CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #9

[firstsleuth]

After reading dbdb11's sister's text message, My brain shot back to another issue we've discussed a lot. Not meaning to derail the current topic...carry on and perhaps weigh in later?

If you look at the post provided by the VI - there are very few details....

CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, Bullhead City, hiking wearing bikini in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019

from dbdb11's sister's text posted above, BBM:
"robbie said that he just wants barbara back and will press no charges against the person who abducted her so long as they return her. the call was delivered in a measured tone but he broke down a bit at this point, was tough to hear"

I know we've gone round and round about RT "breaking down" at this same point in both of the tv interviews. However iirc, I don't think it's been pointed out that he also broke down at the same point while telling the story on the phone to Barbara's brother -- according to dbdb11's sister's text; although I've been waiting for someone to mention it.

I've been thinking about RT's crying at the same point in the story a lot this week; even did a search of the peer-reviewed literature to see if there was anything there. I didn't find anything from the literature worth repeating, not that I did an exhaustive search.

My question is whether there is any research on this topic of crying at the same time during story re-telling. I spent only an hour and searched the literature in behavior science, learning theories, narratives. I would think it might deserve more time from someone here that is more knowledgeable than I of the research on criminal behavior or even linguistics. This is not statement analysis, to be clear.

It came up for me this week because my husband is helping a friend write a eulogy for his 91-year-old mom who just passed away. All of us, my husband, our friend, my husband's assistant who is helping with edits, repeatedly were choked up at 2 very specific points during re-reading while editing the eulogy, and our friend broke down at the same 2 points as he was practicing the eulogy again this morning. It made me wonder if RT's crying at the same point in each telling of the story might be typical for someone who experienced trauma. Not that I'm anywhere near the side of the fence of his uninvolvement (well, except for his uninvolvement in taking action to find his DW) but this week, I actually had second thoughts on my opinion that his tears might be insincere. Maybe once we've choked up during a story, just maybe our brains are primed to choke up in similar circumstances. Sounds like a research study or potential research study to me that might be found in the existing literature somewhere.

MOO, JMHO, etc

edited first line to change "dbdb11's text" to "dbdb11's sister's text"

 

[GordianKnot]

but not very much chronological information, what time they left, where they stopped off (e,g, it doesn;t mention the stop at the gas station). So, some information is missing from what was relayed from the sister to the VI. Other things *could* be missing also.

The simplest explanation for that would be that RT didn't provide db's family with much specific information regarding the timeline of his & BT's activities and movements that day.

If RT didn't give db's family specific, detailed information, it pretty much precludes db's sister from being able to relate it to db.

JMO.

 

[Nikynoo]

I do think we should refrain from regarding that as a piece of info. The VI did say that LE told him that the photos showed that there was photographic evidence that RT & BT were there when RT said they were (but apparently didn't clarify exactly what that meant).

So if we think that LE was telling our VI the truth, we should not think there was no photographic evidence that they were there. Put more simply, the photos show they were there. But unless or until there is more specific info from the VI or from LE, we should forget about 2pm.

JMO

Thank you. Noted

 

[LAhiker]

it was in response to @GordianKnot post. If you use the timeline of the VI's sister, then the 2pm photo cannot exist. So, what is it? The VI's sisters timeline is correct, or does the 2pm photo, (which the VI has confirmed that LE stated exists (at 2pm)) exist. It the information that the photo exists, then the VI's recollection is incorrect. To be fair, she does say that her memory isn't great and I imagine she would have been stressed by what she heard, so mis-remembering is a possibility.

Did you mean to type "If the information [shows] that the photo exists, then the VI's sister's recollection is incorrect"?

 

[10ofRods]

I have yet to find anyone such as LE or our VI saying 2 PM. I'm curious as to the reason for the sad face. I feel it's a rumor that isn't stopping.

I think Dbdb originally said 2 pm (I think, not sure). I don't know if he deleted that post on his own or whether it was part of a chain of posts that got mod-deleted before he was verified. He started posting before he was verified. I think Dbdb did correct his original view and say that all that LE had confirmed was that they had definite photographic proof that Barbara was "there" that day. Dbdb did not reiterate the time. It's possible that given that Dbdb has had to work with 2 different timelines that if language such as "taken about half an hour before she went missing" could be interpreted in different ways.

At any rate, Dbdb has stated plainly that there is photographic proof of her being there and eventually got tired (MOO) of having to state that over and over again.

I know it matters to our theories when the photo was taken, but it is not going to be the case that we learn what time that photo was taken, any time soon. We only know that it exists. We don't even know how many cameras RT had or if he had another camera. Only the phone has been mentioned. Dbdb also said that after a second phone call with family, RT will only speak to his BiL and won't speak to any other family members on that side.

 

[Nikynoo]

The simplest explanation for that would be that RT didn't provide db's family with much specific information regarding the timeline of their activities and movements that day.

If RT didn't give db's family specific, detailed information, it pretty much precludes db's sister from being able to relate it to db.

JMO.

I disagree, I think he did and the VIs sister didn't recall it in her text -

'it was a long story that started at the beginning on friday morning and progressed chronologically throughout the day'.

 

[al66pine]

When is 'Lunch Time?'

Why would they be having lunch when they had left their house at 8:15am and simply stopped there along the way to a further camping destination, to take a look at some rock formations? If the couple had lunch, to me, that would suggest they had gone on their walk, returned to the RV, had lunch, and THEN she disappeared? imo.

@deugirtni Thanks for your post. bbm
OTOH, respectfully, why wouldn't they be having lunch then? Whenever 'then' is? Retirement schedules can be pretty flexible, even to the point of no scheduling at all.
AFAIK, we do not know when RT & BT usually woke, usually ate breakfast (if they usu. did); nor do we know those times for that day. 4:00am, 5:00am, 6:00am, 7:00am? Who knows? IDK, maybe I missed this info. jmo.

 

[Nikynoo]

Did you mean to type "If the information [shows] that the photo exists, then the VI's sister's recollection is incorrect"?

Yes, I did, thank you for pointing that out.

 

[GordianKnot]

I disagree, I think he did and the VIs sister didn't recall it in her text -

'it was a long story that started at the beginning on friday morning and progressed chronologically throughout the day'.

What makes you think RT gave db's sister specific times and a detailed account?

"Chronologically" simply means listing things in the sequential order in which they occurred.

As an example:

"I got up, got ready, left the house, went to work, ate lunch, returned to work and then came home later that evening," would be a chronological narrative.

While the above would be a chronological account, it would tell you precisely zippo, zero, nada and nil about what specific time I did any of those things, or where I was when any of those things occurred, or what else I might have done before, between or after any of those activities.

From what db's sister recounted, it sounds like that's the type of "chronological" account BT's family got from RT, which is to say, one vague as to time and short on details.

It sounds like "around noon" and "around a couple of hours later" is as specific as he got with regard to any times.

JMO.

 

[Nikynoo]

What makes you think RT gave db's sister specific times and a detailed account?

"Chronologically" simply means listing things in the sequential order in which they occurred.

As an example: "I got up, left the house, went to work and came home later," and that would be a chronological account.

Which would tell you precisely nothing about what time I did any of those things, or where I was when any of those things occurred, or what else I did between any of those activities.

JMO.

because of her text, which I quoted in my previous post. For ease of reference, the complete text is below. The relevant portion is BBM. The point I am trying to make is that RT supposedly gave a long account starting from friday morning. None of the detail of before Barbara went missing is contained in the text.

"
hmmm i don’t have the sharpest memory but i’ll try to recount as best as i can - robbie and said he needs to talk to daddy and that barbara’s missing. it was a long story that started at the beginning on friday morning and progressed chronologically throughout the day. the impression robbie gave me was that she was wearing a red cap, a bikini and carrying a travel cup with beer in it. they lost sight of each other for 5-10 minutes before she “vanished” and he went back to their rv to see if she had returned but it was still locked so that meant she hadn’t come back yet (they had put the key under a rock which they both knew the location of). so he went back to check a shaded cave that they had found together earlier thinking she may have been taking a break from the heat but she wasn’t there either. he still wasn’t worried at this point because.. i don’t remember why he said he wasn’t yet worried. maybe because they both knew the area? or this was a regular thing? idk not sure but he continued searching for her on his own. by around noon time it was getting terribly hot so he started getting worried and called 911. police arrived like 2 hours later and searched for her. robbie said throughout the day they had sniff dogs, horses, hundreds of people and even a helicopter (which unfortunately couldn’t use its infrared function because it was too hot out to get any useful readings) and nobody could find any trace of her. searched throughout the night too. nothing. she had just disappeared. robbie admits “it doesn’t make any sense” that she just wandered off and got lost and there’s no evidence.. which is why he suspects she may have been picked up in a car. also because from the spot where she went missing she had to cross a highway in order to get back to where their rv was parked. also apparently she took a 360 picture that morning from on top of a hill and the photo included a parking lot with some vehicles in it so the police are looking into their license plates/info.

robbie said that he just wants barbara back and will press no charges against the person who abducted her so long as they return her. the call was delivered in a measured tone but he broke down a bit at this point, was tough to hear ..abc reached out? idk if it was abc but some mainstream news outlet and i definitely heard nancy grace mentioned. robbie’s done some interviews as he wants to get the word out. but he hasn’t seen or read any of the released news and comments. it’s too much

he said he keeps returning to the spot where he lost her and overturning rocks and searching and searching hoping to find something. he was there the day he called us although i think he said he shouldn’t really go back there as protocol says he’s the first suspect. he was even held for 5hrs in a cop car on the first day. it’s been nonstop and nobody is sleeping. robbie said he had held off on calling daddy to tell him the bad news because it was such devastating news and he was hoping she would turn up.. but he couldn’t wait any longer. he also said it’s difficult to call into china and said his calls rarely go through so if we want to ask any questions or talk more we should call him.
txt msg from my sister. wish i.asked.for this.earlier... @10ofRods

 

[GordianKnot]

because of her text, which I quoted in my previous post. For ease of reference, the complete text is below. The relevant portion is BBM. The point I am trying to make is that RT supposedly gave a long account starting from friday morning. None of the detail of before Barbara went missing is contained in the text.

"
hmmm i don’t have the sharpest memory but i’ll try to recount as best as i can - robbie and said he needs to talk to daddy and that barbara’s missing. it was a long story that started at the beginning on friday morning and progressed chronologically throughout the day. the impression robbie gave me was that she was wearing a red cap, a bikini and carrying a travel cup with beer in it. they lost sight of each other for 5-10 minutes before she “vanished” and he went back to their rv to see if she had returned but it was still locked so that meant she hadn’t come back yet (they had put the key under a rock which they both knew the location of). so he went back to check a shaded cave that they had found together earlier thinking she may have been taking a break from the heat but she wasn’t there either. he still wasn’t worried at this point because.. i don’t remember why he said he wasn’t yet worried. maybe because they both knew the area? or this was a regular thing? idk not sure but he continued searching for her on his own. by around noon time it was getting terribly hot so he started getting worried and called 911. police arrived like 2 hours later and searched for her. robbie said throughout the day they had sniff dogs, horses, hundreds of people and even a helicopter (which unfortunately couldn’t use its infrared function because it was too hot out to get any useful readings) and nobody could find any trace of her. searched throughout the night too. nothing. she had just disappeared. robbie admits “it doesn’t make any sense” that she just wandered off and got lost and there’s no evidence.. which is why he suspects she may have been picked up in a car. also because from the spot where she went missing she had to cross a highway in order to get back to where their rv was parked. also apparently she took a 360 picture that morning from on top of a hill and the photo included a parking lot with some vehicles in it so the police are looking into their license plates/info.

robbie said that he just wants barbara back and will press no charges against the person who abducted her so long as they return her. the call was delivered in a measured tone but he broke down a bit at this point, was tough to hear ..abc reached out? idk if it was abc but some mainstream news outlet and i definitely heard nancy grace mentioned. robbie’s done some interviews as he wants to get the word out. but he hasn’t seen or read any of the released news and comments. it’s too much

he said he keeps returning to the spot where he lost her and overturning rocks and searching and searching hoping to find something. he was there the day he called us although i think he said he shouldn’t really go back there as protocol says he’s the first suspect. he was even held for 5hrs in a cop car on the first day. it’s been nonstop and nobody is sleeping. robbie said he had held off on calling daddy to tell him the bad news because it was such devastating news and he was hoping she would turn up.. but he couldn’t wait any longer. he also said it’s difficult to call into china and said his calls rarely go through so if we want to ask any questions or talk more we should call him.
txt msg from my sister. wish i.asked.for this.earlier... @10ofRods

I understand what you're saying, but length and specificity are not the same thing when it comes to story-telling.

Have you ever listened to a politician's speech?

They can go on and on for what seems like an eternity, and at the end, you realize they've said precisely nothing.

As a point of interest, salespeople have that same "gift of gab."

JMO.

 

[LAhiker]

because of her text, which I quoted in my previous post. For ease of reference, the complete text is below. The relevant portion is BBM. The point I am trying to make is that RT supposedly gave a long account starting from friday morning. None of the detail of before Barbara went missing is contained in the text.

"
hmmm i don’t have the sharpest memory but i’ll try to recount as best as i can - robbie and said he needs to talk to daddy and that barbara’s missing. it was a long story that started at the beginning on friday morning and progressed chronologically throughout the day. the impression robbie gave me was that she was wearing a red cap, a bikini and carrying a travel cup with beer in it. they lost sight of each other for 5-10 minutes before she “vanished” and he went back to their rv to see if she had returned but it was still locked so that meant she hadn’t come back yet (they had put the key under a rock which they both knew the location of). so he went back to check a shaded cave that they had found together earlier thinking she may have been taking a break from the heat but she wasn’t there either. he still wasn’t worried at this point because.. i don’t remember why he said he wasn’t yet worried. maybe because they both knew the area? or this was a regular thing? idk not sure but he continued searching for her on his own. by around noon time it was getting terribly hot so he started getting worried and called 911. police arrived like 2 hours later and searched for her. robbie said throughout the day they had sniff dogs, horses, hundreds of people and even a helicopter (which unfortunately couldn’t use its infrared function because it was too hot out to get any useful readings) and nobody could find any trace of her. searched throughout the night too. nothing. she had just disappeared. robbie admits “it doesn’t make any sense” that she just wandered off and got lost and there’s no evidence.. which is why he suspects she may have been picked up in a car. also because from the spot where she went missing she had to cross a highway in order to get back to where their rv was parked. also apparently she took a 360 picture that morning from on top of a hill and the photo included a parking lot with some vehicles in it so the police are looking into their license plates/info.

robbie said that he just wants barbara back and will press no charges against the person who abducted her so long as they return her. the call was delivered in a measured tone but he broke down a bit at this point, was tough to hear ..abc reached out? idk if it was abc but some mainstream news outlet and i definitely heard nancy grace mentioned. robbie’s done some interviews as he wants to get the word out. but he hasn’t seen or read any of the released news and comments. it’s too much

he said he keeps returning to the spot where he lost her and overturning rocks and searching and searching hoping to find something. he was there the day he called us although i think he said he shouldn’t really go back there as protocol says he’s the first suspect. he was even held for 5hrs in a cop car on the first day. it’s been nonstop and nobody is sleeping. robbie said he had held off on calling daddy to tell him the bad news because it was such devastating news and he was hoping she would turn up.. but he couldn’t wait any longer. he also said it’s difficult to call into china and said his calls rarely go through so if we want to ask any questions or talk more we should call him.
txt msg from my sister. wish i.asked.for this.earlier... @10ofRods

Thanks for reposting the text. As @GordianKnot has pointed out, "chronologically" just means RT listed what happened in the order that it happened. It doesn't mean that he necessarily gave lots of specific times. He might've, but given that it looks like she tried to remember as much as possible, I think if he'd given more times she would've tried to remember them.

I think it's frustrating not having more info than we do. JMO

 

[MsBetsy]

I have yet to find anyone such as LE or our VI saying 2 PM. I'm curious as to the reason for the sad face. I feel it's a rumor that isn't stopping.

It was not LE, but the VI that said he was told by LE that there was a picture of Barbara there at 2:00. (If that's what you are referring to)
Imo

 

[LAhiker]

It was not LE, but the VI that said he was told by LE that there was a picture of Barbara there at 2:00. (If that's what you are referring to)
Imo

Where did he say that? Is the post still up? I've been told he deleted a post saying something like that. If so, I think we should disregard it, as he presumably deleted it for a reason. JMO

 

[al66pine]

@deugirtni post
"Maybe there is a reason for that (the bolded part above).
Surely LE will share those last photos of BT with her grieving family? Why would they not share them with them? That just doesn't sound reasonable or likely at all. I wonder what is up with that. imo."

I agree to a certain extent, BUT, the IP lawyer in me says that they are not LE's photos to share.....

@Nikynoo Can you explain a bit further, pls? Are you saying ----
---LE does not have possession of camera/phone now?
---LE might have had possession of cam/phone earlier, ~ 1st day, (prob'ly) got warrant, copied pix files?
-- Even if LE has copies of pix files, would not have authority to release to public, i.e., LE's use would be limited to internal LE investigatory use (not LE's photos to share)?
--- Same as above, but not even to release to BT's family (not LE's photos to share)?
--- All of above?
--- None of above?
Thx in adv.

 

[MsBetsy]

Where did he say that? Is the post still up? I've been told he deleted a post saying something like that. If so, I think we should disregard it, as he presumably deleted it for a reason. JMO

It was a while ago, maybe about two weeks ago when he first verified that LE had pictures of Barbara in the desert. Prior to that he had only assumed that they had verified she was there.
I don't know if just part of the information was deleted, or just the time, or whether or not it was corrected to indicate another time, or if the whole post was deleted.
I haven't gone back to check.
So I guess we don't know exactly what time it was taken, but at least we know LE has pictures of her there.
Unless that post was deleted as well, I really don't know.
I'm just going by what I read. Imo

 

[Gigi3]

Does anyone remember if he contacted the family before or after the televised interviews? Thanks!

 

[Jo in Calif]

OK guys now I remember the post about the 2:00 time stamped photo that got deleted.
It was not the VI that posted about it, it was a member that posted it that came from a FB page, that’s why it was deleted.
The VI has just told us that there are photos, didn’t say it was time stamped.

 

[10ofRods]

because of her text, which I quoted in my previous post. For ease of reference, the complete text is below. The relevant portion is BBM. The point I am trying to make is that RT supposedly gave a long account starting from friday morning. None of the detail of before Barbara went missing is contained in the text.

"
hmmm i don’t have the sharpest memory but i’ll try to recount as best as i can - robbie and said he needs to talk to daddy and that barbara’s missing. it was a long story that started at the beginning on friday morning and progressed chronologically throughout the day. the impression robbie gave me was that she was wearing a red cap, a bikini and carrying a travel cup with beer in it. they lost sight of each other for 5-10 minutes before she “vanished” and he went back to their rv to see if she had returned but it was still locked so that meant she hadn’t come back yet (they had put the key under a rock which they both knew the location of). so he went back to check a shaded cave that they had found together earlier thinking she may have been taking a break from the heat but she wasn’t there either. he still wasn’t worried at this point because.. i don’t remember why he said he wasn’t yet worried. maybe because they both knew the area? or this was a regular thing? idk not sure but he continued searching for her on his own. by around noon time it was getting terribly hot so he started getting worried and called 911. police arrived like 2 hours later and searched for her. robbie said throughout the day they had sniff dogs, horses, hundreds of people and even a helicopter (which unfortunately couldn’t use its infrared function because it was too hot out to get any useful readings) and nobody could find any trace of her. searched throughout the night too. nothing. she had just disappeared. robbie admits “it doesn’t make any sense” that she just wandered off and got lost and there’s no evidence.. which is why he suspects she may have been picked up in a car. also because from the spot where she went missing she had to cross a highway in order to get back to where their rv was parked. also apparently she took a 360 picture that morning from on top of a hill and the photo included a parking lot with some vehicles in it so the police are looking into their license plates/info.

robbie said that he just wants barbara back and will press no charges against the person who abducted her so long as they return her. the call was delivered in a measured tone but he broke down a bit at this point, was tough to hear ..abc reached out? idk if it was abc but some mainstream news outlet and i definitely heard nancy grace mentioned. robbie’s done some interviews as he wants to get the word out. but he hasn’t seen or read any of the released news and comments. it’s too much

he said he keeps returning to the spot where he lost her and overturning rocks and searching and searching hoping to find something. he was there the day he called us although i think he said he shouldn’t really go back there as protocol says he’s the first suspect. he was even held for 5hrs in a cop car on the first day. it’s been nonstop and nobody is sleeping. robbie said he had held off on calling daddy to tell him the bad news because it was such devastating news and he was hoping she would turn up.. but he couldn’t wait any longer. he also said it’s difficult to call into china and said his calls rarely go through so if we want to ask any questions or talk more we should call him.
txt msg from my sister. wish i.asked.for this.earlier... @10ofRods

THANK you so much (although it is now just making me even more confused). This text was sent after RT informs the family that Barb is missing, obviously (which is...when? Isn't it something like 4 days after she disappeared?)

Now that I think about it, didn't Dbdb say his sister took notes from the call?

So the person who says she has a poor memory is the sister. Gotcha. Still goes to the point that this narrative is imperfect but sort of consistent with what we know.

On the first day of the search, I have seen no LE mention of horses or dogs. I think they do mention helicopter. According to this narrative, police arrive around 2 pm, which we know to be untrue. However, it does sound like RT has the entire set of events happening earlier if he says "throughout the day" LE did X or Y. Because LE didn't even arrive until 5:30 and had to set up operations.

Nixle doesn't mention K-9s or aviation until the 3rd day's update, but the first day's announcement has been deleted, so no way to know. There was no search "throughout the day" that day, as the search didn't get underway until about 6 pm. The tweets from that night are now deleted from SBCSO tweet feed, but I do think that there was reason to believe they searched well into the night (but not "throughout the day"). Remember, too, that RT later tells family that he was held inside a cop car for 5 hours. Was it that day?

Again, vague. But I believe RT is exaggerating in this narrative if the narrative is even vaguely accurate.

SAR tweets said there were 20 people there on day 3 (and it usually takes time to roust volunteers - they all have regular jobs). There were not "hundreds" of people there that first evening, IMO, but it may have seemed that way to RT? Or is it trying to make it look like everything possible had been done to save Barb? That would surely make her family feel better, but is it accurate? I don't think it is. Or, as sister says, her memory is faulty (perhaps she imagined 100's of searchers that day?) Could she be that far off?

I do believe they searched way into the night and I'm not surprised if RT was in a car for 5 hours (but it would be quite odd if they didn't at least first have him show them where to search?) He tells his family the same thing he tells the world: that he is the "first suspect."

SAR posts the dog search video (with the head K-9 handler, who is dual trained in K-9 and regular SAR search) on July 17. They say in the caption "The search is continuing" which strongly implies it's that day. A helicopter is also shown in that video.

At any rate, the times that RT appears to have given family (we may never know for sure) are at variance with the LE and SAR details. Plainly.

It's possible that since RT didn't call family right away, he sort of collapsed all the many events of the first few days when he told the story. It's interesting that the fact that the search was still ongoing was not mentioned or at least not texted to Dbdb.

I wonder if there's any neighbor video of RT leaving each night to go out and search when he's been asked not to be there.

 

[10ofRods]

Does anyone remember if he contacted the family before or after the televised interviews? Thanks!

I truly wish I knew. I think we could figure it out. The first interview is broadcast on Tuesday (16th I believe). I suspect it was actually filmed on Monday. Got confirmation from people I know that it looks to be around 2-3 in the afternoon (judging by shadows on the driveway). Too short a time for it to be broadcast in Vegas just a couple of hours later. So...Monday?

Did RT go on TV first? I think so. MOO.