Burke did NOT kill JonBenet

[Slebby]

It is extremely unlikely to me that BR killed JBR.
The force necessary to hit her as hard as he did- it is so unlikely a slight boy like him had the strength to inflict such an injury.
But even if he did, by some fluke manage to hit her that hard, in the mind of a child, you don’t then concoct a big series of lies - a ransom letter, a staged SA and garrotte. A child runs to bed, leaves the critically wounded sister, and hopes it blows over by morning and not to get in trouble. Period.

Even if BR had mustered the strength to inflict the blow, any parent would call 911 and get help. There are things we now know in hindsight that, had BR caused the head injury, the parents couldn’t have known, namely that the head blow would have ultimately caused death. With what they knew if BR had struck her, they would have called 911.

The RN is so obviously written by PR - there are experts who say she did (notice JR never concedes THIS point on Netflix) and the ones who don’t only say she can’t be eliminated.
I love statistics!
What is the statistical likelihood that, of all associates of the Rs whose handwriting was tested, the ONLY one who could not be eliminated as the author of the RN was PR?
I agree with Trish on this - what is the statistical likelihood that both PR and the so-called intruder both write the letter Q in a way that looks like the number 8? I’ve literally never encountered this in my life.
So unless PR was covering for an intruder with her lengthy venture into creative writing, the killer was an R, and it is my belief it was an adult R.
Just my opinion

 

[skoogmagoo]

Interesting thread.
I don’t think BR could be responsible for a number of reasons, except if JB’s death was the result of an accidental head blow, then covered up by PR and JR (*Covered up so well, that BR may not have even been aware when he woke up that morning that his actions had caused the death. He was shielded from knowing what he had done)
I don’t consider the SA and garrotting to be evidence of an authentic SA but rather a staged SA scene. I believe the SA injuries would have been far more grievous, including bloody wounds and tears. This points to a cover up or misdirection (*in fact, the misdirection of the staged SA points to a parent precisely because they used the paintbrush, which to me indicates a horrified inability to inflict true SA injuries on one’s own child)
BR was too young and unsophisticated to concoct the misdirection.
BR was was too young and innocent to have the knowledge re SA to do the staging.
The RN was beyond the creative writing capability and experience of the world and pop culture (movie references) of a 9 year old.
IMO

The garrot was not staged. If you look at the autopsy pictures the rope is imbedded in JBR neck.

 

[Slebby]

The garrot was not staged. If you look at the autopsy pictures the rope is imbedded in JBR neck.

Pulling the rope tightly cannot be part of staging to make it look like a SA crime? Why not?

 

[Ponytale]

But even if he did, by some fluke manage to hit her that hard, in the mind of a child, you don’t then concoct a big series of lies - a ransom letter, a staged SA and garrotte. A child runs to bed, leaves the critically wounded sister, and hopes it blows over by morning and not to get in trouble. Period.

Yes, exactly! And why couldn't it have happened? He did not have to participate in the staging or not even know anything about it. He hit her, not causing to kill her. Was shocked and panicking about it cause JB fell down and was unconscious. Cried and was afraid of what would his parents say when they showed up. Was trying to wake her up to make it all go away and called for Patsy and John because he couldn't and panic got over him. John and Patsy sent him away to bed cause he was shocked and they did not have the time to deal with Burke at the scene. He spent the night in his room sleeping and in the morning was told that JB woke up a little later, all was okay with her and they all went to bed soon after. That could have been all that he knew. All they had to tell Burke was that he must never tell anyone that he hit her on the head. He could have just believed his parents that a stranger came to their house in the middle of the night and kidnapped his sister.

Even if BR had mustered the strength to inflict the blow, any parent would call 911 and get help.

In that case any parent would also call 911 and get help if an accident was caused by a parent. How could there be difference in action whether it was a child or a parent?
I don't think that all parents would do so. I have written on other possibilities too what might have gone through their heads that night. There are other possibilities to consider. Something must have stopped them from calling 911.

There are things we now know in hindsight that, had BR caused the head injury, the parents couldn’t have known, namely that the head blow would have ultimately caused death. With what they knew if BR had struck her, they would have called 911.

IMO, if they felt the fracture and a dislocated part of scull on her head, they could have thought about having to forever raise a child with a severe brain damage or in a vegetative state. I do not see them wanting to do that. Or if they also did not feel her breathing or pulse in their panic for a period of time, they could also have assumed that she was already dead. There are many possibilities.

I think that the possibility of them calling the 911 is only one option in many. I do respect your opinion, but we should stay open minded that they could have thought differently.

 

[Slebby]

Yes, exactly! And why couldn't it have happened? He did not have to participate in the staging or not even know anything about it. He hit her, not causing to kill her. Was shocked and panicking about it cause JB fell down and was unconscious. Cried and was afraid of what would his parents say when they showed up. Was trying to wake her up to make it all go away and called for Patsy and John because he couldn't and panic got over him. John and Patsy sent him away to bed cause he was shocked and they did not have the time to deal with Burke at the scene. He spent the night in his room sleeping and in the morning was told that JB woke up a little later, all was okay with her and they all went to bed soon after. That could have been all that he knew. All they had to tell Burke was that he must never tell anyone that he hit her on the head. He could have just believed his parents that a stranger came to their house in the middle of the night and kidnapped his sister.

In that case any parent would also call 911 and get help if an accident was caused by a parent. How could there be difference in action whether it was a child or a parent?
I don't think that all parents would do so. I have written on other possibilities too what might have gone through their heads that night. There are other possibilities to consider. Something must have stopped them from calling 911.

IMO, if they felt the fracture and a dislocated part of scull on her head, they could have thought about having to forever raise a child with a severe brain damage or in a vegetative state. I do not see them wanting to do that. Or if they also did not feel her breathing or pulse in their panic for a period of time, they could also have assumed that she was already dead. There are many possibilities.

I think that the possibility of them calling the 911 is only one option in many. I do respect your opinion, but we should stay open minded that they could have thought differently.

Ponytale, I appreciate your reply. I am somewhat open to the BDI theory. However, coverup, staged SA and RN is too far to go to protect either the reputation or feelings of BR, imo.
But to do all that to divert attention from a parent is a whole different thing, if the head bash wasn’t an accident, took place while issuing corporal punishment or SA, for example, calling 911 is fraught with peril.
I believe PR would protect BR, which is why I was able to entertain a BDI scenario. However, I believe she would have been more inclined to protect JR, for lots of reasons, not limited to him being a powerful alpha male, the authority in their home, and likely the only remaining parent BR would have when cancer finally took her life. I could see her go along for that reason, even as some contempt for JR leaked out in the RN.
Just my opinion

 

[Swirlz]

Just reminding people who seem to need to believe the theory that Burke delivered the head blow and that the parents did the rest; JBR died of strangulation. A cord was wrapped around her neck, causing her to die of asphyxiation. She was also a victim of sexual assault. Blood was present in her underpants. The FBI believed the SA took place after the head blow and as part of staging. Only one member of law enforcement believed Burke to have been involved in any part of the series of attacks on JBR, an investigator named Kolar. Kolar worked briefly for the Boulder DA in 2005 and went on to self-publish a book blaming Burke. Kolar's theory was that Burke is responsible for each element of the attack; head-blow/SA/strangulation.

 

[fridaybaker]

Sorry for jumping in here when I seem to be a little behind, but I just read that both PR and JR denied that he ever helped JBR with toileting and dressing.
Huh? One of the most noticeable facets of this case is that it’s been said that JBR would ask grown men to wipe her, and that they would do it. But not her father? Methinks I have caught the Ramseys in a blatant lie. MOO.

 

[Slebby]

Just reminding people who seem to need to believe the theory that Burke delivered the head blow and that the parents did the rest; JBR died of strangulation. A cord was wrapped around her neck, causing her to die of asphyxiation. She was also a victim of sexual assault. Blood was present in her underpants. The FBI believed the SA took place after the head blow and as part of staging. Only one member of law enforcement believed Burke to have been involved in any part of the series of attacks on JBR, an investigator named Kolar. Kolar worked briefly for the Boulder DA in 2005 and went on to self-publish a book blaming Burke. Kolar's theory was that Burke is responsible for each element of the attack; head-blow/SA/strangulation.

Yes, I agree, death was by strangulation (thought the head wound would have ultimately been fatal, iirc)
My opinion of the SA is that it was staged, as I would expect a lot more grievous injuries from a true SA.
I would like to know more about the evidence of chronic SA, as this would seal my belief that JR was responsible for it, and the one in most need of coverup and staging.
I need to reread part of Kolar’s book. My memory was that he touched on the possibility of BR being responsible but I didn’t see that as a firm conclusion he’d made. Will revisit that part of the book for sure. Otherwise, I appreciated a lot of the factual information he covered.
IMHO

 

[CloudedTruth]

Yes, I agree, death was by strangulation (thought the head wound would have ultimately been fatal, iirc)
My opinion of the SA is that it was staged, as I would expect a lot more grievous injuries from a true SA.
I would like to know more about the evidence of chronic SA, as this would seal my belief that JR was responsible for it, and the one in most need of coverup and staging.
I need to reread part of Kolar’s book. My memory was that he touched on the possibility of BR being responsible but I didn’t see that as a firm conclusion he’d made. Will revisit that part of the book for sure. Otherwise, I appreciated a lot of the factual information he covered.
IMHO

I think Kolar chose his words very carefully. Intentionally a little vague with certain things, but still offering facts pointing to BR. He was most likely concerned by the infamously litigiousness of John Ramsey.

 

[Ponytale]

Just reminding people who seem to need to believe the theory that Burke delivered the head blow and that the parents did the rest; JBR died of strangulation. A cord was wrapped around her neck, causing her to die of asphyxiation. She was also a victim of sexual assault. Blood was present in her underpants. The FBI believed the SA took place after the head blow and as part of staging. Only one member of law enforcement believed Burke to have been involved in any part of the series of attacks on JBR, an investigator named Kolar. Kolar worked briefly for the Boulder DA in 2005 and went on to self-publish a book blaming Burke. Kolar's theory was that Burke is responsible for each element of the attack; head-blow/SA/strangulation.

I have seen all those remarks considered in the theories involving Burke too.

 

[skoogmagoo]

Pulling the rope tightly cannot be part of staging to make it look like a SA crime? Why

Pulling the rope tightly cannot be part of staging to make it look like a SA crime? Why not?

According to the autopsy report the rope left a deep furrow all the way around her neck. Also, the petechial hemorrhaging around the eyes and in places along the deep furrow suggests in my opinion a sustained strangulation. It seems to go far beyond a rope pulled tightly as part of " staging".

 

[Slebby]

According to the autopsy report the rope left a deep furrow all the way around her neck. Also, the petechial hemorrhaging around the eyes and in places along the deep furrow suggests in my opinion a sustained strangulation. It seems to go far beyond a rope pulled tightly as part of " staging".

The strangulation finished her off ahead of her dying from the head wound, but strangling is not, imo, SA. IMO the SA was staged because there was very little in the way of wounds. An actual SA would yield more extreme genital damage. I believe there was some panicked attempts at misdirection, including a RN pointing away from Rs to a kidnapper, and a staged SA pointing away from Rs to a sexual deviant.
It is my belief that there was a minimal use of the broken paintbrush to make it look like SA, by someone who couldn’t bring themselves to use their own hands to commit the abhorrent and grievous injuries one would expect in a true SA. The same someone who gently wrapped JBR in her favorite blanket like a papoose.
imho

 

[Chypre]

I watched The Case of JonBenet the other night. I noticed the team of experts said she was killed by the impact on her head. I think it was Dr. Lee that said she was killed then and brain dead. He said (my interpretation), people make a mistake not knowing that the heart organ can contract on it's own. But he did not mention any of her signs of struggling I thought were there.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

According to the autopsy report the rope left a deep furrow all the way around her neck. Also, the petechial hemorrhaging around the eyes and in places along the deep furrow suggests in my opinion a sustained strangulation. It seems to go far beyond a rope pulled tightly as part of " staging".

It was mentioned to me that there would have been pist mortem swelling so perhaps not as tight as what we see in autopsy photos.
I am of the theory strangulation came first. I think that makes the most sense with the lack of blood un the skull cavity. Steve Thomas said at autopsy the hemorrhage was massive. Cyril Wecht said about 7 tablespoons of blood. Looking at how vascular the brain is and the area of impact I would think there would be more.
Any pathologists that can speak to this?

 

[Chypre]

IMO, Burke's guilt or innocence largely depends on the interpretation of the 911 recording.

I've been reading and posting on JonBenet threads for a month now. I was firmly DNA IDI, now still trying to give IDI as some reasonable dobt. I think reasonable doubt on is what the case has not moved forward, more so than the grand jury shadiness.

My background is in psychology, therapy, and education. I only have a vague time period of somewhere in the 2000s there was a sweeping change of new programs and protocols for working with sexual offenders. There were regional trainings on stats, assessments, polygraph, etc and Jim Clemente was one of the trainers. I watched The Case of JonBenet knowing he looked familiar but not putting it together in my brain. In my brain, he was filed under helpful things for adoption because of what I had a project on.

Anyhow, after all official stuff was complete, later there was social time. I remember him saying the brother did it because he was awake . I remember asking how did they know from that, and he said what are the chances . . . only time this ever happened. But just like here I focus on doubt so I asked if just by being awake can that be convictable, and he replied they have him recorded that he was awake, and what are the chances . . .

Edit to add: As far as the 911 call, I think the sentences can be interpreted in more than way.

So, that's my little nugget.

 

[Swirlz]

It seems to have been scrubbed from YouTube and the last time I searched for it, I couldn't find it but some period of time before the CBS series aired, Clemente gave an interview where he strongly implied he thought John was guilty. Either way, Clemente didn't work the case. The lead investigator was Steve Thomas. Thomas believed he could hear Burke's voice at the end of the 911 call but didn't believe Burke had anything at all to do with the series of events leading to JBR's murder.

 

[Charlot123]

I see no reason for the parents to kill JBR. Patsy (reportedly) had mood swings yet no history of violence at all.

If JR, then, why? He lost everything as the result - a company, an excellent job. Money. Societal standing. Why? To molest, as some say? Well...then we first have to assume that he is a pedophile. I don't see any known history of it, but I specifically Googled where pedophiles would go for sex tourism in the 90es. Three countries were on top. Not in own house and then kill a child. Not people with "reputation." To some islands, yes.

Even if we assume that JR was desperately in love with the daughter, the least reasonable thing would be to kill her. He is ambitioys and practical enough to cover up an accident or what he suspected could be someone's murder, but his own reason for killing a child makes no sense to me.

A brother who was very immature for his age? Some impulsive, hyperactive, stupid behavior? With two soporific parents in the house? Possible.

But the parents don't fit the criteria for murderers. And then someone, somewhere mentioned "satanic rituals." Do people really believe it?

 

[Swirlz]

A child abuse expert named John McCann who examined the autopsy slides believed ongoing prior abuse.

The only member of law enforcement present at the time the body was recovered from the basement just so happened to be an experienced sex crimes investigator. She stated her belief in a 2000 depo that the perpetrator of "incest" was John Ramsey. She implied the Department of Social Services agreed with her.

John Ramsey's fibers link him directly to SA.

JBR's bedroom is situated a floor below the parents bedroom in an odd and isolated location, clear across the other side of the hall from Burke. The staircase leading up to the master bedroom bathroom happens to be right outside JBR's bedroom door.

Child abuse investigator Holly Smith, in an interview with the Denver Post made a point of saying a child's bedroom is an important part of any child abuse investigation. Holly Smith was a member of Boulder Social Services.

Susanne Bernhard assessed Burke Ramsey as being a child who'd been conditioned to keep secrets. She recommended a follow up for Burke in specifically the area of "uncomfortable touching". Susanne Bernhard is part of Boulder Social Services.

But it doesn't matter how many times I post this info. I get it. People want VERY badly to believe John is innocent and that Burke is the perpetrator. There is no evidence of this little boy's involvement but people say it doesn't matter and shouldn't, BDI is simply their theory. I don't really understand it but I know it'll continue.

 

[Chypre]

It seems to have been scrubbed from YouTube and the last time I searched for it, I couldn't find it but some period of time before the CBS series aired, Clemente gave an interview where he strongly implied he thought John was guilty. Either way, Clemente didn't work the case. The lead investigator was Steve Thomas. Thomas believed he could hear Burke's voice at the end of the 911 call but didn't believe Burke had anything at all to do with the series of events leading to JBR's murder.

Thanks! So at some point he said JR was responsible, so I'm guessing he meant the blow to the head on the one you saw.

 

[Swirlz]

I don't know if we're allowed to post links here but it was an interview with Allison Hope Weiner and the show was about sexual predators and at the end he talked about the JBR case but that part has since been edited out. He didn't come right out and say he thought it was John but a pic of John flashed across a screen and as best I can remember, Clemente kind of nodded his head in the affirmative.