Burke did NOT kill JonBenet

[AddieBoo]

The police didn't pursuit with the DNA because they were initially blocked by the Ramsey lawyers from testing the evidence, and later the found sample itself turned out to be so minuscule and partial, that the police probably knew from the start that it will never lead nowhere and most likely does not come from an intruder. IMO desperation by John Ramsey. He has set the legacy for his children and grandchildren. He has been shouting DNA for years, biased interviews, outrageous claims, all the conventions, tabloid interviews etc etc. And now… a new book due to be published with claims made by “experts” who have been rebuked and called out even before the book hits the shelf….

This very topic has been widely discussed here recently. The vast majority of the medical experts agree…..head blow came first. Both Mark Beckner and Mitch Morrissey are stating what the experts concluded.

Does that imply that nothing happened to JB for that assumed time till death by strangulation? ie skull fracture….45 minutes to 2 hours… strangulation?
The ligature could have been constructed on JB, the tightening begun, interruption (blow to the head-either standing or sitting), and due to that, panic ensued. The ligature meant to be loosened is left in place despite efforts to remove it - after trying to revive JB from unconsciousness. The cord caused swelling, but did not break any bones. Could a ligature, taut but not completely cause strangulation over time? Would the swelling add to the ultimate decrease in oxygen that ended her life?
It’s hard for me to wrap my head around the strangulation of an unconscious child….
MOO

 

[Chypre]

Does that imply that nothing happened to JB for that assumed time till death by strangulation? ie skull fracture….45 minutes to 2 hours… strangulation?
The ligature could have been constructed on JB, the tightening begun, interruption (blow to the head-either standing or sitting), and due to that, panic ensued. The ligature meant to be loosened is left in place despite efforts to remove it - after trying to revive JB from unconsciousness. The cord caused swelling, but did not break any bones. Could a ligature, taut but not completely cause strangulation over time? Would the swelling add to the ultimate decrease in oxygen that ended her life?
It’s hard for me to wrap my head around the strangulation of an unconscious child….
MOO

Just my opinion, if it was a sexual crime, or staged to be I think perps typically strangle, let the victim gain consciousness and repeat because thy want their victim to be at a certain level of consciousness. So the garrote would have been repeatedly tighted and loosened.

 

[AddieBoo]

Just my opinion, if it was a sexual crime, or staged to be I think perps typically strangle, let the victim gain consciousness and repeat because thy want their victim to be at a certain level of consciousness. So the garrote would have been repeatedly tighted and loosened.

That is Wecht’s theory. But I’m not sure that ligature was one that could be tightened then loosened?
Wecht was included among all the other forensic’s - whose opinion was sought-having all the forensic reports, slides and photos from Meyers office - but came to a different conclusion.
There have been other notable doctors with the best of credentials that have weighed in, who also believe the skull fracture was first etc. But it’s a real challenge to fit the crime to that consensus - probably due to my level of knowledge et all.
Still… the strangulation of an unconscious six year old….no words…

 

[AddieBoo]

That is Wecht’s theory. But I’m not sure that ligature was one that could be tightened then loosened?
Wecht was included among all the other forensic’s - whose opinion was sought-having all the forensic reports, slides and photos from Meyers office - but came to a different conclusion.
There have been other notable doctors with the best of credentials that have weighed in, who also believe the skull fracture was first etc. But it’s a real challenge to fit the crime to that consensus - probably due to my level of knowledge et all.
Still… the strangulation of an unconscious six year old….no words…

Wecht also disagreed with the paintbrush theory that explained the Bifringent material identified internally, The microscopic material, he said, was from talc.
He did not elaborate on that… but further reading on my part found that talc forensically is often associated with gloves…
Gloves used at that crime scene would not be difficult to believe…
Regarding the use of gloves to assault JB? One could speculate why. Or even the use of baby powder (talc)….

 

[CloudedTruth]

Does that imply that nothing happened to JB for that assumed time till death by strangulation? ie skull fracture….45 minutes to 2 hours… strangulation?
The ligature could have been constructed on JB, the tightening begun, interruption (blow to the head-either standing or sitting), and due to that, panic ensued. The ligature meant to be loosened is left in place despite efforts to remove it - after trying to revive JB from unconsciousness. The cord caused swelling, but did not break any bones. Could a ligature, taut but not completely cause strangulation over time? Would the swelling add to the ultimate decrease in oxygen that ended her life?
It’s hard for me to wrap my head around the strangulation of an unconscious child….
MOO

I think what happened in between was the staging. The ligature may have been the final piece of the staging…..with the realization that she was still alive, but also part of the staging to make it look like a sex crime (garroting). In her already very deteriorating state of health, already near death it would not have taken much for the strangulation to finish things. Thus not the usual physical signs of damage usually seen with death by strangulation.

 

[Zodiac_Speaking]

I think what happened in between was the staging. The ligature may have been the final piece of the staging…..with the realization that she was still alive, but also part of the staging to make it look like a sex crime (garroting). In her already very deteriorating state of health, already near death it would not have taken much for the strangulation to finish things. Thus not the usual physical signs of damage usually seen with death by strangulation.

I agree with you that it was part of the staging - but disagree (ish) on the timing of "between" ....

I think it was 100% SA activity that lead to the blow to the head - her resisting, screaming. I think the blow to the head was an accident in the sense that it was carried out in a moment of rage, or panic....

After she was struck and quiet - I believe phone call/s were made from JR cell phone for advice on "what to do?" --- It naturally follows logic that whoever JR called needed time to also think and make some phone calls on behalf of JR... that's where the 45 minute to 2 hour window "between" came into play....

They knew she wasn't dead. So why not just call 911 for immediate help while there was still hope??? Because the SA would have been discovered and with no one else to blame, who's gonna take the fall?? The Ramseys. Can't have that...

When JR received a call back from "whoever" that was helping - they told him it wouldn't be pretty but he needed to do X,Y, and Z - and he had to finish the job and blame everything on an "intruder."

That's 100% what I believe more or less happened that night. Either that or Burke did it and the same scenario played out with phone calls - and they covered it up. Either way, they covered it up.

All theory. All speculation. No proof. Just to me what makes the most sense. I keep going back to the Law Enforcements and FBI's comments with a gleam in their eyes and a hint of "wink, wink" that "There's never been a case like this before or since." - They won't say much out of fear of getting sued but they do keep repeating that phrase.... they know. Can't prove it.

 

[GRT]

But to be fair, the police can and often do lie, not only to the suspects but to the public. They can lie and mislead so that when they get a "real" suspect - the "real" suspect will typically know things, and in what order, that only the killer/s would know. Then they get their "gotcha" moment.

RSBM for focus.

Yes, and they did that to an extreme extent in this case, ostensibly because the killing hit the tabloids virtually overnight, and the story exploded on an international scale. BPD went into "the best defense is a good offense" mode.

In a way, I get it when LE holds back info so they can eventually determine who the real killer is, but there should be a time limit.

At some point, the case grows cold enough that justice is no longer served by LE keeping secret information. And when it reaches that point, LE becomes the one standing in the way of justice.

Often, such as in the case of the BPD, they screw up so royally that they try to ferret the evidence away forever.

Only time will tell if this new BPD Chief is serious about finally solving the case of a murdered little girl.

 

[CloudedTruth]

I agree with you that it was part of the staging - but disagree (ish) on the timing of "between" ....

I think it was 100% SA activity that lead to the blow to the head - her resisting, screaming. I think the blow to the head was an accident in the sense that it was carried out in a moment of rage, or panic....

After she was struck and quiet - I believe phone call/s were made from JR cell phone for advice on "what to do?" --- It naturally follows logic that whoever JR called needed time to also think and make some phone calls on behalf of JR... that's where the 45 minute to 2 hour window "between" came into play....

They knew she wasn't dead. So why not just call 911 for immediate help while there was still hope??? Because the SA would have been discovered and with no one else to blame, who's gonna take the fall?? The Ramseys. Can't have that...

When JR received a call back from "whoever" that was helping - they told him it wouldn't be pretty but he needed to do X,Y, and Z - and he had to finish the job and blame everything on an "intruder."

That's 100% what I believe more or less happened that night. Either that or Burke did it and the same scenario played out with phone calls - and they covered it up. Either way, they covered it up.

All theory. All speculation. No proof. Just to me what makes the most sense. I keep going back to the Law Enforcements and FBI's comments with a gleam in their eyes and a hint of "wink, wink" that "There's never been a case like this before or since." - They won't say much out of fear of getting sued but they do keep repeating that phrase.... they know. Can't prove it.

We are in agreement.....this is pretty much my theory as to what happened as well.

It started with the SA, then came the head blow. But I do think it's possible that they did think she was dead, or very near death....at least for awhile. JR called Bynum instead of 911 exactly for the reason stated.....fear of discovery of the SA. The rest was done with educated advice as a guide. At that point, it had been decided what the priority was for "saving". That was the Ramsey reputation upon which there was a lot riding....everything, really.

I recall on the 26th after learning what details there were at the time, the FBI agent advised police they would find a body.

 

[GRT]

JR called Bynum instead of 911 exactly for the reason stated.....fear of discovery of the SA.

RSBM for focus.

When they obtained Ramsey's home phone and cellular records, it didn't mention that call to Bynum.

Do you think the Ramseys paid off the phone companies?

 

[CloudedTruth]

RSBM for focus.

When they obtained Ramsey's home phone and cellular records, it didn't mention that call to Bynum.

Do you think the Ramseys paid off the phone companies?

Well, something isn't right with all of that.

They only received phone records that JR wanted to hand over because the DA never acted on the subpoenas for all the records. They sat on Hunter's desk for a year. A year is a long time during which who knows what could be done. Especially when your lawyer is Hal Haddon who is well known equally for his skills and his powerful connections.

The records handed over were incomplete and limited in terms of what months they included. For JR's cell phone the entire month of December showed virtually nothing. Rather suspicious when compared with the activity for November for example.

 

[GRT]

Well, something isn't right with all of that.

They only received phone records that JR wanted to hand over because the DA never acted on the subpoenas for all the records. They sat on Hunter's desk for a year. A year is a long time during which who knows what could be done. Especially when your lawyer is Hal Haddon who is well known equally for his skills and his powerful connections.

The records handed over were incomplete and limited in terms of what months they included. For JR's cell phone the entire month of December showed virtually nothing. Rather suspicious when compared with the activity for November for example.

It took a while, but LE got both the cellular and the home phone records for all of December, ending at midnight on 12/27.

The records were complete--only the cellular records for December were empty, because JR had, indeed lost his cellphone.

The call you claimed he made--did not appear on either of the records.

Over the years, I've seen a lot of claims like that --- seemingly damning, but they don't pan out.

 

[CloudedTruth]

It took a while, but LE got both the cellular and the home phone records for all of December, ending at midnight on 12/27.

The records were complete--only the cellular records for December were empty, because JR had, indeed lost his cellphone.

The call you claimed he made--did not appear on either of the records.

Over the years, I've seen a lot of claims like that --- seemingly damning, but they don't pan out.

Key words there, “home phone records”. They did not get JR’s work phone records.

Neither PR or JR could remember exactly when JR lost his cell phone, but she does say it was one she had bought for him a few years before. His personal cell phone. JR had at least one work cell phone possibly two, paid for by LM. That was not the “lost” phone and those records they were never able to obtain.

 

[Bean&Cheese]

We don't know what she said to the GJ because that's sealed, but we do know that she filed lawsuits against the DA and the Ramseys, but was not successful with either.

I'm not sure she's a nut, but I think she was greedy and perhaps pushed by her husband and a money-hungry lawyer to go after the Ramseys. Not sure what she thought she could get out of Alex Hunter, but she lost that one too.

She was so quick to point fingers

Does that imply that nothing happened to JB for that assumed time till death by strangulation? ie skull fracture….45 minutes to 2 hours… strangulation?
The ligature could have been constructed on JB, the tightening begun, interruption (blow to the head-either standing or sitting), and due to that, panic ensued. The ligature meant to be loosened is left in place despite efforts to remove it - after trying to revive JB from unconsciousness. The cord caused swelling, but did not break any bones. Could a ligature, taut but not completely cause strangulation over time? Would the swelling add to the ultimate decrease in oxygen that ended her life?
It’s hard for me to wrap my head around the strangulation of an unconscious child….
MOO

I agree. I think that she had the garrote placed first and it was for sexual asphyxiation by the perpetrator (whomever you think it is) because the lack of oxygen causes the muscles to contract like the victim is enjoying it (this was explained in a podcast, but I can’t remember the exact one). Then, at 3am, the neighbor heard a child scream followed by the sound of the grate by moving a while later. I think the victim got scared at that time and hit her on the head to kill her for good and bounced thinking that he (or she) was about to be caught. So, kind of a simultaneous thing. There is evidence that she was inside of that suitcase that was under the window so I don’t know if (say it was an intruder) if maybe he intended it to be a kidnapping, but plans changed when he couldn’t fit the suitcase out the basement window (like maybe she was waking up too quickly after being tased). So, instead, he decided to fulfill his fantasy in that basement and kill her before escaping. She had “claw” marks where the ligature was like she was trying to fight it so, she had to have still be alive when she had the head blow.

 

[CloudedTruth]

She was so quick to point fingers

I agree. I think that she had the garrote placed first and it was for sexual asphyxiation by the perpetrator (whomever you think it is) because the lack of oxygen causes the muscles to contract like the victim is enjoying it (this was explained in a podcast, but I can’t remember the exact one). Then, at 3am, the neighbor heard a child scream followed by the sound of the grate by moving a while later. I think the victim got scared at that time and hit her on the head to kill her for good and bounced thinking that he (or she) was about to be caught. So, kind of a simultaneous thing. There is evidence that she was inside of that suitcase that was under the window so I don’t know if (say it was an intruder) if maybe he intended it to be a kidnapping, but plans changed when he couldn’t fit the suitcase out the basement window (like maybe she was waking up too quickly after being tased). So, instead, he decided to fulfill his fantasy in that basement and kill her before escaping. She had “claw” marks where the ligature was like she was trying to fight it so, she had to have still be alive when she had the head blow.

The scream was heard sometime between midnight and 2am. Then what sounded like metal on cement, not the grate moving. There is no proof that JBR was ever in the suitcase. There were no claw marks on her neck and no proof that she was tased. That was Lou Smit’s theory that he could not prove because no stun gun existed that matched the marks, which the coroner identified as bruises. The vast majority of experts consulted agreed, the head blow came first.

 

[GreatAgain]

I think Burke did it...

 

[Zodiac_Speaking]

The scream was heard sometime between midnight and 2am. Then what sounded like metal on cement, not the grate moving. There is no proof that JBR was ever in the suitcase. There were no claw marks on her neck and no proof that she was tased. That was Lou Smit’s theory that he could not prove because no stun gun existed that matched the marks, which the coroner identified as bruises. The vast majority of experts consulted agreed, the head blow came first.

Just asking for clarification on one point. "No claw marks on her neck" - Everything else you said, I agree 100% and am on the same page. Yep.

But in a moment of morbid curiosity, I looked at the photos (a candy rose site, or something like that) (I think) and there was one photo where it absolutely looked like JBR had "clawed" at the rope / twine / whatever it was in order to breath as any person would ---- until you realize she was very likely unconscious at that point if you believe the police timeline (or was she?)

If those weren't claw marks, what where they? Looked immediately like tiny fingernail markings to me. I did not look into it further as I thought the photo spoke for itself. Not arguing at all. I defer to you. I can find the photo if you want but I really don't want to link it here. I could DM you the link perhaps? You probably know exactly what I'm talking about. IMHO, those were not the marks of the rope.... I saw those marks too - these were very different looking.

One other question - Was there, or was there not "Unknown male DNA" under her fingernails? I've read there was, and I've read something else saying there was not.

 

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[CloudedTruth]

Just asking for clarification on one point. "No claw marks on her neck" - Everything else you said, I agree 100% and am on the same page. Yep.

But in a moment of morbid curiosity, I looked at the photos (a candy rose site, or something like that) (I think) and there was one photo where it absolutely looked like JBR had "clawed" at the rope / twine / whatever it was in order to breath as any person would ---- until you realize she was very likely unconscious at that point if you believe the police timeline (or was she?)

If those weren't claw marks, what where they? Looked immediately like tiny fingernail markings to me. I did not look into it further as I thought the photo spoke for itself. Not arguing at all. I defer to you. I can find the photo if you want but I really don't want to link it here. I could DM you the link perhaps? You probably know exactly what I'm talking about. IMHO, those were not the marks of the rope.... I saw those marks too - these were very different looking.

One other question - Was there, or was there not "Unknown male DNA" under her fingernails? I've read there was, and I've read something else saying there was not.

I’ve seen the pictures too. I think to the untrained eye, it can be believed what has been theorized.

The coroner identified the small marks as petechia, which is a common result of strangulation. There was also some bruising noted. If they were her claw marks, one would expect to find proof of that with substantial amounts of her own neck skin under her fingernails. There was not.

There was a very small amount of foreign DNA identified from under her fingernails. It has been claimed that it matches the UM1 from her underwear, but the test results were inconclusive. They could not rule out that it might be a match, nor could it be confirmed that it was/is. There was not enough of that foreign DNA for a conclusive result.

 

[Zodiac_Speaking]

I’ve seen the pictures too. I think to the untrained eye, it can be believed what has been theorized.

The coroner identified the small marks as petechia, which is a common result of strangulation. There was also some bruising noted. If they were her claw marks, one would expect to find proof of that with substantial amounts of her own neck skin under her fingernails. There was not.

There was a very small amount of foreign DNA identified from under her fingernails. It has been claimed that it matches the UM1 from her underwear, but the test results were inconclusive. They could not rule out that it might be a match, nor could it be confirmed that it was/is. There was not enough of that foreign DNA for a conclusive result.

Thank you. Understood. Now I see it.

 

[GRT]

If those weren't claw marks, what where they? Looked immediately like tiny fingernail markings to me. I did not look into it further as I thought the photo spoke for itself.

You're in good company. Many think those look like tiny fingernail marks.