed to do to make things better or easier for him. I don't think he's a serial killer with a thirst for blood that was just driving around looking for vulnerable people to kill.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

That hangar is very far away from any airport action. The only people he needed to avert were his own staff or visitors to his hangar. IMO.

And airport security IMO.

 

[Ironworker736]

MS didn't want the truck, DM did. The whole truck theft plan was his idea, for his personal gain. He was the "ringleader" IMO.

MOO

Here's what I can't understand...
DM is the ringleader. He allegedly had a chop shop going in his hangar. There were stolen vehicles there when he was arrested, and I imagine countless others had passed through that hangar. After stealing so many vehicles and apparently knowing how to do just that, why does it suddenly change to an M.O. of calling, meeting and killing the target vehicle's owner? It makes no sense at all. And the psychopath reasoning is only speculation resulting from the presumption of guilt in cases yet to be tried IMO. So can someone please tell me why the act of stealing a vehicle, something they apparently are already good at, suddenly turns into this ridiculous, murderous mess? IMO it's just not as simple as some are seeing it. There's got to be more to the story. I mean, even the stolen Harley found in the hangar was previously listed on Kijiji, so mining the site for target vehicles may have already been a tactic they were employing, without killing the owner. TIA

ETA - and is it typical for the proprietor (ringleader) of an illegal chop shop to acquire the stolen vehicles himself? IMO he'd have some of his "entourage" do his dirty work for him, wouldn't he?

 

[MsSherlock]

That hangar is very far away from any airport action. The only people he needed to avert were his own staff or visitors to his hangar. IMO.

It may seem far away physically but it would still be visible from the Control tower and any strange action like a burst of flames would stand a good chance of getting the towers attention. You have to remember airports are under Federal jurisdiction. People just can't do anything they want air side, since the activity may ultimately have an impact on airplane safety. Control towers have windows all around them so they can see the whole airfield and keep aircraft safe from unexpected events. ie) pieces of paper flying across the runway, ashes/smoke, flying debris/garbage, birds, animals/people/vehicles on the runway etc.

Waterloo tower looks after both air and ground. DM knew airports well. He was a ramp rat at Pearson. He definitely knew what Controllers do and the fact that they're also known to use some pretty high powered binoculars if they need to get a closer look at something or if they were just plain nosy. IMO, they wouldn't be thinking about nefarious activities, rather they'd be concerned about a flash fire. Was it an uncontrolled fire or incident at the hangar that could result in dangerous flying object debris (FOD) or smoke? IMO, during regular night time hours the Controllers would have contacted Airport Management to confirm the activity or investigate it and make sure there was no danger to aircraft landing or taking off.

The premeditation was obvious when they told TB they'd be there earlier and not showing up until 9. Sunset on May 6th/13 was 8.27 pm. By the time they got back to the farm and then to the airport, it was shut down for the night giving them privacy for the 5 hours they needed. IMO, MS wouldn't even be thinking about airport logistics- he had total faith that DM knew what he was doing. Seems like DM knew how long it was going to take- perhaps he was familiar with burning more than garbage in the Eliminator. MOO

 

[Tealgrove]

Here's what I can't understand...
DM is the ringleader. He allegedly had a chop shop going in his hangar. There were stolen vehicles there when he was arrested, and I imagine countless others had passed through that hangar. After stealing so many vehicles and apparently knowing how to do just that, why does it suddenly change to an M.O. of calling, meeting and killing the target vehicle's owner? It makes no sense at all. And the psychopath reasoning is only speculation resulting from the presumption of guilt in cases yet to be tried IMO. So can someone please tell me why the act of stealing a vehicle, something they apparently are already good at, suddenly turns into this ridiculous, murderous mess? IMO it's just not as simple as some are seeing it. There's got to be more to the story. I mean, even the stolen Harley found in the hangar was previously listed on Kijiji, so mining the site for target vehicles may have already been a tactic they were employing, without killing the owner. TIA

ETA - and is it typical for the proprietor (ringleader) of an illegal chop shop to acquire the stolen vehicles himself? IMO he'd have some of his "entourage" do his dirty work for him, wouldn't he?

EXACTLY! I have all the same questions you have.

I did a bit of research (not in depth), but what I found was that typically the "owner" of the chop shop bought the vehicles from someone who steals them. Then makes his money from selling the stolen parts which are more valuable than the entire vehicle as a whole. I surmised that MAYBE DM decided to take out the middle man and make more money by stealing them himself. Made sense to me.

I'm never going to understand how Tim Bosma was murdered because of a truck. I cannot wrap my head around it. I really can't because I too believe that if the truck was the primary motivator there was NO NEED for murder. NONE! Just go steal the truck you want. Clearly they knew how.

Somewhere in this sad and sordid ordeal, I wholeheartedly believe that MURDER became an essential part of the exercise. It wasn't just about the truck. The thrill of the kill somehow became entangled in the enterprise. IMO they arrived at the Bosma house with MURDER IN MIND.

Maybe, MM, AM, SS, CN can shed some light on this for us because it's my BIG question.

 

[matou]

the texts between DM and SH are here @2:49 EXHIBIT #104. They are very blurry FWIW. Two pages.

http://www.chch.com/bosma-day-23/

 

[Ironworker736]

EXACTLY! I have all the same questions you have.

I did a bit of research (not in depth), but what I found was that typically the "owner" of the chop shop bought the vehicles from someone who steals them. Then makes his money from selling the stolen parts which are more valuable than the entire vehicle as a whole. I surmised that MAYBE DM decided to take out the middle man and make more money by stealing them himself. Made sense to me.

I'm never going to understand how Tim Bosma was murdered because of a truck. I cannot wrap my head around it. I really can't because I too believe that if the truck was the primary motivator there was NO NEED for murder. NONE! Just go steal the truck you want. Clearly they knew how.

Somewhere in this sad and sordid ordeal, I wholeheartedly believe that MURDER became an essential part of the exercise. It wasn't just about the truck. The thrill of the kill somehow became entangled in the enterprise. IMO they arrived at the Bosma house with MURDER IN MIND.

Maybe, MM, AM, SS, CN can shed some light on this for us because it's my BIG question.

I'm starting to really believe that the killing was the main objective as well, but I have a hard time with the "thrill kill" theory, for several reasons. If you wanted to commit a murder for the thrill of it, would you not go out of your way to avoid witnesses? Why go to the victim's house and leave with him, after being seen by two​ eyewitnesses from as close as 10 feet away, and then continue with the murder? That makes no sense to me either IMO. So what are we missing?

 

[JuneBug67]

EXACTLY! I have all the same questions you have.

I did a bit of research (not in depth), but what I found was that typically the "owner" of the chop shop bought the vehicles from someone who steals them. Then makes his money from selling the stolen parts which are more valuable than the entire vehicle as a whole. I surmised that MAYBE DM decided to take out the middle man and make more money by stealing them himself. Made sense to me.

I'm never going to understand how Tim Bosma was murdered because of a truck. I cannot wrap my head around it. I really can't because I too believe that if the truck was the primary motivator there was NO NEED for murder. NONE! Just go steal the truck you want. Clearly they knew how.

Somewhere in this sad and sordid ordeal, I wholeheartedly believe that MURDER became an essential part of the exercise. It wasn't just about the truck. The thrill of the kill somehow became entangled in the enterprise. IMO they arrived at the Bosma house with MURDER IN MIND.

Maybe, MM, AM, SS, CN can shed some light on this for us because it's my BIG question.

Although we may never know, IMO there is a great deal of evidence that points away from murder being part of Plan A. Far more than suggests it I think. Which makes the loss of Tim even more gut wrenching, if that's possible. I'm not sure I've ever hated a crime as much as I hate this one. It just gets to me in a really big way, as I know it does many others as well.

 

[JuneBug67]

I'm starting to really believe that the killing was the main objective as well, but I have a hard time with the thrill kill theory, for several reasons. If you wanted to commit a murder for the thrill of it, would you not go out of your way to avoid witnesses? Why go to the victims house and leave with him, after being seen by two​ eyewitnesses from as close as 10 feet away, and then continue with the murder? That makes no sense to me either IMO. So what are we missing?

If the killing was planned and a key objective these two are stone cold morons. It may as well have been a master class on how to get caught. I don't think they're stone cold morons. I would have to see something we haven't seen yet to believe this murder was planned.

 

[Tealgrove]

I'm starting to really believe that the killing was the main objective as well, but I have a hard time with the "thrill kill" theory, for several reasons. If you wanted to commit a murder for the thrill of it, would you not go out of your way to avoid witnesses? Why go to the victims house and leave with him, after being seen by two​ eyewitnesses from as close as 10 feet away, and then continue with the murder? That makes no sense to me either IMO. So what are we missing?

We are missing the biggest piece of the puzzle. The WHY. And we may never know unless somebody "in the know" speaks up. The Crown doesn't have to provide motive, and they haven't, which tells me that they can't prove WHY either.

We may never know.

 

[Ironworker736]

We are missing the biggest piece of the puzzle. The WHY. And we may never know unless somebody "in the know" speaks up. The Crown doesn't have to provide motive, and they haven't, which tells me that they can't prove WHY either.

We may never know.

Well, unlike a previous poster commented, I actually believe the defence presentation just might be really, really interesting. JMO

 

[Tealgrove]

Although we may never know, IMO there is a great deal of evidence that points away from murder being part of Plan A. Far more than suggests it I think. Which makes the loss of Tim even more gut wrenching, if that's possible. I'm not sure I've ever hated a crime as much as I hate this one. It just gets to me in a really big way, as I know it does many others as well.

I hear you, but....I can't fathom owning an animal cremator when you don't own livestock. I get drawn back to this every time I try make sense of everything but I can't. That Eliminator was not meant for animals, furniture, mice or rats at the hanger. IMO it was purchased with a plan in mind. Who spends $15,000.00 on an animal cremator? Who?

I would love to get inside DM's mind. I really would because it think there's a lot of diabolical thoughts going on in there. As blasé as this may sound, I think he got bored with his life. He wanted to live on the edge, whether it be racing jeeps in the Baha or playing El Capo with his entourage or killing people for the hell of it and the rush.

MOO