CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #11

[zwiebel]

Actually, Zwiebel, IFAIK, there is no 'set' time of events. The times are different depending on which source you use. :banghead:

As far as a central database, there is www.namus.gov As with any database, it is only as good as the information put in it. If the info is not entered or not entered correctly, it is useless.

jmo

Thanks for reminding me, mikkismom. I must have completely lost my senses there for a while, searching for a set timeline in this case!

 

[believe09]

I would think that the only real way to deal with a pressure cooker situation like Bob's case would be to pretend it didnt happen. To decide that he walked away or to shove it into a little room inside of your head. And to move on with the things that you enjoy.

I have had the privilege of knowing quite a few families of the missing. I have known quite a few families who have seen a complete miscarriage of justice when it comes to a loved one. I dont recall a single one who shoves it aside and moves along with their lives. It always consumes a piece of their day-the desire to make people remember and care is primary. In fact, for those lucky families that get a resolution of some kind, regardless of that resolution, they are shell shocked when the fight is finally over.

I am struggling to see this in Bob's case-at least in anyone other than Fontelle and CAExile.

 

[mikkismom]

When I was in computer programming many years ago, we learned the concept of "Garbage In, Garbage Out" (GIGO). With computer data, the results are only as good as the data entered. The difficult thing with Bob's case is GIGO. Without accurate information, how can we come to an accurate conclusion? KWIM?

jmo

 

[believe09]

Wow-Hi everyone...thank you for coming in and getting caught up or sharing your thoughts. :blowkiss:

 

[zwiebel]

When I was in computer programming many years ago, we learned the concept of "Garbage In, Garbage Out" (GIGO). With computer data, the results are only as good as the data entered. The difficult thing with Bob's case is GIGO. Without accurate information, how can we come to an accurate conclusion? KWIM?

jmo

You'd be able to have one of those conversations with Mr Z that go straight over my head!

I see that getting people to put the info into Namus is one of the biggest problems, and with Bob's case he has been registered. For others, if the details are written down on a sheet of paper in someone's office, Mr Z's system couldn't help. I was thinking more along the lines of this;

Human remains of a 20 year old man with a ship tattoo are found, say, in North Carolina. They don't seem to match anyone on the N. Carolina missing persons' website, or Namus, but things are found with the remains to suggest he may have links with California, New Orleans, New York and Alaska. Say it isn't known if those places enter all their missing persons on Namus. It would be time-consuming to visit the individual missing persons websites of all those places, and type in the details again and again, to see if a 20 year old with a tattoo came up.

Mr Z's system would mean that you only needed to put in the details once. Then it would search and read all the websites itself, (no matter how their info was arranged) and sort and chart the results for you. You would also be able to specify by results; eg, you only wanted to find blonde- haired men with tattoos, or those between 15 and 30.

Sorry, know this isn't a very technical explanation - it's just not my field!

 

[believe09]

Familial DNA was how the Grim Sleeper was caught in Inglewood (a suburb of Los Angeles) a few years ago. The son was arrested for something and his DNA was put into the database.

It was later kicked out as similar but not exactly like the DNA of the Grim Sleeper, so LE realized it had to be a relative. They tested other members of the family and it turned out it was the father who had committed all the Grim Sleeper crimes. Amazing.

Yes it was amazing how the Grim Sleeper was caught. Imagine the astonishment of the detectives when those results started piling up.

With Bob's case, there is primary DNA on file. As far as I am aware, there is no other DNA from the family that has been entered into CODIS. All of the skeletal remains that pop up all over San Bernadino county have to have their DNA extracted, and that process can take a while because of the backlog at UNTCHI. Unless, of course, CA chooses to process it themselves. Because they have their own DNA database, like some other states. I am pretty certain the databases link up with CODIS....in any case, sample to sample comparison can be done fairly easily if you have samples that you can compare...like a toothbrush from Bob and a molar from a John Doe.

There are other means of identification-dental records are pretty rock solid and even radiographs/xrays if DNA or dentals arent available.

I was helping out a family once-we were trying to compare the Missing Person to some (unfortunately) disarticulated remains. We had no dentals and this was one of the families who was incredibly reluctant to give DNA. The Missing Person had been in a car accident several years before and she had a head CT and an XRAY of her jaw at a hospital. The ME was able to use those two items to rule out a match to the Jane Doe.

I have had situations where creative and hardworking LE contact Quantico to have them compare photographs of (for example) a missing child to a set of remains. They do layovers.


Oh and one more option/story-I had a group contact me once to test some facial recognition software they were working on. They wanted to take the information from a John Doe and run the image through the software and compare it to DL's on file for all of the states that were online.

My point is that there is always a way to do identification outside of NAMUS-but it would be WAY easier if everyone used NAMUS and FRS were available in all cases.

 

[SuziQ]

The best database possible won't help much when so many missing person and UID cases fall through the cracks. Many missing are merely dismissed as runaway or voluntary missing. In some cases LE refuses to even take a report. So you have a case that's been closed before it was even opened. It will never be entered in a database. The UID's found have no one on file to be matched with. Meanwhile, if it's a homicide, the killers go free....

 

[zwiebel]

That's terrible. Just terrible. Bad enough to have a missing loved one, but to have them ignored.....that would drive me insane. I honestly would go completely mad until someone started looking. And I can't even imagine what might happen if someone tried that with GrainneDhu.

 

[believe09]

The best database possible won't help much when so many missing person and UID cases fall through the cracks. Many missing are merely dismissed as runaway or voluntary missing. In some cases LE refuses to even take a report. So you have a case that's been closed before it was even opened. It will never be entered in a database. The UID's found have no one on file to be matched with. Meanwhile, if it's a homicide, the killers go free....

This is against the law and has been for years, although I get the point. If someone goes missing, LE has to take the report and investigate. No waiting time.

Families of the missing, dont accept a no. You have a right-they have to take the report. PPD did a well being check first-makes sense given Bob's advanced age. They probably believed he was laying somewhere inside of the house with a broken hip.

Then, family apparently punted the MP report to Fontelle who was 1800 miles away. Give or take.

 

[zwiebel]

Yes it was amazing how the Grim Sleeper was caught. Imagine the astonishment of the detectives when those results started piling up.

With Bob's case, there is primary DNA on file. As far as I am aware, there is no other DNA from the family that has been entered into CODIS. All of the skeletal remains that pop up all over San Bernadino county have to have their DNA extracted, and that process can take a while because of the backlog at UNTCHI. Unless, of course, CA chooses to process it themselves. Because they have their own DNA database, like some other states. I am pretty certain the databases link up with CODIS....in any case, sample to sample comparison can be done fairly easily if you have samples that you can compare...like a toothbrush from Bob and a molar from a John Doe.

There are other means of identification-dental records are pretty rock solid and even radiographs/xrays if DNA or dentals arent available.

I was helping out a family once-we were trying to compare the Missing Person to some (unfortunately) disarticulated remains. We had no dentals and this was one of the families who was incredibly reluctant to give DNA. The Missing Person had been in a car accident several years before and she had a head CT and an XRAY of her jaw at a hospital. The ME was able to use those two items to rule out a match to the Jane Doe.

I have had situations where creative and hardworking LE contact Quantico to have them compare photographs of (for example) a missing child to a set of remains. They do layovers.


Oh and one more option/story-I had a group contact me once to test some facial recognition software they were working on. They wanted to take the information from a John Doe and run the image through the software and compare it to DL's on file for all of the states that were online.

My point is that there is always a way to do identification outside of NAMUS-but it would be WAY easier if everyone used NAMUS and FRS were available in all cases.

What's a layover? I have googled and I'm getting airports and truck stops?

ETA: tried Quantico and layover, but that is all flights and airports too.
ETA tried layover diagrams and that's just hurt my head. Will wait for believe09 to come back and tell me.

 

[zwiebel]

This is against the law and has been for years, although I get the point. If someone goes missing, LE has to take the report and investigate. No waiting time.

Families of the missing, dont accept a no. You have a right-they have to take the report. PPD did a well being check first-makes sense given Bob's advanced age. They probably believed he was laying somewhere inside of the house with a broken hip.

Then, family apparently punted the MP report to Fontelle who was 1800 miles away. Give or take.

And why did AH wait for LE to accompany him when he searched the house? I don't understand that. Why would you wait if you thought your grandpa was lying hurt in the garage or something?

 

[SuziQ]

This is against the law and has been for years, although I get the point. If someone goes missing, LE has to take the report and investigate. No waiting time.

Families of the missing, dont accept a no. You have a right-they have to take the report. PPD did a well being check first-makes sense given Bob's advanced age. They probably believed he was laying somewhere inside of the house with a broken hip.

Then, family apparently punted the MP report to Fontelle who was 1800 miles away. Give or take.

Sorry, I should have clarified that I was speaking about missing person cases in general in relation to databases. It may be illegal to not take a report, but it still happens. I don't want to paint LE with a wide brush. In some cases they talk people out of reporting a missing person at all. That there skirts the law. Some people have to be real insistent to get LE to take a report. And if a report is taken, there is no guarantee it will be entered into a computer at a local level.

ETA: I want to add that I see no fault with LE in this case.

 

[zwiebel]

Sorry, I should have clarified that I was speaking about missing person cases in general in relation to databases. It may be illegal to not take a report, but it still happens. I don't want to paint LE with a wide brush. In some cases they talk people out of reporting a missing person at all. That there skirts the law. Some people have to be real insistent to get LE to take a report. And if a report is taken, there is no guarantee it will be entered into a computer at a local level.

ETA: I want to add that I see no fault with LE in this case.

People with a chequered history, the 'crazy', the dispossessed; they're the ones others may be reluctant or embarrassed to report missing. The least sign of discouragement, they may give up. And if a loved one has gone missing, it must be so hard to be strong and insistent. It really is the duty of all LE's to make sure they follow the law, and know what it is in regards to mps. IMO

 

[zwiebel]

What's a layover? I have googled and I'm getting airports and truck stops?

ETA: tried Quantico and layover, but that is all flights and airports too.
ETA tried layover diagrams and that's just hurt my head. Will wait for believe09 to come back and tell me.

I couldn't wait. Too impatient. Something made me google Quantico, Virginia. It's the FBI. Now I think the place I heard that was in the movie, Silence of the Lambs. Just layover to go now.

 

[zwiebel]

I got it, finally. Googling layover got me results for what we term a stopover, in England. But I think in this sense, together with Quantico being FBI, it means what I call an overlay. Taking a series of photos of remains, then overlaying them with photos of a person taken when they were alive, to see if they match. Most useful with dentals? Hope I'm somewhere near because believe09 seemsto have left the building....

 

[Cubby]

Are we sure there is no FRS sample on file for Mr. Harrod? Maybe LE can approach Mr. Harrod's sister and her children, if she has any children. There should always be an FRS sample on file for the missing. I mean, it's free aside from shipping. There is no reason for no FRS to be on file three plus years later for this case.

 

[believe09]

You got it zwiebel, and thank you for the correction and the humor.

The FBI has experts that are considered the gold standard for imaging comparisons. For example, one of the technicians might take a photo of a missing person and use particular reference points to compare it to another photo of a John/Jane Doe. In one of the cases I participated in, the comparison was being done between a missing child and, unfortunately, a screen grab from a website that contained illegal images.

They digitally lay the images over one another and the facial features line up in a certain way, or they dont.

 

[believe09]

Are we sure there is no FRS sample on file for Mr. Harrod? Maybe LE can approach Mr. Harrod's sister and her children, if she has any children. There should always be an FRS sample on file for the missing. I mean, it's free aside from shipping. There is no reason for no FRS to be on file three plus years later for this case.

I agree. It is a cheek swab. *shrug*

 

[Seajay]

I got it, finally. Googling layover got me results for what we term a stopover, in England. But I think in this sense, together with Quantico being FBI, it means what I call an overlay. Taking a series of photos of remains, then overlaying them with photos of a person taken when they were alive, to see if they match. Most useful with dentals? Hope I'm somewhere near because believe09 seemsto have left the building....

Bingo! You are correct. It's when you take a picture and put it to a film that you can see through, and lay it over a photo of a known person to see if the bone structure and other points on the face and nose match up.

 

[Seajay]

The only problem is see with these data bases is that sometimes input mistakes are made. I recall a case where the wrong missing date was put into the computer off a missing persons report. A mother tried to 3 or 4 years to get her daughter identified after she went missing. Turned out they had a Jane Doe all this time that turned out to be her daughter, only the information never got kicked out of the computer system because of the wrong date of when she was reported missing.