Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #7

[SnooperDuper]

I don't think you know what forensic evidence means if you think it was all in the truck. There's also the DNA on the incinerator, not to mention the human remains. The gloves in DM's pocket. All the various video recordings. TB's keys in DM's Yukon. The photos of the truck at the hangar and I'm just getting started.

I think I do. And I know that the amount of blood found in that truck was a pain in the a$$ for them. Again why would you shoot him in the truck? So you'd have to cut out the carpet and burn the seats? Not sure what the rest of the stuff yo are mentioning has to do with anything? We all know they stole the truck, of course they'd have the key. The whole point is if the objective was the truck, why destroy the interior? Points to an unplanned killing IMO. Not to say that they weren't planning to kill him anyway, just that the evidence points to something unplanned.

You mean all the other evidence except that was found in the truck is meaningless in this trial? Or just meaningless when you try to support in your theory?

And when the body is found you've got a bullet match. And while you're walking all that way into the woods where there's no risk of anyone finding you, Mr. Dog Walker's having a good look at the car/truck in his Dad's field and taking down the licence plate. He's sick of the garbage dumpers.

I never said leave him in the woods. Plan would be the same, in the back of the truck and in the incinerator. And guess what, there would have been no shell casing found, not link to the gun on the net, and no COD.

Plan: that's premeditation.

If anybody is going to be swayed one way or the other by the fact that an unmarried guy had two girlfriends, well thats a pretty sad statement isn't it?

I think it speaks to DM's character, that he's less than honest and not forthright with everyone.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Did I say in Ontario?



Further evidence that people don't generally kill for a vehicle.

No, you cannot "prove" anything with statistics.

This case is in Ontario, where gun access is much more restricted than in the US, too. I am not sure what the US news has to do with Canada. It is an entirely different country, after all.

 

[andreww]

I get it. You people have already made your decisions. They are guilty, lets stop the trial and throw away the keys. But I'm sorry, I for one don't think a great case has been made against MS. Can you positively even put him at the scene? There are lots of questions as well. Was Millard really that broke that he couldn't buy the truck? Why didn't Millard turn his phone off? They are sitting there together and only one of them turns their phone off? Why kill Tim? They already had two eyewitnesses! If they had just booted him out of the truck there is a huge chance LE wouldn't have put in enough resources to solve this crime. Certainly the Igor/tattoo/Millard connection would never have been made because it wouldn't have gotten any media or public attention. Plenty of stuff doesn't add up here so lets at least listen to the defence presentations before we fry anybody.

 

[andreww]

No, you cannot "prove" anything with statistics.

This case is in Ontario, where gun access is much more restricted than in the US, too. I am not sure what the US news has to do with Canada. It is an entirely different country, after all.

Agreed, but Millard and Smich obviously had a gun. Don't think that things are night and day once you cross that border because guns have permeated the border and the gangs and crimes have as well.

 

[SnooperDuper]

I get it. You people have already made your decisions. They are guilty, lets stop the trial and throw away the keys. But I'm sorry, I for one don't think a great case has been made against MS. Can you positively even put him at the scene? There are lots of questions as well. Was Millard really that broke that he couldn't buy the truck? Why didn't Millard turn his phone off? They are sitting there together and only one of them turns their phone off? Why kill Tim? They already had two eyewitnesses! If they had just booted him out of the truck there is a huge chance LE wouldn't have put in enough resources to solve this crime. Certainly the Igor/tattoo/Millard connection would never have been made because it wouldn't have gotten any media or public attention. Plenty of stuff doesn't add up here so lets at least listen to the defence presentations before we fry anybody.

Part of what you are asking is, "why didn't DM and MS commit the perfect crime?"

I guess because nobody's perfect, and we're all only human, though it might be hard to see DM and MS that way (human, I mean).

Sure they made mistakes - but that isn't proof that they didn't do this, or didn't intend to do this.

I don't think DM was broke, by a long shot: he's worth more than $12M. However he was definitely having cashflow problems, meaning the money wasn't there when he wanted it and he had to work damn hard to access it.

MS can be put at the scene in the video evidence that showed him at the hangar while TB was being incinerated.

 

[redwing7225]

I get it. You people have already made your decisions. They are guilty, lets stop the trial and throw away the keys. But I'm sorry, I for one don't think a great case has been made against MS. Can you positively even put him at the scene? There are lots of questions as well. Was Millard really that broke that he couldn't buy the truck? Why didn't Millard turn his phone off? They are sitting there together and only one of them turns their phone off? Why kill Tim? They already had two eyewitnesses! If they had just booted him out of the truck there is a huge chance LE wouldn't have put in enough resources to solve this crime. Certainly the Igor/tattoo/Millard connection would never have been made because it wouldn't have gotten any media or public attention. Plenty of stuff doesn't add up here so lets at least listen to the defence presentations before we fry anybody.

Personally know a lot of "wealthy" people who would rather squeeze a nickel 'til the beaver *****s...regardless if DM had $$ to buy the truck or not, it is known that a room mate will testify that the plan was to steal the truck (pls correct me if i have mis-read that). Furthermore, recall, he did tell SS that he purchased the truck in Kitchener.
My apologies, i don't know how to quote from 2 different entries, Post #457 andreww, you stated "And I know that the amount of blood found in that truck was a pain in the a$$ for them." Is this fact? Not saying i would be up for this type of challenge however, i'm quite certain, given uninterrupted 8hrs, and a mixture of chemicals/cleaning agents, the truck would be spotless.
Give someone a week or 2 and they could have an all new interior, cloth, door panels and seats.
Personally looking forward to getting back to testimony, imo, facts are being forgotten or too many "assumptions" flying around. Facts, can't argue against them.

 

[Hez]

I get it. You people have already made your decisions.They are guilty, lets stop the trial and throw away the keys. But I'm sorry, I for one don't think a great case has been made against MS. Can you positively even put him at the scene? There are lots of questions as well. Was Millard really that broke that he couldn't buy the truck? Why didn't Millard turn his phone off? They are sitting there together and only one of them turns their phone off? Why kill Tim? They already had two eyewitnesses! If they had just booted him out of the truck there is a huge chance LE wouldn't have put in enough resources to solve this crime. Certainly the Igor/tattoo/Millard connection would never have been made because it wouldn't have gotten any media or public attention. Plenty of stuff doesn't add up here so lets at least listen to the defence presentations before we fry anybody.

BUBM - Nobody here is saying that at all. :facepalm: The Crown isn't even done with their witnesses yet so you don't know with any certainty that they haven't made their case against MS. Until then, people on this board are going to discuss the evidence against the defendants that has been presented so far and express their opinions on whether that supports guilt or innocence.

 

[Inspector_North]

"Fraser said police also seized letters Millard wrote to his girlfriend from jail that asked her to persuade one of his friends to change the information given to police.
That friend, Fraser said, will testify that he heard both Millard and Smich planning to steal a truck."


SS claimed that Dellen told him he bought the truck, and we know they had an an exchange of texts about the TB family, and the truck. I believe that when AM takes the stand, we will hear more about this plan to acquire a truck that will give everyone a better insight into the character of these suspected murderers.

According to the letters to CN, DM was concerned about it. And DM seemed to be completely opposite about hiding other evidence.

 

[redwing7225]

As much as my thinking is quite black and white (grew up in a home with many debates, i learned at a young age that if you are going to argue, make sure you argue with facts). So, can someone here please enlighten me with the "shade of grey".
If all of this truck theft, killing of TB, using the Eliminator, stripping down the truck, lying to employee about the purchase of the truck, hiding the truck in mom's driveway, telling real estate lady you think you have been set up, etc...if all of this wasn't a plan and ***** just went wrong, why not go directly to LE and speak the truth from the start? Perhaps stop the madness at lying to the employee, go to LE, tell the truth, spare the family the agony of all the crap they have been through. This is the grey area I find hard to wrap my mind around...anyone care to shed light into my "mindfulness"

 

[Inspector_North]

As much as my thinking is quite black and white (grew up in a home with many debates, i learned at a young age that if you are going to argue, make sure you argue with facts). So, can someone here please enlighten me with the "shade of grey".
If all of this truck theft, killing of TB, using the Eliminator, stripping down the truck, lying to employee about the purchase of the truck, hiding the truck in mom's driveway, telling real estate lady you think you have been set up, etc...if all of this wasn't a plan and ***** just went wrong, why not go directly to LE and speak the truth from the start? Perhaps stop the madness at lying to the employee, go to LE, tell the truth, spare the family the agony of all the crap they have been through. This is the grey area I find hard to wrap my mind around...anyone care to shed light into my "mindfulness"

The problem is IMO that many think this was the plan. There was a plan, but something went wrong, and the rest is a reactionary plan with a tight timeline.

 

[redwing7225]

The problem is IMO that many think this was the plan. There was a plan, but something went wrong, and the rest is a reactionary plan with a tight timeline.

I appreciate your response, I hope you don't mind me asking, if there wasn't an "additional plan", why have an illegal loaded gun in your possession? Again, here comes my black and white thinking but DM and MS vs. TB...drive to unknown location and kick TB out of the truck to walk home.

 

[MsSherlock]

I get it. You people have already made your decisions. They are guilty, lets stop the trial and throw away the keys. But I'm sorry, I for one don't think a great case has been made against MS. Can you positively even put him at the scene? There are lots of questions as well. Was Millard really that broke that he couldn't buy the truck? Why didn't Millard turn his phone off? They are sitting there together and only one of them turns their phone off? Why kill Tim? They already had two eyewitnesses! If they had just booted him out of the truck there is a huge chance LE wouldn't have put in enough resources to solve this crime. Certainly the Igor/tattoo/Millard connection would never have been made because it wouldn't have gotten any media or public attention. Plenty of stuff doesn't add up here so lets at least listen to the defence presentations before we fry anybody.

I get it. IMO, it's human nature to always believe there has to be a reason and some logical sequence of events, but there's absolutely no way we can be prepared for psychopathic behaviour. TB, PB, RW, MR & RP. There is no reason behind any of these murders. These are people with some serious mental issues and there's no way that we could sit down and make sense of their actions. All we can ever hope for is that a psychopath never knocks at the door of someone we love. We'll go insane ourselves if we ever try to put logic to the actions of a psycho.

IMHO, DM and MS were living in their own psychopathic world- doing what they wanted to do, relishing in the excitement of all of it. They're not thinking like rational people- like "let's not get the truck bloody", IMO, they were in for the whole meal deal. The "friend dropped us off" ploy, the hide the Yukon in the bushes, the guns, the kill, the incineration, stripping down the truck and getting it painted. Look at them walking thru the hangar- like they're at camp or something.

IMO, this was a pre-planned package not a series of reactive behaviours because something didn't go right. There was always a way to deal with the truck. IMO, TB was a dead man the minute the appointment was set up. They never believed for one moment that their plan had any flaws in it that they couldn't work around because that's not how their brains work. Now they're sweating their butts off in Court, seeing the evidence pile up and waiting for the inevitable. 25 yrs with no chance of parole. MOO

 

[SnooperDuper]

As much as my thinking is quite black and white (grew up in a home with many debates, i learned at a young age that if you are going to argue, make sure you argue with facts). So, can someone here please enlighten me with the "shade of grey".
If all of this truck theft, killing of TB, using the Eliminator, stripping down the truck, lying to employee about the purchase of the truck, hiding the truck in mom's driveway, telling real estate lady you think you have been set up, etc...if all of this wasn't a plan and ***** just went wrong, why not go directly to LE and speak the truth from the start? Perhaps stop the madness at lying to the employee, go to LE, tell the truth, spare the family the agony of all the crap they have been through. This is the grey area I find hard to wrap my mind around...anyone care to shed light into my "mindfulness"

The most obvious reason that they didn't go to LE is because they would have been charged with something - likely murder. UNLESS they called for medical support for TB...but they didn't; we don't know if TB's death was instant or if it took time, but we do know MS and DM sought no help for him.

 

[JuneBug67]

I get it. You people have already made your decisions. They are guilty, lets stop the trial and throw away the keys. But I'm sorry, I for one don't think a great case has been made against MS. Can you positively even put him at the scene? There are lots of questions as well. Was Millard really that broke that he couldn't buy the truck? Why didn't Millard turn his phone off? They are sitting there together and only one of them turns their phone off? Why kill Tim? They already had two eyewitnesses! If they had just booted him out of the truck there is a huge chance LE wouldn't have put in enough resources to solve this crime. Certainly the Igor/tattoo/Millard connection would never have been made because it wouldn't have gotten any media or public attention. Plenty of stuff doesn't add up here so lets at least listen to the defence presentations before we fry anybody.

Many unknowns - you're right. A few thoughts on one turning the phone off, one not:
- as noted, Smich's phone might have just run out of battery
- possible, though less likely, that it was turned off for some reason other than the murder e.g. 'I'm in the middle of a carjacking and ____ won't stop blowing up my phone', or battery was low and wanted to preserve for later
- possible, though less likely, that DM thought he turned off his phone but didn't, or simply forgot about it in the immediate aftermath of the killing
- my personal favourite theory: the murder as it occurred was unplanned and the two of them just had reactions that are consistent with their different personalities. Smich is more furtive and cautious and his assessment/reaction was to turn off his phone. Millard is more glib and manipulative and possibly more intelligent and his assessment/reaction was to respond by not turning off his phone as that action could be (and has been) read as cognizance of guilt.

I think it's hard to predict in retrospect how a carjacking during a test drive would have been covered. That angle still makes it newsworthy and police would almost certainly feel obliged to issue a public warning because of the Kijiji/Auto Trader connection. They'd also likely have given it more attention than a straightforward property crime as the potential for violence and harm is built right into the MO.

I agree that we absolutely need to wait for the defence cases. That said, I'm going to be truly amazed and chastened if either one of them ends up looking much different than they do now. It sure looks like a straight up case of a sociopath and his callous and versatile sidekick.

 

[grillzgirl]

For anyone that doesn't see this a premeditated murder, do you have an explanation as to why he purchased an incinerator?

 

[MsSherlock]

As much as my thinking is quite black and white (grew up in a home with many debates, i learned at a young age that if you are going to argue, make sure you argue with facts). So, can someone here please enlighten me with the "shade of grey".
If all of this truck theft, killing of TB, using the Eliminator, stripping down the truck, lying to employee about the purchase of the truck, hiding the truck in mom's driveway, telling real estate lady you think you have been set up, etc...if all of this wasn't a plan and ***** just went wrong, why not go directly to LE and speak the truth from the start? Perhaps stop the madness at lying to the employee, go to LE, tell the truth, spare the family the agony of all the crap they have been through. This is the grey area I find hard to wrap my mind around...anyone care to shed light into my "mindfulness"

I find it ironic that in a court room today another wealthy young man right around the same age as DM, who after pleading guilty as charged, accepted his punishment of 10 years in jail. There was no lengthly trial blaming everyone in the world for his actions. There was no attempt at trying to get off with a lessor charge. Interesting contrast. MOO

 

[Inspector_North]

I find it ironic that in a court room today another wealthy young man right around the same age as DM, who after pleading guilty as charged, accepted his punishment of 10 years in jail. There was no lengthly trial blaming everyone in the world for his actions. There was no attempt at trying to get off with a lessor charge. Interesting contrast. MOO

He did delay his plea until after he was advised that any other plea was futile, and could possibly lead to a stiffer sentence. The evidence in the MM DUI case was much easier to prove guilt.

 

[Typhoo1961]

For anyone that doesn't see this a premeditated murder, do you have an explanation as to why he purchased an incinerator?

We all know that one. DM was planning on going into the animal cremation business with his veterinarian uncle dontcha know. :floorlaugh:

 

[redwing7225]

I find it ironic that in a court room today another wealthy young man right around the same age as DM, who after pleading guilty as charged, accepted his punishment of 10 years in jail. There was no lengthly trial blaming everyone in the world for his actions. There was no attempt at trying to get off with a lessor charge. Interesting contrast. MOO

That case is entirely different. That man took the lives of 3 innocent children and a father/husband/son.
My blood boils over this one.

 

[grillzgirl]

We all know that one. DM was planning on going into the animal cremation business with his veterinarian uncle dontcha know. :floorlaugh:

Giggle. Gosh, I forgot that!!