CA CA - Baxter, WhtMale, 40-70, UP55126, beaten to point of death then burned alive, long-term abuse, US Army blanket, hospital gown, 3 Oct 1972

[strangerthanfiction1200]

Unfortunately, it isn't. It's so stupid. You can't use any articles from newspapers.com, content from Find a Grave, the software, the databases...as well as any similar products on MyHeritage, you have to go back to the original source (which sometimes we are finding is the fiche). It is absolutely slowing down casework and it is also extremely annoying.

Thank you for the information. How can a fiche be original? What about marriage certificates, death certificates, employment records, historical photographs? So, they want original sources which in some cases you cannot find anymore: lost, stolen, fires (particularly the 19th century). What I am thinking is that they want actual proof. Question for you concerning fiche: Isn't that a secondary source when it is copied at the library? I've been doing genealogy since 1999, so I am aware of the changes and controversy concerning privacy issues with DNA, Ancestry etc.

 

[TBYOOL]

This is fascinating and obviously frustrating. I know that microfilm or fiche can be the record copy if the creator destroyed the hard copies and certified them as such. I guess they can certify the film or fiche regardless of retention of the hardcopy files. Since many of the records are vital records, I guess they do keep them in most cases. I am curious if this applies to all film or fiche outside of a government organization or records creator, such as universities. I know courts will accept certifications from the custodial unit if not the creator if the custodial unit is the official holder of the formal record copy. Those legalities have long been in place when formalities are required.

And that applies to Family Search, too? The LDS microfilmed so much long before Ancestry was around.

Most surprisingly, I didn’t realize the Ancestry connection poisoned the well for Newspapers.com. This is a shock to me. I actually understand the underlying issues (not debating those just acknowledging there are real privacy and ethical concerns on DNA data mining without consent), but I don’t understand if you find a birth certificate, for example, without going through Ancestry why you can’t use a publicly available reference resource whether owned by Ancestry or not. That, as someone who has extensive experience in newspaper primary source research within an institutional environment, surprises me greatly. I don’t know how you “unsee” a source that is innocently presented to you or that you might come across by chance—again not a government record, but a newspaper source. I suppose it is liability overkill from a corporate perspective or even fear by users of potential liability. That said, I am not in the genetic genealogy world and didn’t know about the extent of the complexities.

Apologies as I didn’t mean to take our eyes off the prize. I wonder whether he was even in an institution towards the end. I also find the apparent lack of a Social Security or Veterans death claim interesting. If a claim had been filed, he would make the death index. I have this problem with a family member who disappeared. I can’t get military records or anything since he could technically still be alive at 109 and I don’t know his SSN. Whoever committed this murder, to me, most likely wanted to get rid of a problem (an awful characterization) more than collect a benefit.

 

[strangerthanfiction1200]

This is fascinating and obviously frustrating. I know that microfilm or fiche can be the record copy if the creator destroyed the hard copies and certified them as such. I guess they can certify the film or fiche regardless of retention of the hardcopy files. Since many of the records are vital records, I guess they do keep them in most cases. I am curious if this applies to all film or fiche outside of a government organization or records creator, such as universities. I know courts will accept certifications from the custodial unit if not the creator if the custodial unit is the official holder of the formal record copy. Those legalities have long been in place when formalities are required.

And that applies to Family Search, too? The LDS microfilmed so much long before Ancestry was around.

Most surprisingly, I didn’t realize the Ancestry connection poisoned the well for Newspapers.com. This is a shock to me. I actually understand the underlying issues (not debating those just acknowledging there are real privacy and ethical concerns on DNA data mining without consent), but I don’t understand if you find a birth certificate, for example, without going through Ancestry why you can’t use a publicly available reference resource whether owned by Ancestry or not. That, as someone who has extensive experience in newspaper primary source research within an institutional environment, surprises me greatly. I don’t know how you “unsee” a source that is innocently presented to you or that you might come across by chance—again not a government record, but a newspaper source. I suppose it is liability overkill from a corporate perspective or even fear by users of potential liability. That said, I am not in the genetic genealogy world and didn’t know about the extent of the complexities.

Apologies as I didn’t mean to take our eyes off the prize. I wonder whether he was even in an institution towards the end. I also find the apparent lack of a Social Security or Veterans death claim interesting. If a claim had been filed, he would make the death index. I have this problem with a family member who disappeared. I can’t get military records or anything since he could technically still be alive at 109 and I don’t know his SSN. Whoever committed this murder, to me, most likely wanted to get rid of a problem (an awful characterization) more than collect a benefit.

Thank you for your response. It actually helps me with research. A couple of points: Yes, LDS did have records before Ancestry. They were paper trees and it is part of being a Mormon (I know this personally, since I am an ex-Mormon, lived in SLC, Utah for 19 months, saw the files at the library and was there when Ancestry was being formed and was free). The early members had to go to the original places to get documents. Again, fires destroyed a lot of records, and they had to use other sources. Newspapers.com in my personal opinion are putting articles on the internet that were already published. Example in this case, Grover was mentioned in a 1945 article, well that was already published at the time. I agree with TBY00l about SSI. By 1972 that would not be an issue, a new generation of workers would be working in these facilities. There is a claim date, but he would not be on death index if he had died and was unidentified. I do not know the law in the 1950's and 1960's with SSI, since it was established in the 1930's and he was one of the first generation to get it. He did work for U.S. Radiator Corp in 1938 Minnesota and 1927 in Colorado. He was Warehouse Superintendent. Why write this? Photos of the past. They are looking for photographs, he could be in a photo somewhere, but deep research would require, libraries in Minnesota and Colorado.

 

[TBYOOL]

Thank you for your response. It actually helps me with research. A couple of points: Yes, LDS did have records before Ancestry. They were paper trees and it is part of being a Mormon (I know this personally, since I am an ex-Mormon, lived in SLC, Utah for 19 months, saw the files at the library and was there when Ancestry was being formed and was free). The early members had to go to the original places to get documents. Again, fires destroyed a lot of records, and they had to use other sources. Newspapers.com in my personal opinion are putting articles on the internet that were already published. Example in this case, Grover was mentioned in a 1945 article, well that was already published at the time. I agree with TBY00l about SSI. By 1972 that would not be an issue, a new generation of workers would be working in these facilities. There is a claim date, but he would not be on death index if he had died and was unidentified. I do not know the law in the 1950's and 1960's with SSI, since it was established in the 1930's and he was one of the first generation to get it. He did work for U.S. Radiator Corp in 1938 Minnesota and 1927 in Colorado. He was Warehouse Superintendent. Why write this? Photos of the past. They are looking for photographs, he could be in a photo somewhere, but deep research would require, libraries in Minnesota and Colorado.

Interesting and agree across the board though I think photos may be the hardest part since rarely did any ID have them even into the 70s in some places. He would have applied for an SSN most likely in the late 1930s. And though far fetched someone could have made a claim with some legal action to declare dead but the murder negated that course, I guess. I still wonder if he was not in an institution though at the time of his death and in the immediate years befoehand “advances” in care and a move against institutionalization unfortunately turned out many vulnerable people with no real support system. This mostly applied to mental patients but did occur at some longterm care facilities.

HOW RELEASE OF MENTAL PATIENTS BEGAN

THE policy that led to the release of most of the nation's mentally ill patients from the hospital to the community is now widely regarded as a major failure. Sweeping critiques of the policy, notably the recent report of the American Psychiatric Association, have spread the blame everywhere...

timesmachine.nytimes.com

 

[TBYOOL]

Interesting and agree across the board though I think photos may be the hardest part since rarely did any ID have them even into the 70s in some places. He would have applied for an SSN most likely in the late 1930s. And though far fetched someone could have made a claim with some legal action to declare dead but the murder negated that course, I guess. I still wonder if he was not in an institution though at the time of his death and in the immediate years befoehand “advances” in care and a move against institutionalization unfortunately turned out many vulnerable people with no real support system. This mostly applied to mental patients but did occur at some longterm care facilities.

HOW RELEASE OF MENTAL PATIENTS BEGAN

THE policy that led to the release of most of the nation's mentally ill patients from the hospital to the community is now widely regarded as a major failure. Sweeping critiques of the policy, notably the recent report of the American Psychiatric Association, have spread the blame everywhere...

timesmachine.nytimes.com

I guess too the issue is using Ancestry resources, even if not Ancestry related DNA, due to the corporate connections of the various companies. I just find the use of Newspapers.com a surprise but the legalities are beyond me and the underlying issues complex.

 

[The4TierBridge]

I guess too the issue is using Ancestry resources, even if not Ancestry related DNA, due to the corporate connections of the various companies. I just find the use of Newspapers.com a surprise but the legalities are beyond me and the underlying issues complex.

Ancestry directly owns newspapers.com and FindAGrave, which is why they're covered by this.

 

[TBYOOL]

Ancestry directly owns newspapers.com and FindAGrave, which is why they're covered by this.

Yep, I know just didn’t realize doing newspaper research on a person or family whose DNA was not obtained thru Ancestry would be impacted.

 

[strangerthanfiction1200]

Yep, I know just didn’t realize doing newspaper research on a person or family whose DNA was not obtained thru Ancestry would be impacted.

Again, thank you for responding. Thank you for the history lesson about SS he would have got a number as the first generation in the 1930's. I was hoping with photographs that there might be historical photos with people in them. Where I live, they have photos of people from the 1900-1940's. So, for my own understanding you can use Find a grave, Ancestry and Newspapers .com for research but not others? A lot of information for Ancestry comes from FamilySearch and paper trees that probably have not been loaded yet. What about bible, journals, etc? Those would be primary resources. I will still do some deep diving, until official announcement comes it has been solved.