Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #7

[andreww]

I get the feeling that DM is the kind of guy who would not be grossed out by blood getting all over the truck. He would just have MS clean it up for him and never give it another thought.

He's also a guy that was smart enough to use a burner phone. Blowing a guy's head off in a truck you intend on driving for the next 5 years doesn't make any sense.

 

[andreww]

Why would you bring an illegally obtained gun to buy a car unless you're planning to steal it? Correct me if I am wrong, I've never bought a car, but this does not seem like common practice. Why would you visit someone's house at night with your illegally obtained gun and then take them on a ride with you. Maybe, you're hoping that they live alone because then if you kill them there are no witnesses. However, if they do not live alone then you're plan is faulty because the people in the home can possibly identify you after. Thus, screwing up your plan. However, let's say you're determined to stick to your original plan to steal a truck and kill the person so there is no witness to your crime. You do this, but you're rattled because you know that there were people who saw you. Thus, you begin your clean-up right away and it is quite sloppy. The next day you see the man you killed has been reported missing and the lady you saw the night before is describing a tattoo that you have. You are officially "hot". You go about your business because you don't want to act suspiciously and attract attention. However, unless you involve more people you have absolutely no chance of cleaning everything up and acting normal at the same time. Maybe, you realize that you do not know as much about stripping down trucks as you think you did. So, you call your girlfriend and your partner-in-crime calls his and you explain the situation and for whatever reason they decide to help you. You give someone the gun, if you sell it you're making a profit and if you get away that's icing on the cake. You give your girlfriend the video because she has more time than you to deal with it. You have less time than you thought and the police catch you and now you are actually screwed. You text your girlfriend to make your friend to not testify because you no longer can.

I think if we try to think about this senseless crime logically, their actions make more sense.

Also, cheating isn't particularly relevant in terms of character assessment unless someone murders their partner.

I'm not denying he went to steal the truck. He almost certainly did. The thing that most people are unwilling to accept is that guns a more often used for their threat value than they are as an actual weapon. Maybe the gun was loaded just as a last resort in case things went south? Maybe there never was a plan to kill anybody? Millard and Smich had no problem letting Bosma's wife and neighbour see them, so what was the need to kill Tim? There are already two eyewitness' to a truck theft. Why on earth would you turn it in to a murder?

 

[Prairie_dawg]

We have been through the theory before that the shots fired in the truck were an accident...the consensus is and theory of the crown is that it does not matter. While we are all free to have opinions, for trial it does not matter. The fact a gun was brought on a test drive and truck theft occurred with the gun present, points to forcible confinement and thus first degree murder. I am totally on board with the first degree murder charges for both accused. JMO


ETA: Heck I too have speculated on the accident theory as it seems all too ludicrous to foul the object of theft with evidence and turn a rather minor crime into a very very major one. That does not matter, the first degree fits this crime.

 

[andreww]

We have been through the theory before that the shots fired in the truck were an accident...the consensus is and theory of the crown is that it does not matter. While we are all free to have opinions, for trial it does not matter. The fact a gun was brought on a test drive and truck theft occurred with the gun present, points to forcible confinement and thus first degree murder. I am totally on board with the first degree murder charges for both accused. JMO


ETA: Heck I too have speculated on the accident theory as it seems all too ludicrous to foul the object of theft with evidence and turn a rather minor crime into a very very major one. That does not matter, the first degree fits this crime.

Let me ask you, what evidence is there that Smich knew that there was a gun brought? What evidence is there that Smich knew a theft was planned? You could say that the fact his phone was turned off proves it, but it was late in the day and he could say his battery simply died.

 

[Orderly]

I'm not denying he went to steal the truck. He almost certainly did. The thing that most people are unwilling to accept is that guns a more often used for their threat value than they are as an actual weapon. Maybe the gun was loaded just as a last resort in case things went south? Maybe there never was a plan to kill anybody? Millard and Smich had no problem letting Bosma's wife and neighbour see them, so what was the need to kill Tim? There are already two eyewitness' to a truck theft. Why on earth would you turn it in to a murder?

Okay, let us flush this out. He threatens TB with a gun and tells him to get out of the car, why doesn't TB get out? If someone's threatening you with the gun, you do whatever they tell you to do, especially since there's two of them and one of you. They did not need to kill him, they could have just let him go. Since, he was shot inside the car he was more likely than not to not have been given that option. The only plausible conclusion is that they planned on killing him.

 

[musicaljoke]

He's also a guy that was smart enough to use a burner phone. Blowing a guy's head off in a truck you intend on driving for the next 5 years doesn't make any sense.

I believe it made perfect sense to the two villains. They simply drove away with the murder scene, then burned and power washed all the evidence until TB was gone, gone, gone. And it is supported by the evidence of their actions preceding and followed the shooting.

I simply can't see an accident scenerio ... a story of the sort in which the loaded gun just happened to go off while DM was reaching into his purse for a cheque. I don't sense that either defense team is suggesting that the shooting was accidental. If they did intend to use this defense, then I expect DM and MS would have to testify and agree to tell such a story. This sudden change in their defense strategy would seem like grasping at straws, so I can't imagine that their story would be believed.

 

[Orderly]

Unless he's planning on using the defence of duress it doesn't matter if he knew or did not know whether there was a gun involved. He could have gone to the police after the robbery, I mean he didn't have a car or anything but he had a phone. If he felt threatened he could have done this when he went home. He didn't look like he was being threatened in the video with the incinerator on it. He also tried to sell the gun. Then, he told his girlfriend not to tell the police anything. I mean, counting all that he was a willing participant in my eyes.

 

[Prairie_dawg]

Let me ask you, what evidence is there that Smich knew that there was a gun brought? What evidence is there that Smich knew a theft was planned? You could say that the fact his phone was turned off proves it, but it was late in the day and he could say his battery simply died.

I agree with you to date the evidence directly related to MS is lacking but not non-existent . He did however take part in the overall crime I see no doubt here. For all we know DM threatened him too with the gun. We have not heard the defense arguments yet. There are tons of speculation that can be done until that time. What we do know is he never went to police, he was taken BY police some time later. I am sure in the weeks to come we hear a lot more about MS's involvement. JMO

Hypothetical situation....think bank robbery where a murder occurs, almost always even the getaway driver will be charged with the first if a murder during the commission of the offense. However you will see the getaway driver is often the person that pleads out to lesser charges for 'ratting' on the main accused. We have not seen anything like that in this case. The criminal code supports this, even a person who was involved in planning will get the charge. The trial then dictates what sticks and to who. MOO

I for one look forward to hearing the remainder of the evidence and see which way this all goes.

 

[Inspector_North]

Would you shoot someone in your brand new truck? Seriously, every single piece of forensic evidence is now forever held in that truck. Why not walk him in to the woods and shoot him? Doesn't make sense at all.

<modsnip>
As for the cheating thing, you've got it wrong, nobody cares.

IMO, shooting in the truck was not planned, but the murder was.

 

[brightii]

I personally don't think the verdicts need a motive spelled out to be justly delivered.

I'd like to figure out the why and how of the crime, but it is not necessary IMO to know why or specifically how in order to determine the guilt of either accused. The why and how it all happened may never, IMO, be truthfully answered.

If TB's murder was the result of an impulsive act in the circumstance - or - a boldly premeditated plan, I dare say that no matter what explanation offered by either accused (if either testified) would satisfy me or answer all my questions, and certainly no explanation I can think of could justify TB's murder.

The only thing I can imagine is that IF either accused testified and the testimony had a ring of truth to it, and it was given with an expression of genuine remorse for the victim, TB and his family, it may help one or the other out in the sentencing phase of the trial.

To date, based on the evidence, I think both DM and MS will likely be convicted. I'm putting my faith in the Crown that more evidence to come soon will make clear MS's involvement in the crime and the cover up of it, because there is so far some reasonable doubt in my mind about MS. I do really wonder though if it will matter in the end which one actually shot TB? I trust the jury will base their judgment on the totality of ALL the evidence.

All MOO.

 

[deugirtni]

He's also a guy that was smart enough to use a burner phone. Blowing a guy's head off in a truck you intend on driving for the next 5 years doesn't make any sense.

Maybe I misunderstand everything but I wasn't getting the impression that the truck was a picture of a bloodbath. They had removed the carpet and seats, which seemed to likely have the large mess. They wiped down some areas, thinking it wasn't going to be there any more just because it wasn't visible to their eyes. I got the impression there was a bit of spatter here and a little bit of blood there, and maybe some reddish little areas on the dash. All of that stuff in the truck bed lit up when luminol was sprayed on it, and on the side of the truck, but it wasn't actually visible to the eye, because it had been 'cleaned'. I am not sure, but I believe that is why the blood was not mentioned by AJ, nor SS, nor SH. The cracked and broken front passenger window was apparently in the down position, so perhaps it was not noticed at all. I could envision DM being content driving around that vehicle for a few years once he installed new carpet and seats, no problem. moo

 

[deugirtni]

I wonder if........ DM supposedly found his father, "dead of a sudden bleed in his brain"... I'm not sure how much blood would have been present in that case, but I wonder if he thought that any bullet to a man's skull would result in little blood? Is it possible that he had figured there would only be a minor cleanup?

Just thinking on this quote below.. how it is more lies and denial. Whether he did or didn't kill his father, it was falsely portrayed by him as being something different than it was.

&#8220;People asked me how he died,&#8221; Millard says. &#8220;I&#8217;d say he died of a sudden bleed in his brain, which is what the coroner told me.&#8221;

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...didnt_kill_tim_bosma_exclusive_interview.html

 

[ABro]

Would you shoot someone in your brand new truck? Seriously, every single piece of forensic evidence is now forever held in that truck.

I don't think you know what forensic evidence means if you think it was all in the truck. There's also the DNA on the incinerator, not to mention the human remains. The gloves in DM's pocket. All the various video recordings. TB's keys in DM's Yukon. The photos of the truck at the hangar and I'm just getting started.

Why not walk him in to the woods and shoot him? Doesn't make sense at all.

And when the body is found you've got a bullet match. And while you're walking all that way into the woods where there's no risk of anyone finding you, Mr. Dog Walker's having a good look at the car/truck in his Dad's field and taking down the licence plate. He's sick of the garbage dumpers.

As for the cheating thing, you've got it wrong, nobody cares.

Personally, I don't care about the cheating but I'm aware that there are lots of people who aren't like me and care very much about cheating, and one or two of them are likely to be on the jury.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Basically a car jacking. Google it.

I did Google "carjacking ontario killed" so see how many like cases there were where and Ontario person is carjacked and killed and I came up with nothing. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

 

[SnooperDuper]

The blood stains in the carpet, visor, roof liner can never be removed or cleaned. NEVER!

You don't have to clean a field. So long as nobody sees you it is virtually impossible to pinpoint where it happened. Then you throw him in the back of the truck.

Listen I need to introduce you to this great product called Mean Green cleaner/degreaser which is incredibly useful to get rid of bloodstains. It turns them from red to green to yellow to nothing before your eyes. You don't need to wash an item, you can surface treat it (as when I found dried blood on my couch).

http://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/mean-green-degreaser-cleaner-32-oz/6000116249610

 

[SnooperDuper]

I'm not denying he went to steal the truck. He almost certainly did. The thing that most people are unwilling to accept is that guns a more often used for their threat value than they are as an actual weapon. Maybe the gun was loaded just as a last resort in case things went south? Maybe there never was a plan to kill anybody? Millard and Smich had no problem letting Bosma's wife and neighbour see them, so what was the need to kill Tim? There are already two eyewitness' to a truck theft. Why on earth would you turn it in to a murder?

If TB was intimidated by two men with a gun, there's your forcible confinement.

If someone waved a loaded cocked gun at TB with wanton disregard for his safety, it went off accidentally, and the shooter did nothing to seek medical help for TB, that's murder.

Put them together and that's first-degree murder.

Add in all the evidence of premeditation and it's definitely first-degree murder.

I don't think a claim of an "accident" will help either DM or MS.

 

[andreww]

I don't think you know what forensic evidence means if you think it was all in the truck. There's also the DNA on the incinerator, not to mention the human remains. The gloves in DM's pocket. All the various video recordings. TB's keys in DM's Yukon. The photos of the truck at the hangar and I'm just getting started.



And when the body is found you've got a bullet match. And while you're walking all that way into the woods where there's no risk of anyone finding you, Mr. Dog Walker's having a good look at the car/truck in his Dad's field and taking down the licence plate. He's sick of the garbage dumpers.



Personally, I don't care about the cheating but I'm aware that there are lots of people who aren't like me and care very much about cheating, and one or two of them are likely to be on the jury.

I don't think you know what forensic evidence means if you think it was all in the truck. There's also the DNA on the incinerator, not to mention the human remains. The gloves in DM's pocket. All the various video recordings. TB's keys in DM's Yukon. The photos of the truck at the hangar and I'm just getting started.

I think I do. And I know that the amount of blood found in that truck was a pain in the a$$ for them. Again why would you shoot him in the truck? So you'd have to cut out the carpet and burn the seats? Not sure what the rest of the stuff yo are mentioning has to do with anything? We all know they stole the truck, of course they'd have the key. The whole point is if the objective was the truck, why destroy the interior? Points to an unplanned killing IMO. Not to say that they weren't planning to kill him anyway, just that the evidence points to something unplanned.

And when the body is found you've got a bullet match. And while you're walking all that way into the woods where there's no risk of anyone finding you, Mr. Dog Walker's having a good look at the car/truck in his Dad's field and taking down the licence plate. He's sick of the garbage dumpers.

I never said leave him in the woods. Plan would be the same, in the back of the truck and in the incinerator. And guess what, there would have been no shell casing found, not link to the gun on the net, and no COD.

Personally, I don't care about the cheating but I'm aware that there are lots of people who aren't like me and care very much about cheating, and one or two of them are likely to be on the jury.

If anybody is going to be swayed one way or the other by the fact that an unmarried guy had two girlfriends, well thats a pretty sad statement isn't it?

 

[Typhoo1961]

All of that stuff in the truck bed lit up when luminol was sprayed on it

I'm sort of curious now why we never saw the inside of the truck after being sprayed with luminol. I wonder what that would have looked like.

 

[ABro]

I did Google "carjacking ontario killed" so see how many like cases there were where and Ontario person is carjacked and killed and I came up with nothing. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

Now try carjacking and incineration.

 

[andreww]

I did Google "carjacking ontario killed" so see how many like cases there were where and Ontario person is carjacked and killed and I came up with nothing. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

Did I say in Ontario?

In the US about 27 homicides by strangers each year involved automobile theft," but not all of these were carjackings.

According to the NCVS, from 1992 and 1996, about 49,000 completed or attempted nonfatal carjackings took place each year in the United States

Further evidence that people don't generally kill for a vehicle.