Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #7

[Massasauga Rattler]

Why didn't DM ensure JV was paid? DM told JV he was going to pay him, went to the bank, picked up $3k, got arrested - and then neither DM nor MB followed up and paid DM's loyal, long-time handyman that had been by his side for years and even taught him Spanish.

So why a payday for Whidden (when it is grey whether she deserved it or not) but none for JV, when DM at least initially moved to pay him?

I don't think Whidden deserves any credit for providing the bare minimum amount of cooperation demanded by the law. She does deserve to be called out for it, though.

If JV was not paid in the end, he should have filed a lien on the properties he was working on for which he did not receive compensation. Contractors pull that all the time.

 

[SnooperDuper]

If JV was not paid in the end, he should have filed a lien on the properties he was working on for which he did not receive compensation. Contractors pull that all the time.

I don't think JV was savvy about business matters, whether that be taxes, benefits, overtime, or whatever. If he didn't file a lien that just speaks to his inexperience, doesn't it? JV seemed to be almost fearful of testifying.

 

[billandrew]

BBM. The problem is its still the top of the inning and the other team is yet to bat. IMO Millard needs to prove that it was never his idea to steal the truck. A bank account with more than $25K in it would go a long way towards proving that. If he can convince the jury that money wasn't an issue, then he's halfway there. All he would have to do is suggest Smich pulled the trigger. Remember, neither defendant has denied that they were there, and that is all that LE has proven.

This is how I see DM's defense going also, and I don't think he'll have a problem demonstrating that he could have bought the truck. Whether he wanted to buy the truck is another issue, and I think this is where he will have trouble if several key witnesses testify that he had plans to steal it.

 

[MsSherlock]

Lets not rule out that there may have been a third person involved. I find it very interesting that LE is not really attempting to put any detail to this crime, only laying out evidence to conclusively show that Smich and Millard were both present. That is it. The don't ever try to fill in the blanks like who, when or why. The are laying out evidence and trusting the jury to come to their own conclusions. But yes, it is totally possible that a third person may have been present, their car being left at the farm or possibly close to the hangar (the reason why someone left for a short period right after their arrival at the hangar). And nothing to say TB wasn't killed at the farm house either?

My guess is that LE does not have to prove the "who" part of the equation because from what I understand that given the circumstances of the crime, they'd both be guilty of 1st degree murder. That leaves me wondering what the defence strategies are going to be? If Millard were to say Smich shot him while they were both stealing the truck, wouldn't that still qualify as 1st degree? So Millard is going to have to prove that he was sincerely interested in purchasing the truck, that Smich brought the gun and that Smich shot him. If he can convince the jury of all three things, he would only be looking at accessory after the fact charges. Can he do it?

Smith on the other hand has a few more hurdles to overcome. The gun has been linked to his hand in those Facebook photos. He also turned off his phone prior to going to TBs home. If he were under the illusion that this was to be a legitimate transaction, why would he go silent at that precise moment? We also have Smich disposing of the gun. If he were going blame this on Millard, why not hand over the gun? We have him bragging to his girlfriend that the owner is gone gone gone. Not the kind of reaction I would expect from a kid who was just unwittingly tied in to a murder.

Finally, lets not forget that Millard likely has a far better legal team as he has the money to spend. My guess is that Smich will come out looking the worst when all this is said and done. Whether the jury believes it will be another story.

IMO, I think we can definitely rule out the third person. The Crown is 3/4's of the way thru their case and none of the evidence points towards there ever being a 3rd person. IIRC, there's also an evidence pic of a hand holding the gun and the fingerprint analysis shows that it is DM holding it. They both liked the gun(s)
There's really no smoke and mirrors here. The volume of forensic evidence, video and text messages along with time stamped pics of the truck in DM's hangar is an incredible mountain for either of the D's to climb, but climb they must because they're trying to provide their clients with the best defence possible. IMHO, people have been convicted on less. Are DM or MS going to take the stand in their defence? Jodie Arias took the stand and did nothing but provide the Jury with more reason to send her away. MOO

 

[Alethea Dice]

Susan ClairmontVerified account ‏@susanclairmont Mar 22
Talked about Baja. She says they didn't talk about driving a truck to Baja...Was sent a $10,000 cheque from Millard's mother.

Seems you heard something different than the reporters did.



LE didn't need a warrant for her phone http://globalnews.ca/news/1721144/police-can-search-cellphones-without-warrant-during-arrest-court/

It's obvious LW's cooperation was limited to what she was compelled to do by law. She didn't give in for a second.



Interesting, I wonder why we did not hear that "story" from phone records?

Funny, I saw the "story" in the tweets from the trial.

And, yes, unless LW was a "suspect" in the murder, LE does need a warrant for her phone records. What was the basis for her arrest? What was she being charged with? Anything?

A divided Supreme Court of Canada has ruled that police can conduct a limited search of suspect’s cellphone without getting a search warrant, but they must follow strict rules.

What rules must police follow to search a cellphone during arrest? By a 4-3 margin, the court said in a precedent-setting ruling that the search must be directly related to the circumstances of a person's arrest and the police must keep detailed records of the search.

http://globalnews.ca/news/1721144/police-can-search-cellphones-without-warrant-during-arrest-court/

I've found that the tweets don't cover a lot of the cross by defence. Although, one reported the DM's defence crosses are long, I haven't noticed that in the tweets. Until JV's testimony, I had wondered how much cross was actually happening. JMO

 

[Inspector_North]

All we know is that the two of them went to steal a truck and TB ended up dead. It looks like we are going to have to decide from the defence side of the case what exactly happened. That is, unless one of these guys told the whole story to one of the girlfriends.

We also know the Eliminator was designed to be mobile and was all fueled up.
We know they had a gun
and yes we know DM wanted diesel truck that was the same make as his red one.


The SS and LW_2 text messages were the first we seen directly related to post TB murder, and I expect more of that type in the coming days. It will be the defense side to try to disprove what the crown is showing to be exactly what happened.

Look, these guys were involved in a chop shop for some time, and I am of RB's line of thinking about the character of DM. They were bold punks, and putting a gun in their possession was a serious crime asking to happen.

 

[andreww]

IMO, I think we can definitely rule out the third person. The Crown is 3/4's of the way thru their case and none of the evidence points towards there ever being a 3rd person. IIRC, there's also an evidence pic of a hand holding the gun and the fingerprint analysis shows that it is DM holding it. They both liked the gun(s)
There's really no smoke and mirrors here. The volume of forensic evidence, video and text messages along with time stamped pics of the truck in DM's hangar is an incredible mountain for either of the D's to climb, but climb they must because they're trying to provide their clients with the best defence possible. IMHO, people have been convicted on less. Are DM or MS going to take the stand in their defence? Jodie Arias took the stand and did nothing but provide the Jury with more reason to send her away. MOO

Remember, the cops originally thought it was three people. Im guessing because none of the other key players phones pinged in that area, cops settled on two. But all that tells us is that if there was three people, LE simply doesn't know the identity of that person. Maybe it was this mysterious "Scott" person?

And I'm guessing we might see Millard take the stand. I think he's the type that believes he could sway the jury with his charm.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Funny, I saw the "story" in the tweets from the trial.

And, yes, unless LW was a "suspect" in the murder, LE does need a warrant for her phone records. What was the basis for her arrest? What was she being charged with? Anything?

A divided Supreme Court of Canada has ruled that police can conduct a limited search of suspect’s cellphone without getting a search warrant, but they must follow strict rules.

What rules must police follow to search a cellphone during arrest? By a 4-3 margin, the court said in a precedent-setting ruling that the search must be directly related to the circumstances of a person's arrest and the police must keep detailed records of the search.

http://globalnews.ca/news/1721144/police-can-search-cellphones-without-warrant-during-arrest-court/

I've found that the tweets don't cover a lot of the cross by defence. Although, one reported the DM's defence crosses are long, I haven't noticed that in the tweets. Until JV's testimony, I had wondered how much cross was actually happening. JMO

You can be arrested without charge for investigation, and if there are grounds for charges, LE will proceed from there. MM was also arrested and not charged.

I think we had more of the JV cross tweeted because it was slower: JV was asked a question, answered in Spanish, that was translated, repeat. That probably allowed the tweeters to get more out.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Remember, the cops originally thought it was three people. Im guessing because none of the other key players phones pinged in that area, cops settled on two. But all that tells us is that if there was three people, LE simply doesn't know the identity of that person. Maybe it was this mysterious "Scott" person?

And I'm guessing we might see Millard take the stand. I think he's the type that believes he could sway the jury with his charm.

Initially, the crime was easier to understand if there were 3 parties...but that's before LE discovered that DM and MS had parked the Yukon in the shrubbery instead of being dropped off by a mystery third person that had gone to Timmies.

I agree DM thinks "[his] tongue's the only muscle on my body that works harder than [his] heart". I don't think his defence will let him take the stand, though.

 

[billandrew]

I've still yet to see proof that MS was there. Yes his phone was there, and yes he was there personally at the hanger later than night, BUT was he personally there at the time of the murder. SB did not yet positively identify him as the second guy in the driveway. His prints or blood are also not on anything, as far as I remember. So you can bet the defense strategy for MS is going to be amplifying the fact that his presence there has not been proven, and they will no doubt try to raise reasonable doubt to that effect. At this stage I think the jury will wrestle with the MS verdict. That said, DM is toast.

IMO your argument about proving whether MS was personally present for the murder goes both ways. DM could just as easily argue that he wasn't present for the actual murder. What we have is a large mosaic of circumstantial evidence to support that both DM and MS initially got into the truck with TB (i.e. they were present before the murder), and a similar mosaic of evidence to support that DM and MS were present after the murder.

Sure, there is more evidence against DM (fingerprints, DNA, etc.), but consider the evidence against MS as well:

• he was present on the test drive with Igor
• the cell tower data places his phone in the right place at the right time
• two witnesses saw a man of his general description get into the truck with TB
• the hangar video
• he's on video escorting MM into the Yukon the morning after TB's murder
• etc., etc.

 

[iluvmua]

Has CN trial started yet?

 

[Inspector_North]

Remember, the cops originally thought it was three people. Im guessing because none of the other key players phones pinged in that area, cops settled on two. But all that tells us is that if there was three people, LE simply doesn't know the identity of that person. Maybe it was this mysterious "Scott" person?

And I'm guessing we might see Millard take the stand. I think he's the type that believes he could sway the jury with his charm.

Maybe they first thought Luke Bates was a real person. And the fact that they had two vehicles to drive away in so close to Tim's house, makes you wonder how they did it with only two. But some how they did.

If DM takes the stand, I would say he seals his future, for at least 25.

 

[Inspector_North]

Has CN trial started yet?

I believe it starts early 2017.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Has CN trial started yet?

No, it hasn't.

 

[Sillybilly]

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[andreww]

We also know the Eliminator was designed to be mobile and was all fueled up.
We know they had a gun
and yes we know DM wanted diesel truck that was the same make as his red one.


The SS and LW_2 text messages were the first we seen directly related to post TM murder, and I expect more of that type in the coming days. It will be the defense side to try to disprove what the crown is showing to be exactly what happened.

Look, these guys were involved in a chop shop for some time, and I am of RB's line of thinking about the character of DM. They were bold punks, and putting a gun in their possession was a serious crime asking to happen.

We also know the Eliminator was designed to be mobile and was all fueled up.

Why wasn't it where they needed it to be? At the hangar?

We know they had a gun

We know one of them probably did.

and yes we know DM wanted diesel truck that was the same make as his red one.

Yes he was shopping for one, but we also know he already had a perfectly capable truck. Wasn't there talk of entering a second car that year? Maybe TB's truck would allow Smich to be part of a second team?


We all know there has been talk of Millard being cash strapped, but there is a huge difference in not being able to come up with the cash for a million dollar condo and coming up with $25K for a truck. JV said Millard was certainly late paying at times, but he seemed to always get paid. There hasn't been any testimony about Millard not being able to bay his bills and plans were underway to develop the farm property. And bottom line, he could have just used the old gas truck! Was this a big enough issue to kill someone over? And if they wanted the truck, why not go in the middle of the night and hot-wire it?

And I hear you about the chop shop. But what chop shop?

 

[andreww]

If DM takes the stand, I would say he seals his future, for at least 25.

I agree 100% on that!

 

[RandomName479]

Just my opinion.....but if someone was missing (ie: TB) and I had any contact with the person who was arrested for it (ie: DM) and I am completely innocent.....I would be handing over ANY and ALL evidence without making LE get a warrant (ie: my phone - even if I felt the info on it was irrelevant) on the off chance something may help LE locate the missing person. Any other actions IMO are entirely suspicious and show a lack of human compassion.

Someone said that LW2 "promised" not to delete anything while they got a warrant....that made me laugh. "I promise not to delete anything"......ummm....ok then....no problem.....seriously?

 

[Alethea Dice]

I can't see much in way of sexual bias as much as I can see a difference between the people DM had in his inner circle and those who are just telling it like it is. There's a long list of witnesses that have just sworn on the bible and answered the questions as honestly as they could (can). i.e.) RB, JV, AJ, IT. Then there are those who have closer ties to DM and for one reason or another have been apprehensive in providing "society" via the Courts a fulsome accounting of everything they knew. i.e.) SS, LW1, LW2. More like they're hostile witnesses? The common denominator with those on the latter list is that all 3 of them had financial ties with DM by means of MB's after DM was arrested. Perhaps a type of psychological loyalty? IMO, we as a society have reasonable expectations that once caught, murderers will be punished to the fullest extent of the law, ensuring that no one will fall victim to them in the future.

There has been no evidence to indicate that SS or either of the LW's know more than they what they have told or have been dishonest in any of their answers. In fact, SS isn't even done testifying yet. And I don't know why anyone would think that the bookkeeper or real estate agent would have fuller knowledge, regardless of what their personal association was. JMO

It took a "no strings attached" stranger (IT) to put two and two together and call LE with his story, while at the same time, AJ was pacing back and forth worrying about the truck sitting in the middle of DM's hangar. Why did a complete stranger worry more about the welfare of TB when DM's friends and co-workers seem to have taken a different approach? IMHO, I resign myself to the fact that some people really don't care until someone they love gets murdered by a perpetrator who should have already been locked up.

FWIW, IT did not put two and two tegether and call LE with his story. LE obtained his phone number from the Bates phone and contacted him.

Police tracked down the Toronto man who went on that test drive and gave a description of the two men who came to see his truck.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/tim-bosma-case-how-did-police-zero-in-on-dellen-millard-1.3431969

 

[andreww]

Just my opinion.....but if someone was missing (ie: TB) and I had any contact with the person who was arrested for it (ie: DM) and I am completely innocent.....I would be handing over ANY and ALL evidence without making LE get a warrant (ie: my phone - even if I felt the info on it was irrelevant) on the off chance something may help LE locate the missing person. Any other actions IMO are entirely suspicious and show a lack of human compassion.

Someone said that LW2 "promised" not to delete anything while they got a warrant....that made me laugh. "I promise not to delete anything"......ummm....ok then....no problem.....seriously?

Unfortunately there are a lot of people out there that feel their own needs surpass the needs of anybody else. There are even more people out there doing shady stuff and they simply do not want to talk to LE. Put it this way, lets say you buy weed every week and you use your phone to do it. Maybe you occasionally sell a little to friends. Knock knock, its LE. They want your phone because your buddy may have killed someone. How easily do you hand it over?