CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #11

[zwiebel]

Guess we both noticed that at the same time, Cubby!

 

[Cubby]

I notice that the assumed date of death will be at the end of the five-year period, unless 'evidence is produced to prove death occurred earlier'. Does that mean that after five years, if Bob is delared dead say, 3 months after the five years is up, FH will be able to bring a wrongful death suit beause Bob has officially only been dead 3 months?
Could it also mean that, in order for FH to be 'timed out', Bob's daughters might have to try and prove he died the day he disappeared from the house?

My understanding is the death certificate would be issued for the end of the 5 year period. The date of death would not be the day he disappeared, but the date the court declares him deceased.

Even with MP's and UID's that are matched up, the date of death on the death certificate is always the date the body was located. So, if a person was missing 10 years the date of death is the date the body was found, not the date the person went missing.

hth

 

[tlcya]

I had forgotten about that mid-morning call, but I do think he may have walked out of his house with someone he knew.

I understand Mr Bob was feisty with words but from videos, he seemed to move about as would be expected of a person his age. He would not have been a match for anyone "strong-arming"... especially in a suprise attack.

"Come along for a drive with me pops, there is something I want you to see." ..... " OK old man, get out of the car"..... Ka-pow!

Forgive my lack of knowledge but the sliipers by the bed, the significance eludes me. Is it known that Bob left the house without footwear? I ask bexaue by the side of tbe bed is where both my grandfather and later, my fathe, kept their slippers. The easier to sit up in bed, rotate legs to dangle of side, and slip right into. Have I missed some key element?

As to eyeglasses, if they were his main specs, them being left on the bedside is hinky to me, if the were simply reading glasses, with extra magnification, then he may have kept them there for reading in bed.

As to your theory above, I agree. If a familly member is there, ostensibly doing small handyman tasks and preparing for the arrival of Fontelle, a simple matter to convince Bob to accompany him willingly on some BS errand.

The bed unmade could indicate Bob intended to be back from their "errand" before the cleaning lady arrived.

Bob is taken to some remote location and dispatched, boby well hidden.

 

[zwiebel]

Forgive my lack of knowledge but the sliipers by the bed, the significance eludes me. Is it known that Bob left the house without footwear? I ask bexaue by the side of tbe bed is where both my grandfather and later, my fathe, kept their slippers. The easier to sit up in bed, rotate legs to dangle of side, and slip right into. Have I missed some key element?

As to eyeglasses, if they were his main specs, them being left on the bedside is hinky to me, if the were simply reading glasses, with extra magnification, then he may have kept them there for reading in bed.

As to your theory above, I agree. If a familly member is there, ostensibly doing small handyman tasks and preparing for the arrival of Fontelle, a simple matter to convince Bob to accompany him willingly on some BS errand.

The bed unmade could indicate Bob intended to be back from their "errand" before the cleaning lady arrived.

Bob is taken to some remote location and dispatched, boby well hidden.

There's a series of photos under an OC Register Article (I think) linked earlier. It shows Bob's slippers neatly by the bed and glasses on the kitchen or dining table. Seemed hinky (maybe staged?) to me as it was reported Bob had no plans to go out. He seemed to me to be the type of person who would wear his slippers in the house, especially as it seemed mostly carpeted. If he went out, I thought the slippers should have been scattered downstairs (abduction); or by the front door (went willingly, changed into outdoor shoes).

There are questions ( as usual) as to the number of pairs of glasses Bob owned (he needed them for everyday tasks, not just reading). But if he did go out willingly, wearing his main specs, I question why the spares were sitting on the kitchen table as though he had just taken them off, rather than being stored in a drawer.

 

[zwiebel]

Forgive my lack of knowledge but the sliipers by the bed, the significance eludes me. Is it known that Bob left the house without footwear? I ask bexaue by the side of tbe bed is where both my grandfather and later, my fathe, kept their slippers. The easier to sit up in bed, rotate legs to dangle of side, and slip right into. Have I missed some key element?

As to eyeglasses, if they were his main specs, them being left on the bedside is hinky to me, if the were simply reading glasses, with extra magnification, then he may have kept them there for reading in bed.

As to your theory above, I agree. If a familly member is there, ostensibly doing small handyman tasks and preparing for the arrival of Fontelle, a simple matter to convince Bob to accompany him willingly on some BS errand.

The bed unmade could indicate Bob intended to be back from their "errand" before the cleaning lady arrived.

Bob is taken to some remote location and dispatched, boby well hidden.

Here's the link to the pics referenced in my answer above, tlcox.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/-214111--.html?pic=1

 

[Cubby]

The housekeeper could have placed the slippers back by Bob's bed when cleaning the home.

 

[tlcya]

Thanks. All of these little questions would no doubt have answers were his family interested in finding him or what happened. Were they assisting LE and the public we would know more about Bob' s habits, normal practices, etc.

Unfortunately I am convinced at least one of them knows and the rest could care les, so long as the interloper can't access "their" inheritance.

Sigh. So sorry Bob.

 

[Cubby]

I'm especially interested in the cleaning lady's comments and looking forward to learning more of what she has to share when the disappeared episode airs. She was the one to see how the home was left prior to the grandson and JuM's arrival.

 

[believe09]

I had forgotten about that mid-morning call, but I do think he may have walked out of his house with someone he knew.

I understand Mr Bob was feisty with words but from videos, he seemed to move about as would be expected of a person his age. He would not have been a match for anyone "strong-arming"... especially in a suprise attack.

"Come along for a drive with me pops, there is something I want you to see." ..... " OK old man, get out of the car"..... Ka-pow!

I would definitely be with you if it werent for the bathroom repairs. Hmmmm. Wonder what OC Sheriff's CSI thought of that bathroom?

 

[believe09]

This morning a football, the dog and Mr Zwiebel all went over the side of a cliff, in that order. All of them deliberately, to save the preceding one, except the football which was deliberately pushed by a cold, wet nose. I stayed above, of course, because some of us are sane and also want to point emergency rescue in the right direction, if needed.

Looking at them down there though, I realized they had almost completely disappeared. It's only a small cliff, and the vegetation here is 'woody' and green with few brambles or thorns. It was easy to see how, if they were incapacitated, it might be a very long time before they were found, and then it would more likely be a fisherman on the river than somebody descending from the path above.

It's made me a little disheartened for Bob in truth. I was looking at the Californian vegetation and there's just everything there - desert with thorny shrubs, forests and mountains. If Bob was just thrown from a mountain road, it'll be so unlikely he'll be found by an organized search unless there's a tip-off. It's going to be some intrepid hiker or something, and that could take years. Everything is on such a grand scale in the US, it's daunting. I am full of admiration for your search teams, I really am. It is nothing short of miraculous they find as many missing people as they do.

Somebody cheer me up and tell me some reasons why Bob can be found.

Dont despair-K9's are an amazing resource and there are many people committed to Bob's recovery. I have a philosophy about the missing, fwiw. It may sound trite but they always seem to surface at the right time. I dont doubt this will happen with Bob.

 

[believe09]

There's a series of photos under an OC Register Article (I think) linked earlier. It shows Bob's slippers neatly by the bed and glasses on the kitchen or dining table. Seemed hinky (maybe staged?) to me as it was reported Bob had no plans to go out. He seemed to me to be the type of person who would wear his slippers in the house, especially as it seemed mostly carpeted. If he went out, I thought the slippers should have been scattered downstairs (abduction); or by the front door (went willingly, changed into outdoor shoes).

There are questions ( as usual) as to the number of pairs of glasses Bob owned (he needed them for everyday tasks, not just reading). But if he did go out willingly, wearing his main specs, I question why the spares were sitting on the kitchen table as though he had just taken them off, rather than being stored in a drawer.

Even if the slippers and the glasses were staged for the photo, just the fact that the glasses were there and that there is not a firm description of what the man was wearing...in spite of his SIL observing him for possibly hours...well come on. :banghead:

 

[Cubby]

Even if the slippers and the glasses were staged for the photo, just the fact that the glasses were there and that there is not a firm description of what the man was wearing...in spite of his SIL observing him for possibly hours...well come on. :banghead:

Using this post as a spring board. Add to the above daughter JuM took the sheets off Bob's bed.... per her own words on her community forum, she took the sheets off her missing fathers bed. Who does that when that could have contained evidence?

Your dad is missing and you change the sheets on his bed? Come on. There isn't too many reasons one would do that on the same day they post LE suspects foul play to their community forum. :furious:

 

[zwiebel]

Dont despair-K9's are an amazing resource and there are many people committed to Bob's recovery. I have a philosophy about the missing, fwiw. It may sound trite but they always seem to surface at the right time. I dont doubt this will happen with Bob.

Yes, and Cubby mentioned above about Bianca Jones, where no body has been found yet dogs have proved she is deceased. I can't work that out, actually and don't know the case. Must look it up.

 

[Cubby]

I don't want to get too OT. Bianca Jones, 2, went missing when her dad claimed he was carjacked. The car was found almost immediately but the child wasn't found with the car. Cadaver scent was found in the car on the car seat, the blanket which covered her and in the bedroom where Bianca slept. There was little blood evidence and the prosecutors relied heavily on cadaver scent.

Prosecutors believe she was placed in an incinerator and that her remains are not recoverable.

Her father was found guilty of 1st degree murder even though Bianca's body has never been found.

GUILTY MI - Bianca Lilly Jones, 2, Detroit, 2 Dec 2011 - D'Andre Lane **GUILTY** - #4 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[Cubby]

Here is a second degree no body murder conviction out of Orange County, CA in which the victims remains and a murder weapon have never been recovered.

Authorities presented several drops of blood found in Theriault's garage as the key pieces of evidence during Valot's trial.

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/t/theriault_peter.html

Drops of blood aren't loads and loads of physical evidence. Which is why I am so interested in whether or not a cadaver scent exists in Mr. Harrod's home and what might be found by way of doors other than the front door.

When I see cases such as Mr. Theriault's and Bianca's it gives me great hope the person(s) responsible for Mr. Harrod's disappearance will be held responsible too!

 

[zwiebel]

I don't want to get too OT. Bianca Jones, 2, went missing when her dad claimed he was carjacked. The car was found almost immediately but the child wasn't found with the car. Cadaver scent was found in the car on the car seat, the blanket which covered her and in the bedroom where Bianca slept. There was little blood evidence and the prosecutors relied heavily on cadaver scent.

Prosecutors believe she was placed in an incinerator and that her remains are not recoverable.

Her father was found guilty of 1st degree murder even though Bianca's body has never been found.

GUILTY MI - Bianca Lilly Jones, 2, Detroit, 2 Dec 2011 - D'Andre Lane **GUILTY** - #4 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Had just been looking. I thought she was a young woman, for some reason.
A two year old who wet her pants and died for it.
I find those cases really, really difficult.

 

[zwiebel]

So both these people were convicted on circumstantial evidence. That's what it's termed in an english court anyway, I think. I don't know any of the details but first impressions suggest the available evidence was not overwhelming - gives me hope for Bob's case.

 

[zwiebel]

I've compiled a list (in my head) of circumstantial evidence that might apply in this case. I bet there are at least......4? people on this thread who already have a much better one!

 

[zwiebel]

Note to self: it's always worth reading the tags.

 

[zwiebel]

So what do people think of the chances of circumstantial evidence being strong enough in this case?

'Both direct and circumstantial evidence are acceptable types of evidence.......neither is more reliable than the other......'

'However, a finding of guilt as to any crime may not be based on circumstantial evidence unless the proved circumstances are not only (1) consistent with the theory that the defendant is guilty of the crime, but (2) cannot be reconciled with any other rational conclusion.'

http://www.uchastings.edu/faculty-a...acobson/Direct-and-Circumstantial-11-15-1.ppt