CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #10

[squareandrabbet]

I think when the weatherpeople say the temps, they don't do it in direct sunlight, so it will be likely hotter in person in the direct sunlight. Also doesn't take any humidity factors into account (which I think the desert likely doesn't have an issue with??!!) ie here where I live, they'll post a temp, and then also a 'feels like' temp, which is much higher due to our humidity levels. Whatever the temps were for that day however, my bet is they weren't 'direct sunlight' temps.. and not sure how much protection from sun there would be in the location where B was said to have been? jmo.

In my experience it's pretty reliable that the local stations report on weather based upon the local airports (may check other geographic places also, but I assume that's because the air traffic controllers need up to date pictures of conditions).

As for your surmise, I think you are absolutely correct, because I remember once upon a time someone telling me that you should never go by a bank, gas station, etc., type of outdoor clock, and expect remotely any accuracy. The rationale behind this is that said clock's thermometer has been, you guessed it, baking in the sun; and thus is reporting an artificially high temperature compared to the surrounding atmosphere, etc.

 

[10ofRods]

..

Well, the VI is the one who requested the Drone Search so I'm assuming it has not been done.

As far as I know, LE has never given him an answer to that request.

But if there is any way to find someone who can conduct one using thermal imaging, I think it would be very useful.

It can help to either confirm or discount whether or not a body is there.

IMO

Thermal imaging was ruled out initially and would be even more so, now.

I think you're meaning LIDAR (laser technology that measures slight deformations of top layers of soil as things underneath shift. It's true that if they had gone out when skeletal remains were visible from numerous fly-overs, that over time, repeated (expensive) fly-overs would occur, the differences measured and slowly, the image of a body would appear. It's not an instant technology. It must have a highly referenced starting point (referenced with points of laser light bouncing to and fro, as I understand it).

Archaeologists seem to be the biggest specialists in this technology, but there aren't a lot of them. I know it's also used in structural analysis and self-driving cars, but if anyone has word of it being used to locate a human body (whose current configuration is unknown), I would really like to read more about it.

 

[MsBetsy]

..


Thermal imaging was ruled out initially and would be even more so, now.

I think you're meaning LIDAR (laser technology that measures slight deformations of top layers of soil as things underneath shift. It's true that if they had gone out when skeletal remains were visible from numerous fly-overs, that over time, repeated (expensive) fly-overs would occur, the differences measured and slowly, the image of a body would appear. It's not an instant technology. It must have a highly referenced starting point (referenced with points of laser light bouncing to and fro, as I understand it).

Archaeologists seem to be the biggest specialists in this technology, but there aren't a lot of them. I know it's also used in structural analysis and self-driving cars, but if anyone has word of it being used to locate a human body (whose current configuration is unknown), I would really like to read more about it.

I didn't know it was ruled out.
I was referring to thermal imagining, where the heat created by a decomposing body and the ground surrounding it would be warmer than the environment.
Or maybe it's infra red camera's.
Either one.
I thought both could detect heat.

Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

I don't know anybody who could survive the desert for 9 days in a bikini and no water.Maybe your experience is different than mine.

I wouldn't think someone could survive that long either.
But that doesn't mean they would give up searching after 3 or 4 days, which they didn't.

I think it's standard procedure.

And no, fortunately I have never had that experience. There may be some here who have, though.

IMO

 

[deugirtni]

BBM

Actually, the desert humidity tends to be low except for monsoon season (which we have entered). Humidity where I live has been running about 45% in the morning down to about 20% or less later in the day.

That's what I meant.. not an issue for the desert.. although I'm near Toronto, I hate the cold and want to live in Florida.. and people always say, 'oh but the humidity, choose Arizona instead which is just as hot but without the humidity, so it doesn't get so wicked'.. and likewise for wayyyyyy up north.. some people tell me that way up north even though the temps say WAY colder than where I am, it 'doesn't feel as cold as here, because of the lack of humidity up there'.

 

[deugirtni]

In my experience it's pretty reliable that the local stations report on weather based upon the local airports (may check other geographic places also, but I assume that's because the air traffic controllers need up to date pictures of conditions).

As for your surmise, I think you are absolutely correct, because I remember once upon a time someone telling me that you should never go by a bank, gas station, etc., type of outdoor clock, and expect remotely any accuracy. The rationale behind this is that said clock's thermometer has been, you guessed it, baking in the sun; and thus is reporting an artificially high temperature compared to the surrounding atmosphere, etc.

Yes, unless you actually *are* baking in the sun unprotected from buildings and treets and such!

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I didn't know it was ruled out.
I was referring to thermal imagining, where the heat created by a decomposing body and the ground surrounding it would be warmer than the environment.
Or maybe it's infra red camera's.
Either one.
I thought both could detect heat.

Imo

I would assume that bones and clothing laying on the desert surface may absorb heat differently than the natural rocks and soil making those things stand out in a thermal imaging scan.

I'll have to research that more to see if it's possible. JMO

 

[squareandrabbet]

Agree to disagree I suppose.Two hours with exposed skin in Death Valley is a recipe for disaster.Maybe that is the reason she wanted to get beck to the RV.Imagine exposed shoulders in 115 degree heat and sun.

I shudder when I think of it. I hate heat. I feel like I'm being punished, like the sun is attempting to burn a hole straight through me.

However, at some point in her 60s, my mother, previously "60+SPF, Long Sleeves, and Hat Girl", all of a sudden became "Sun Worshipper Girl". She, my father, and my sister, go on beach vacations and bake. No umbrellas; no nothing except sunglasses and maybe a hat; whereas I'm whimpering and crawling for the nearest shade bar. I think all of a sudden my mother got some wacky idea that "natural Vitamin D" outweighed the risk of skin cancer, etc., etc.; but I digress.

Just because broiling is anathema to me, does not mean that some people don't enjoy it; take pride in their abilities to withstand extreme heat; and some options I'm sure I've never even heard of.

Do I think that someone would plan a multi-hour desert hike in the described BT outfit? No, I do not; but some people seem to be confusing "scheduling and intent", with "likelihood and probability".

I have no problem with Barb dressing in the described way; assuming that Barb herself had no plans to spend outsized amount of time outside in the sun, and instead thought this was going to be a tame 1-2 mile stroll at most.

However, just because Barb envisioned her day unfolding in a certain way; does not mean that her day developed in the manner in which she was envisioning it to do so.

If Barb was determined to climb Mt. Kilimanjaro, I'm sure she would have come equipped to do so, with flares, technical clothing, Sterno stove, etc. When you're going out to peruse a nature trail, I don't know about you personally, but I myself don't do so with a collapsible cane in my backpack, just in case I twist my ankle, trip, and fall down a mountainside. We also don't tend to carry umbrellas when we don't see a cloud in the sky, because it all depends upon (*drumroll*)... our expectations.

 

[MsBetsy]

I shudder when I think of it. I hate heat. I feel like I'm being punished, like the sun is attempting to burn a hole straight through me.

However, at some point in her 60s, my mother, previously "60+SPF, Long Sleeves, and Hat Girl", all of a sudden became "Sun Worshipper Girl". She, my father, and my sister, go on beach vacations and bake. No umbrellas; no nothing except sunglasses and maybe a hat; whereas I'm whimpering and crawling for the nearest shade bar. I think all of a sudden my mother got some wacky idea that "natural Vitamin D" outweighed the risk of skin cancer, etc., etc.; but I digress.

Just because broiling is anathema to me, does not mean that some people don't enjoy it; take pride in their abilities to withstand extreme heat; and some options I'm sure I've never even heard of.

Do I think that someone would plan a multi-hour desert hike in the described BT outfit? No, I do not; but some people seem to be confusing "scheduling and intent", with "likelihood and probability".

I have no problem with Barb dressing in the described way; assuming that Barb herself had no plans to spend outsized amount of time outside in the sun, and instead thought this was going to be a tame 1-2 mile stroll at most.

However, just because Barb envisioned her day unfolding in a certain way; does not mean that her day developed in the manner in which she was envisioning it to do so.

If Barb was determined to climb Mt. Kilimanjaro, I'm sure she would have come equipped to do so, with flares, technical clothing, Sterno stove, etc. When you're going out to peruse a nature trail, I don't know about you personally, but I myself don't do so with a collapsible cane in my backpack, just in case I twist my ankle, trip, and fall down a mountainside. We also don't tend to carry umbrellas when we don't see a cloud in the sky, because it all depends upon (*drumroll*)... our expectations.

Haha, I know exactly how you feel.
I am a "heat hater" myself.
80 degrees is too hot for me.
But I guess we have to remember that everyone is different, and there is also the notion that people become acclimated to a certain degree of heat, and Barbara and RT seemed to enjoy spending time outside in this kind of weather. I wonder if either one of them could not stand the cold.

IMO

 

[cazador]

In the world of SAR outside you are searching dead or alive

 

[Ravenmoon]

bbm


If LE still considers BT as a possible-lost-in-the-desert victim and are no longer searching for her in the broader area then something is amiss.

Sorry , but SAR can only search an area for so long. It is expensive and takes a lot of resources from other cases.
I live in the Mojave desert and it happens.
It happens too often.
One HAS to see the terrain, be in the terrain and experience just HOW disorienting it is.
Finding someone out here that goes "off trail" is akin to finding a needle in a haystack, with the odds DECREASING any time the weather changes.
A monsoon season will cover tracks, items, trails and shift boulders when the rains have been heavy.
The Mojave has taken many, and if the victims aren't found in the first week,
it isn't uncommon for them to remain lost for years.

EBM for spelling

 

[al66pine]

Accuracy of Commercial/Outdoor Sign w Time & Temp?

.... I remember once upon a time someone telling me that you should never go by a bank, gas station, etc., type of outdoor clock, and expect remotely any accuracy. The rationale behind this is that said clock's thermometer has been.... baking in the sun; and thus is reporting an artificially high temperature compared to the surrounding atmosphere, etc.

@squareandrabbit Thanks for your post. bbm
Agreeing that some years back that bbm was valid, re outdoor commercial signs w clock & temps, but inaccurate temps on those may not be so common these days.
More modern signs for these may/are likely to have a remote sensor - remote sensor not placed in the sun - which transmits the shaded temp to electronic signs, so the display is closer to ambient temp. ^jmo

Even a $20 USD (16 Lb.(?) 'Atomic Clock' or "Skyscan Clock' at home showing indoor and outdoor temp has remote sensor (half the size of TV remote) which sends the temp to clock to display; remote transmits up to 100 ft. or ~30 meters. Install/set up instruxn say (paraphrasing from my atomic clock's manual) Place remote away from direct sunlight, rain, & snow. Best place is under the eave on the north side of building.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That said, every time I go into town, I drive past a bank clock w hands showing time as 7:32 , but no temp ever. Been that way for years. But I don't complain. When I was a child some years back, a sundial was state of the art. LOL

 

[al66pine]

In the world of SAR outside you are searching dead or alive

My apologies, not sure I'm following. Any further explanation for ppl in the slow lane (me)? Thx in adv.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

My apologies, not sure I'm following. Any further explanation for ppl in the slow lane (me)? Thx in adv.

He may be referring to recent posts about SAR/drones using thermal imaging to find either decomposing remains or bones in the desert.

Meaning SAR will look for the missing whether they are alive or dead. JMO

 

[cazador]

He may be referring to recent posts about SAR/drones using thermal imaging to find either decomposing remains or bones in the desert.

Meaning SAR will look for the missing whether they are alive or dead. JMO

I apologize .. Normal for me to be at my office or at home on a computer ... But Today I am reading on my cell phone and RANCH is correct .. I was reading posts about searching for 9 days ... At 9 days they are not looking for a live person .. After 2 days they are searching .. but all SAR members know what they are searching for .. If they find a live person it is an amazing event.. jmho

 

[al66pine]

Would Thermal Imaging Camera or Infra-Red Camera Help Now? Or Before?

I didn't know it was ruled out.
I was referring to thermal imagining, where the heat created by a decomposing body and the ground surrounding it would be warmer than the environment.
Or maybe it's infra red camera's.
Either one.
I thought both could detect heat.
Imo

@MsBetsy Hello again. bbm IIUC, both types of cameras detect differences in temperature among the objects within the frame.

W no scientific link to support it I wonder, if remains have been there for 2 1/2 mo, whether the remains and surrounding ground would reach temperature parity.
If they were same temperature, neither the thermal imaging camera/TIC or infra-red camera would distinguish the remains from surrounding ground, IIUC, so would not be helpful.

If TIC or infra-red camera had taken image within a short time (say one day? maybe more?) of exact location of newly deceased body, IIUC, the temps of body and ground would be different. If so then camera could have taken image, by which LE/SAR could have located remains.
jmo, could be all wrong.
________________________________________________
“Wescott does his work with human remains in central Texas, where temperatures can average in the 90s during the summer months. In the intense sun, the bodies “mummify pretty quickly, within about three months,” he said. “Then it takes a long time for them to decay past that. In shaded areas, after three to four months, they become a skeleton.” In general — though not always — he’s found that bodies decompose faster in hotter, more humid climes than in colder, drier spots.

This is true not only for human remains but animal remains as well, Wescott added.”
^ From Flesh to Bone: The Role of Weather in Body Decomposition | The Weather Channel

"The temperature surrounding the corpse can be affected by the weather, but also whether the cadaver was found in the sunlight or in the shade is pertinent.
^ Decomposition – The Forensics Library
^ aboutforensics.co.uk/decomposition

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Would Thermal Imaging Camera or Infra-Red Camera Help Now? Or Before?

@MsBetsy Hello again. bbm IIUC, both types of cameras detect differences in temperature among the objects within the frame.

W no scientific link to support it I wonder, if remains have been there for 2 1/2 mo, whether the remains and surrounding ground would reach temperature parity.
If they were same temperature, neither the thermal imaging camera/TIC or infra-red camera would distinguish the remains from surrounding ground, IIUC, so would not be helpful.

If TIC or infra-red camera had taken image within a short time (say one day? maybe more?) of exact location of newly deceased body, IIUC, the temps of body and ground would be different. If so then camera could have taken image, by which LE/SAR could have located remains.
jmo, could be all wrong.
________________________________________________
“Wescott does his work with human remains in central Texas, where temperatures can average in the 90s during the summer months. In the intense sun, the bodies “mummify pretty quickly, within about three months,” he said. “Then it takes a long time for them to decay past that. In shaded areas, after three to four months, they become a skeleton.” In general — though not always — he’s found that bodies decompose faster in hotter, more humid climes than in colder, drier spots.

This is true not only for human remains but animal remains as well, Wescott added.”
^ From Flesh to Bone: The Role of Weather in Body Decomposition | The Weather Channel

"The temperature surrounding the corpse can be affected by the weather, but also whether the cadaver was found in the sunlight or in the shade is pertinent.
^ Decomposition – The Forensics Library
^ aboutforensics.co.uk/decomposition

Are you saying that all materials will have the same thermal signature if exposed to the same environment after a significant period of time?

 

[al66pine]

Are you saying that all materials will have the same thermal signature if exposed to the same environment after a significant period of time?

@RANCH Glad for your post, as it suggests we'll get the benefit of someone knowledgable about
Thermal Imaging Cameras and/or InfraRed. If you have answers to your post, pls tell us. No sarc/no sarc. Info below is extent of my knowledge.
From red below, I was trying to apply the temp difference btwn remains & ground as something TIC and/or Infra Red would be able to distinguish, if, in fact they were different.
Now I am officially in over my head, so pls explain any thoughts on your question. Thx in adv.

"Infrared signature, as used by defense scientists and the military, is the appearance of objects to infrared sensors. An infrared signature depends on many factors, including the shape and size of the object, temperature, and emissivity, reflection of external sources from the object's surface, the background against which it is viewed and the waveband of the detecting sensor. As such there is no all-encompassing definition of infrared signature nor any trivial means of measuring it. For example..."
"Two fairly successful examples of defining the infrared signature of an object are the apparent temperature difference at the sensor and the contrast radiant intensity (CRI) definitions.
Apparent temperature difference
The apparent temperature difference method of defining infrared signature gives the physical temperature difference (e.g. in kelvins) between the object of interest and the immediate background if the recorded radiance values had been measured from perfect blackbody sources. Problems with this method include differences in radiance across the object or the immediate background and the finite size of the detector's pixels. The value is a complex function of range, time, aspect, etc...."
Infrared signature - Wikipedia

 

[Chingaling]

MsBetsy said :
They searched for nine days because that is the longest time anyone could possibly be alive in those conditions. Imo
They said they will search again if there is any new evidence.


@Chingaling. Thanks for your post.
Not answering for @MsBetsy re nine day search time as longest desert survival time, although I more or less repeated it in one of my posts.
Probably more accurate to say nine days in those desert conditions (no prep, no supplies, no gear, no water, etc) is longer than feasible survival period, imo.
I wonder if, starting at days 4-5, LE & SAR viewed it more as recovery than rescue mission.
jmo.

More
than likely after the second day would be recovery

 

[Kapua]

Sorry , but SAR can only search an area for so long. It is expensive and takes a lot of resources from other cases.
I live in the Mojave desert and it happens.
It happens too often.
One HAS to see the terrain, be in the terrain and experience just HOW disorienting it is.
Finding someone out here that goes "off trail" is akin to finding a needle in a haystack, with the odds DECREASING any time the weather changes.
A monsoon season will cover tracks, items, trails and shift boulders when the rains have been heavy.
The Mojave has taken many, and if the victims aren't found in the first week,
it isn't uncommon for them to remain lost for years.

EBM for spelling

I don't disagree with your general statement. However, in this particular case, we are discussing a short walk (~1 mile walk) on a trail that leads to a rock formation (see enclosed picture.) The person who took this picture is a WS member who WAS there (ref. media thread, link below.) On the way BACK down this trail, BT would have had a clear view of the road. And with the surrounding cholla cactus and lack of anything noteworthy off-trail, I cannot imagine her wandering off-trail and getting lost in this specific location. IF by chance she did, a 9-day search by a team of experienced rescuers equipped with off-road vehicles, helicopters, and search dogs should have revealed her whereabouts.

MOO, and I respect those who hold a different opinion.

AZ - AZ - Barbara Thomas, 69, Timeline, Media, Maps, *NO DISCUSSION*