CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #11

[zwiebel]

Regarding traffic conditions, neighbour PE was confident that Placentia itself would have been very quiet, at 3pm.

Earlier though, if we were to start from the 10am phone call. I imagine Bob's community would have a very short 'rush hour', long over by 10, with most of the surrounding streets the same, and not too much different at lunchtime - maybe 1, noon?

I'm a bit interested in likely conditions on the Riverside freeway 91, going out towards Chino Hills State Park, and on. Would traffic lessen there then too, between 10 and noon, or are those stories I've heard about US freeways true? If so, what about La Palma Ave by the Santa Ana river, cutting onto the highway only once you are nearly out of the suburbs?

I put myself in the only similar situation I can, when I've had loads of old doors and old carpets tied to the top of the car, worried sick I might be an inch over regulations, and the dog's barking his head off at a lady in a red coat and bobble hat he's mistaken for a giant squirrell. I'd love to take the quickest freeway route and get my waste recycling over and done with, but feel spectacularly self-conscious so take the winding, slower route through the suburbs for as long as possible.

Here's a map link, if anyone wants to chip in:

http://www.mapquest.com/maps?city=Placentia&state=CA

 

[zwiebel]

O/T but, just in case some of you were as moved by this case as I was, and as Cubby rushed off after giving us half a clue, here's a link to Du Page Johnnie Doe, poor little mite.

'Then the girl shared an even darker secret. She said her little brother was missing and that her grandmother told her the same man had killed him.'

http://naperville.patch.com/articles/child-buried-as-johnny-doe-in-wheaton-identified

 

[GrainneDhu]

When I think back about my aunt, we were spared that long wait. But I cringe at our trust. Stupidity. After she 'ran off' he sold the house, everything in it, even her clothes.
Her clothes? She didn't take even her clothes? And we didn't think to question that?
And then he lived in hotels, had a nice time, a girlfriend. She loved him to death and trusted him to death too. But after he came out of jail, he said some things about her.....I think she came closer to death in that time with my uncle than she will ever know.
Everyone liked him though. He was lovely. Most murderers are far from having murderer stamped on their forehead. Many people loved him even after. If you were in distress you would ask him for help on the street. He was very kind.
I hated him after though. Every single charming, friendly word he said sounded like poison to me. I just kept thinking 'you might murder me too'. There was no reason for him to murder me, I was just a sensitive child. But I didn't care what anyone said, I thought it was more sensible not to trust a murderer, than to trust one. And I still do.

I wouldn't have questioned him selling her clothes either, for whatever it is worth. I would have assumed that she'd taken a suitcase full and left the rest.

Constant suspicion is no better than unthinking trust. Suspicion makes innocent actions seem ominous; we see a lot of that on WS, where the families of the victims sometimes get bashed before all the facts are in.

As for murderers, I think one has to look at the context before judging them. It sounds to me like your uncle spent quite a long time setting everyone up to seeing your aunt as a crazy, unpredictable woman who just might run off without a word to anyone. That is very cold and calculating and I think you're right, there is no way to trust or rely on such a person.

Other murders and murderers vary. Statistically, most murderers only murder once.

Whoever murdered Bob seems like one of the cold, calculating sorts to me. I'd be afraid to sleep in the same house with that person because it seems very clear that whoever did it was motivated by greed and convenience. I'd be afraid that if I ever became inconvenient to that person, I'd become one of those people who supposedly ran off as well.

 

[zwiebel]

BBM

I wouldn't have questioned him selling her clothes either, for whatever it is worth. I would have assumed that she'd taken a suitcase full and left the rest.

Constant suspicion is no better than unthinking trust. Suspicion makes innocent actions seem ominous; we see a lot of that on WS, where the families of the victims sometimes get bashed before all the facts are in.

As for murderers, I think one has to look at the context before judging them. It sounds to me like your uncle spent quite a long time setting everyone up to seeing your aunt as a crazy, unpredictable woman who just might run off without a word to anyone. That is very cold and calculating and I think you're right, there is no way to trust or rely on such a person.

Other murders and murderers vary. Statistically, most murderers only murder once.

Whoever murdered Bob seems like one of the cold, calculating sorts to me. I'd be afraid to sleep in the same house with that person because it seems very clear that whoever did it was motivated by greed and convenience. I'd be afraid that if I ever became inconvenient to that person, I'd become one of those people who supposedly ran off as well.

Do you think that could be because most murderers are caught before they can murder again? I don't know any stats, but I would really hope most murderers are caught, and caught quite early? Please don't tell me this isn't so...

 

[GrainneDhu]

BBM


Do you think that could be because most murderers are caught before they can murder again? I don't know any stats, but I would really hope most murderers are caught, and caught quite early? Please don't tell me this isn't so...

Most murderers are caught after one single murder.

The interesting thing is that most murderers serve a term in prison and are eventually freed again. Their recidivism rate is lower than average, which suggests that either being imprisoned does teach them not to do it or that the conditions that led to the first murder are not replicated again. Or some combination of the two.

 

[zwiebel]

That's very interesting. The last thing I would have dreamt of that the prison-rehabilitation effect would work with murderers! Reassuring, too.
ETA: You don't happen to know if there is an average length of time served for murder in the US, do you?

 

[zwiebel]

I have another question for anyone who can answer it, please. On 27th July, 2009, would school children in California have been on their summer break?

I'm asking because I am trying to get a picture of how busy, or not, camping, hiking and wildlife areas might have been.

 

[GrainneDhu]

That's very interesting. The last thing I would have dreamt of that the prison-rehabilitation effect would work with murderers! Reassuring, too.
ETA: You don't happen to know if there is an average length of time served for murder in the US, do you?

Consider that the majority of murders are not premeditated but committed in the heat of the moment. Learning better self control or breaking connections with the environment that led to the first murder is probably effective for many. Plus there's the fact that crime in general is a young man's game; as people get older they tend to commit fewer crimes of any sort. So just spending time in prison puts years on the perp and that in general will lower the risk of re-offending.

I don't know the average length of time served for murder.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I have another question for anyone who can answer it, please. On 27th July, 2009, would school children in California have been on their summer break?

I'm asking because I am trying to get a picture of how busy, or not, camping, hiking and wildlife areas might have been.

Yes. There would be some number in summer school and there are some private schools that run throughout the summer but the vast majority of children are out of school in July.

Camping, hiking and all public areas are much more busy in the summer than they are at any other time of year. The three months between Memorial Day (the last Monday of May) and Labor Day (the first Monday of September) are when most people take their vacations because that is when the children are out of school. Even if childless, many vacation destinations are only open or only at their best during the summer months.

 

[zwiebel]

Changing the subject just for a minute - I have been watching a programme about the British Army and their search dogs - fantastic. The dog was asked to find something buried on a farmer's land. The soldiers let him loose and he found it in minutes, in a huge area. And even the puppy in training found what he was supposed to, although he then vanished like a streak of lightening under a pallet, which I don't think was in the plan.
The soldier said "Technology will never replace what a dog can do."

Perhaps it will be dogs that help bring Bob home. That will please the dog-lovers amongst us.

 

[zwiebel]

Just to add, I know what a dog indicating means now. No barking, it just looked intently at the object, then straight at the trainer across the field, as if to say, 'I've found it, what are you waiting for?' Unmistakeable.

 

[zwiebel]

This video will give you a great idea of the mountain areas and conditions by Lake Arrowhead. But be warned; hold onto your hats guys, it is a very bumpy ride because these guys are crazy!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV70zpQWJ6Q

I will try and find some of lower level areas as well.

 

[zwiebel]

Is Chino Hills State Park part of Yorba Linda? I cannot work out exactly where Yorba Linda ends.
ETA Does anyone know if it has self-registration entry? And was it open on 27th July 2009?

And if you don't much care for regs, how hard would it be to get in if it was officially closed?

 

[zwiebel]

BBM

Here's another thought. If Bob's daughters wanted to know their mothers wishes, why didn't they just pick up a copy of her will which had been filed at the courthouse since May of 2008? Or was it April of 2008?

30-2008-00068771-PR-OP-LJC
HARROD-SAFEKEEPING WILL
04/01/2008 PROBATE OTHER PROBATE MATTER



Participants Results 1 - 1 of 1000000000000
Name Type Start Date End Date Current Attorney
GEORGIA M HARROD DECEDENT 05/14/2008


https://ocapps.occourts.org/ProbPubv...c_dtl#top_page

Just bumping this because I had a thought. Are we absolutely sure they didn't?

 

[Cubby]

Here's some info on CH state park, including the hours.

http://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=648

 

[Cubby]

BBM


Just bumping this because I had a thought. Are we absolutely sure they didn't?

Bob Harrod and his three daughters had an argument over finances the Sunday before he vanished.

His daughter, Roberta, acknowledged the exchange, saying her father lost his temper. She said he had failed to provide copies of their mother's will, which he was obligated to do because of the financial mechanisms set up by the estate.

"It wasn't a heated meeting," she said in a phone interview. "Dad got heated. He's very selfish, very conditional. The day before he went missing in the afternoon, he was going to provide us copies of the will, and we went over to get the copies. He didn't have them."

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...+Robert+Merle+Harrod&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

I guess I just wondered why she would insist and insist dad do something for her which she could have simply gone to the court house and done herself.

 

[zwiebel]

Here's some info on CH state park, including the hours.

http://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=648

That's useful regarding the map, but I still can't find out if it's part of Yorba Linda. Reason I'm asking is I found a local OHV group and they had a discussion, and came to a firm conclusion that there just aren't any OHV trails in YL, legal or not.

Just trying to find out if that means there are no chances to do a little OHVing in the park.

 

[Cubby]

What is OHV?

 

[zwiebel]

Bob Harrod and his three daughters had an argument over finances the Sunday before he vanished.

His daughter, Roberta, acknowledged the exchange, saying her father lost his temper. She said he had failed to provide copies of their mother's will, which he was obligated to do because of the financial mechanisms set up by the estate.

"It wasn't a heated meeting," she said in a phone interview. "Dad got heated. He's very selfish, very conditional. The day before he went missing in the afternoon, he was going to provide us copies of the will, and we went over to get the copies. He didn't have them."

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...+Robert+Merle+Harrod&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

I guess I just wondered why she would insist and insist dad do something for her which she could have simply gone to the court house and done herself.

Absolutely. But I was just thinking people can do funny things over wills. Even sisters. Maybe someone already had a copy and didn't say? Is there any way of finding out? I know there is much more access to that kind of info in the US than here.
ETA: thinking about it, It would certainly demonstrate, at the least, an interest in Bob's financial affairs too, if anyone filed for a copy of the will before he vanished. There was a joint arrangement, after all.

 

[zwiebel]

What is OHV?

Lol. It's a strange US term for an off-road vehicle. An off-highway vehicle. It took me quite a while to work it out!