CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #11

[zwiebel]

DNA could be obtained easily from; a hairbrush? Toothbrush? One of the OC articles shows a pack of his disposable razors, so I suppose if a used razor was in the bin, Bob's DNA should be very easy to obtain from that.

 

[Cubby]

According to NamUs, Bob's dna is on file.

https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/2706

As far as comparison to any UID's, that would depend on how long it takes the authorities to obtain DNA samples on the unidentified person. In some cases it can be months or years before DNA is obtained on a UID.

 

[zwiebel]

That's sad for missing people who slip through the net of public awareness. I suppose hard-pressed local authorities have to continually make judgement calls about budget needs and priorities. Cases in the news are always going to be bumped to the top of the agenda, while unidentified human remains that no-one particularly seems to be looking for, just have to wait their turn, I guess.

What a nightmare for families waiting to see if it's their loved one though. I've experienced a little of that, but it was only days and I was almost certain from the beginning that the police were going to find who they were looking for - I felt it in my bones, as they say. Even though it was such a shock at the beginning to discover police thought my uncle had murdered my aunt. Once I knew, I knew. For those who have been waiting years, and there's a glimmer of hope but dread as well, waiting everyday to hear the phone ring.....

In Bob's case, of course, there's someone out there dreading LE will find him, but that's the choice they made when they disappeared him and they just have to live with the consequences.

I have just seen a case of a man who went missing in Ohio in 2009 resolved. Poor man was found in his own basement and nobody had thought to search it. The house was closed up after he went missing, then recently sold. It was only when the new owner began renovations he was discovered. I searched, but he doesn't seem to be on WS. Heartbreaking. His life ended and the world just went on rolling, scarcely turned a hair.

Although it's always the scenario that can keep me awake at night, my sensible head knows that Bob is not in his house or garden. I don't think he's gone very far though. I think he is quite nearby, waiting patiently to come home.

 

[GrainneDhu]

That's sad for missing people who slip through the net of public awareness. I suppose hard-pressed local authorities have to continually make judgement calls about budget needs and priorities. Cases in the news are always going to be bumped to the top of the agenda, while unidentified human remains that no-one particularly seems to be looking for, just have to wait their turn, I guess.

What a nightmare for families waiting to see if it's their loved one though. I've experienced a little of that, but it was only days and I was almost certain from the beginning that the police were going to find who they were looking for - I felt it in my bones, as they say. Even though it was such a shock at the beginning to discover police thought my uncle had murdered my aunt. Once I knew, I knew. For those who have been waiting years, and there's a glimmer of hope but dread as well, waiting everyday to hear the phone ring.....

In Bob's case, of course, there's someone out there dreading LE will find him, but that's the choice they made when they disappeared him and they just have to live with the consequences.

I have just seen a case of a man who went missing in Ohio in 2009 resolved. Poor man was found in his own basement and nobody had thought to search it. The house was closed up after he went missing, then recently sold. It was only when the new owner began renovations he was discovered. I searched, but he doesn't seem to be on WS. Heartbreaking. His life ended and the world just went on rolling, scarcely turned a hair.

Although it's always the scenario that can keep me awake at night, my sensible head knows that Bob is not in his house or garden. I don't think he's gone very far though. I think he is quite nearby, waiting patiently to come home.

Sadly, cases like the man in Ohio that you mention above are no longer a rarity in this country. The housing crisis means that there were so many properties in foreclosure that were not worth nearly what the amount on the loan was for that a lot of people just walked out of their homes. Then the banks didn't have enough resources to properly inspect and prepare the properties for sale, so in many cases they knocked the price down to bargain levels and sold the properties "as is."

Like you, I doubt that Bob's remains are on the Carnation Dr property. I'd love for a HRD dog to check out Bob's house and also check out the Windflower property (which is, as I seem to recall, no longer owned by the Harrod Family Trust; I may be wrong). A search by a well trained and reputable HRD dog/handler team would allow the closest possible locations to be crossed off.

 

[zwiebel]

At least then there would be a definitive starting point, one place at least where Bob is not. I just find it so hard to believe this has not been done already. In truth, I don't really understand how Bob's missing person investigation has been carried out.

I understand the confusion at first, because Bob had gone and got married like an uppity teenager, without telling anyone. That cast suspicion on any subsequent actions of his, and that's what proved fatal, I think. Those vital, first few hours and days were lost. And the horrible person who disappeared, probably murdered Bob, won. They got to pass the burden around.

Since then though? Are LE just waiting for something to break? I hope so, although I'm not so sure it will without help. My one hope is that they haven't just cast him aside in favor of more urgent matters. That won't bring him home.

Your story about abandoned homes just fascinates me, GrainneDhu. Coming from England where all is so small and houses so precious, I just blink in amazement. Years ago, I read the first of many books I subsequently read on American ghosts towns; one day, if I can ever find someone to care for my unusual dog (the neighbour's horse has fallen in love with him and is stalking him and he's getting really upset. He also had the same problem with a duck once, which my friend youtubed, as it was so funny) I will do a road trip with Mr Z and see all these things.

 

[Cubby]

Some time ago I had mentioned I was following a group of UID's in the general vicinity from where Bob went missing. Included in those are the two skulls found in Dec of 2009 in the Angeles National Forest. We can rule both mentioned in the following thread as belonging to Mr. Harrod. One belongs to a female, the other an Asian male.

CA CA - Angeles National Forest - Two Skulls, Dec 2009 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[zwiebel]

I read that thread and it so chilling to think of an area where murderers choose to almost 'come together' to dump their dead. If you take California's huge area, then the fires, then the floods and the difficult terrain; well, it seems nothing short of a miracle that anybody is ever recovered. Thank heavens that there are so many people prepared to volunteer their time and efforts to recover the missing.

I had no idea how long some identification could take, either. I guess, if Bob is located after this length of time, he could be one of those who take a long time to identify, unless something is found with him that makes identification easier. That makes it even more important to keep his profile high, IMO, so that when he is finally found, he doesn't linger unclaimed somewhere. I just wish, wish that a member of his family had come out to lead the way, because it is always the families of the missing who really have the power to make people listen. To throw that opportunity away seems a total waste to me.

 

[cloudajo]

From NamUs' website:

Missing Persons and Unidentified Remains: The Nation’s Silent Mass Disaster
by Nancy Ritter

[snipped]

The facts are sobering. On any given day, there are as many as 100,000 active missing persons cases in the United States. Every year, tens of thousands of people vanish under suspicious circumstances. Viewed over a 20-year period, the number of missing persons can be estimated in the hundreds of thousands.

Due in part to sheer volume, missing persons and unidentified human remains cases are a tremendous challenge to State and local law enforcement agencies. The workload for these agencies is staggering: More than 40,000 sets of human remains that cannot be identified through conventional means are held in the evidence rooms of medical examiners throughout the country.1 But only 6,000 of these cases—15 percent—have been entered into the FBI’s National Crime Information Center (NCIC) database.

Efforts to solve missing persons cases are further hindered because many cities and counties continue to bury unidentified remains without attempting to collect DNA samples. And many labs that are willing to make the effort may not be equipped to perform DNA analysis of human remains, especially when the samples are old or degraded.

Compounding this problem is the fact that many of the Nation’s 17,000 law enforcement agencies don’t know about their State’s missing persons clearinghouse or the four Federal databases—NCIC, National Crime Information Center; CODIS(mp), Combined DNA Index System for Missing Persons; IAFIS, Integrated Automated Fingerprint Identification System; and ViCAP, Violent Criminal Apprehension Program—which can be invaluable tools in a missing person investigation. (See sidebar above, “The Federal Databases and What They Do.”) Even in jurisdictions that are familiar with the State and Federal databases, some officials say they have neither the time nor the resources to enter missing persons and unidentified human remains data into the systems.

[snipped]

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/homes/news

NamUs Behind the Scenes: How It Works, Why It Matters

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/homes/how_it_works_video

 

[zwiebel]

Thank you, cloudajo. I cannot tell you how shocked I am at those numbers. That's nearly half the population of Iceland - almost an entire nation of the missing. It's just so sad.
It would be a Herculean task though, to create a single, unified system from structures that exist now. It just hasn't been built that way, and I don't know if there is any huge country that has ever managed to do so.

 

[believe09]

MP Cases are expensive to boot. If you dont find them relatively quickly, the amount of resources that need to be spent are considerable. If you look at a Dept like PPD, undoubtedly cash strapped like all of the departments are, and if you start thinking about dogs, GPR, drones, pulling video tapes, searches of the canyons in the area...that is a lot of cash. And a lot of manpower.

Add into that equation people close to the victim who arent willing to talk or who give possibly actively misleading stories...well it is like a rabbit hole.

Which is why boards like these can be so helpful- we have thousands of people who can sleuth, contact media, get flyers created and posted. And we have access to people like Oriah and gitana1 who can help us not only understand the mechanics of the case, they can be some of the resources needed to help move it to a resolution.

Now we need to multiply it by give or take hundreds of thousands....peeps, get on your jurisdictions to get their cases entered into NAMUS. Offer to help. NAMUS has a civilian component to it-tell your local and state ME's that you will volunteer to do it.

Just imagine if we could get all of the John/Jane Does into the system and all of the MP. The system could work the way it was designed to....think of all of the people who would finally have some answers.

 

[believe09]

From the Websleuths Resources thread:

In the first case of its kind in Orange County, a decades-old murder mystery in Santa Ana has been solved with the help of DNA from the suspect's relatives.

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/orange_county&id=8873247

Isnt this something??

 

[believe09]

OXYGEN network on Cable TV has a series called Snapped. I have never watched it but someone brought this episode to my attention:

Sandra Jesse, Placentia CA, was tried and convicted of murder in the death of her third husband. She didnt want to pay for his cancer treatments any longer and she wanted access to his 401K benefits etc.

It was ultimately the testimony of her son that caused her conviction.

Here is a LINK to the OC DA press release regarding the case.


This trial included charges of murder for financial gain, and I want to explore for myself what the criteria and the punishment for that charge would be. I thought it was a DP aggravator, but I cant remember.

 

[believe09]

K-California Penal Code 190.2 PC covers special circumstances. According to the research I have done, and I am NOT an attorney, special circumstances combined with a first degree murder conviction make you automatically eligible for the DP. Which doesnt mean you have to be sentenced to death. It just makes you eligible.

Here is the part that really piqued my interest: (remember that the murder needs to be proven upon a reasonable doubt)

1.2. Intent to kill not always required
You can be convicted of murder even if you did not intend to kill the victim—for example, if you accidentally killed someone while committing a dangerous felony (the "felony-murder" rule ).17

With special circumstances murder / capital murder, intent to kill is required if the conviction is based on some kinds of special circumstances. But for other kinds of special circumstances, you can be convicted -- and sentenced to death or life in prison without parole -- even if you didn't specifically intend to kill someone!

 

[believe09]

So, even manslaughter combined with special circumstances can make you DP eligible or at least LWOP.

I will link the homicide defense attorney website where I found this information-the practice I found talks alot about their strengths in pleading down special circumstance murder cases.

LINK HERE

This section of the penal code also piqued my interest:

1.3. Aiding and abetting
You can also be convicted of special circumstances murder (capital murder) in California even if you didn't personally kill someone. The law makes it possible for people to receive the death penalty or life in prison under Penal Code 190.2 PC for aiding and abetting a murder , as long as one of the special circumstances applies.20

However, for a person to be convicted of special circumstances murder for acting as an accomplice to a murder, the jury in most cases DOES have to determine that s/he intended for someone to be killed.21

The only exception to this is if the murder took place in connection with the commission of certain felonies . In these cases, an aider or abetter can be convicted even without intent to kill, as long as s/he was played a major role in the felony and acted with a "reckless indifference" to human life.22

 

[believe09]

So, let's springboard off of this using Bob's case...

1.) What if he was removed from his house and then killed? Then kidnapping would be added to what ever body crime charge the perp/s eventually face...I would think anyway.

2.) If identifying items were removed from Bob after whatever crime was committed against him and they were removed for the purpose of preventing his identification when he is found, it is not a special circumstance eligible robbery. And I am talking about items like keys, wallet, glasses etc.

3.) If the crime against Bob was for the purpose of gaining access to money, well then I think it is clearly a special circumstance murder because according to the penal code even if you didnt intend to kill the person, if he/she dies while your intention is to gain assets of this victim, it is murder for financial gain.

After reading through all of this stuff, I have a much better understanding of why people in Bob's case might be reluctant to come forward. This is a true can of worms, horn of dilemma...whatever you want to call it.

I wonder-if it is clear to the DA that you didnt know about this event ahead of time, is that enough to earn you some favor if you choose to dump what you know now?

I bet it can be worked out. I truly believe that whoever you think did this, I mean whoever is your most likely perp, the person who whistleblows first is the one who will be in the best position on every level.

Poor Bob. No wonder PPD and Mrs Harrod seem to have such an insurmountable task ahead.

 

[zwiebel]

So, even manslaughter combined with special circumstances can make you DP eligible or at least LWOP.

I will link the homicide defense attorney website where I found this information-the practice I found talks alot about their strengths in pleading down special circumstance murder cases.

LINK HERE

This section of the penal code also piqued my interest:

I had no idea the DP could ever be applied to accomplices/accessories. I thought it was the case you had to be convicted of outright murder that you committed with your own hands. I can't imagine what it would be like to help a murderer, then live the rest of your life knowing that the only person you have to trust, that stands between you and a possible DP, is a murderer.

Even without that, I think it's a really bad idea to help a murderer anyway. Number one, murder isn't nice; number two, I'd always be afraid they'd murder me as well, if they thought I might talk. I can just imagine what my uncle would have done if he'd had an accomplice and the police closed in; even if it was a family member he appeared to really love, he'd have smiled sweetly, then blamed them. Maybe I'm just biased though, and there are a lot of trustworthy murderers out there.

Just don't let them near me though, I'd never trust a lying word the lying liars say!

 

[zwiebel]

OXYGEN network on Cable TV has a series called Snapped. I have never watched it but someone brought this episode to my attention:

Sandra Jesse, Placentia CA, was tried and convicted of murder in the death of her third husband. She didnt want to pay for his cancer treatments any longer and she wanted access to his 401K benefits etc.

It was ultimately the testimony of her son that caused her conviction.

Here is a LINK to the OC DA press release regarding the case.


This trial included charges of murder for financial gain, and I want to explore for myself what the criteria and the punishment for that charge would be. I thought it was a DP aggravator, but I cant remember.

I read it. What a stupid, cold, cruel thing to do. Perhaps they console themselves in jail, thinking of all the nice things the money bought them. All of which, I guess, they would now happily trade just for freedom.

 

[zwiebel]

MP Cases are expensive to boot. If you dont find them relatively quickly, the amount of resources that need to be spent are considerable. If you look at a Dept like PPD, undoubtedly cash strapped like all of the departments are, and if you start thinking about dogs, GPR, drones, pulling video tapes, searches of the canyons in the area...that is a lot of cash. And a lot of manpower.

Add into that equation people close to the victim who arent willing to talk or who give possibly actively misleading stories...well it is like a rabbit hole.

Which is why boards like these can be so helpful- we have thousands of people who can sleuth, contact media, get flyers created and posted. And we have access to people like Oriah and gitana1 who can help us not only understand the mechanics of the case, they can be some of the resources needed to help move it to a resolution.

Now we need to multiply it by give or take hundreds of thousands....peeps, get on your jurisdictions to get their cases entered into NAMUS. Offer to help. NAMUS has a civilian component to it-tell your local and state ME's that you will volunteer to do it.

Just imagine if we could get all of the John/Jane Does into the system and all of the MP. The system could work the way it was designed to....think of all of the people who would finally have some answers.

I am trying to explain something I don't know much about here, so bear with me.

I was talking about this nation of missing persons with Mr Z. He went geeky on me and usually it bores me to tears. This time he said something really interesting.
I said how hard it was, when there were all these different systems, and how expensive and impossible it would be now for every local LE have someone to visit them, set up identical systems, then train someone to use them. How families of many missing people have to rely on people sitting down and finding the time to search different databases for their loved one.

Mr Z agreed, then told me his solution. You just set up a system that can read everyone else's missing person database. So it doesn't matter who you want to find, or the criteria you set (you could choose; date missing, age, hair colour, location). It would just read them all and then come up with the results in a nice, neat, chart. You could also read info on any new missing persons too, if the info is out there somewhere.

It's not as simple as it sounds and needs highly specialized skills. There's only a few people in the US who can do it. Anyway, Mr Z offered to build one for us, if we like. No idea about the nitty gritty details of it, but does anyone think that might be a good idea?

 

[Seajay]

From the Websleuths Resources thread:



Isnt this something??

Familial DNA was how the Grim Sleeper was caught in Inglewood (a suburb of Los Angeles) a few years ago. The son was arrested for something and his DNA was put into the database.

It was later kicked out as similar but not exactly like the DNA of the Grim Sleeper, so LE realized it had to be a relative. They tested other members of the family and it turned out it was the father who had committed all the Grim Sleeper crimes. Amazing.

 

[mikkismom]

I'm getting bogged down here - can anyone direct me to a post of events as they happened, roughly?

Actually, Zwiebel, IFAIK, there is no 'set' time of events. The times are different depending on which source you use. :banghead:

As far as a central database, there is www.namus.gov As with any database, it is only as good as the information put in it. If the info is not entered or not entered correctly, it is useless.

jmo