CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #11

[zwiebel]

I want to switch gears for a bit, if I may-I think there is some knowledge out there about parts of this crime. Big parts of course, but little parts as well. I think it is OK and perhaps time to let that information go. To turn it over. I have a friend who says to me all of the time: it is all good. It is going to be OK. You are going to be OK.

I believe that. I think there is a price you pay when you keep secrets. I cant imagine the effort it must take to hold it in. Anyway, this is jmho.

Well believe09, upthread, cloudajo kindly posted that evocatively named PI Agency.*

Michael is the commanding Archangel, I believe. The implacable leader of the army of right.

It is interesting what is said will happen when Michael stands:

'And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake.'
Daniel Ch 12.

 

[zwiebel]

BBM

I am with you on this. Why wasnt his morning routine complete?

I think it is clear that JeM didnt know that CL had switched her days. He would have been able to plan to fob her off or not return until she went away, likely in frustration. So if someone was playing the role of Bob on the phone, it wasnt JeM and it wasnt anyone who told JeM that CL was coming. JMVHO.

The only reason I can come up with for a perhaps a slow start that morning was Bob's exhaustion from what was clearly a contentious meeting the night before. We dont know his feelings at this time-we dont know if he felt betrayed and saddened at the possibility that love for him was based on his willingness to shell out money in an unending stream to his children and Grandchild.

As I see it, if someone did manage to do that, they would have to be:
Local, to get in and out before JeM returned (if he was not there);
Male, in order to imitate Bob;
Very close to Bob, in order to imitate him;
Have means of access, or be certain Bob would give them access, to the home;
Know Bob's normal routine.

I suppose if LE were to take that sort of direction it could be problematic, but it might put JeM completely in the clear.

 

[Oriah]

I don't want to get too OT. Bianca Jones, 2, went missing when her dad claimed he was carjacked. The car was found almost immediately but the child wasn't found with the car. Cadaver scent was found in the car on the car seat, the blanket which covered her and in the bedroom where Bianca slept. There was little blood evidence and the prosecutors relied heavily on cadaver scent.

Prosecutors believe she was placed in an incinerator and that her remains are not recoverable.

Her father was found guilty of 1st degree murder even though Bianca's body has never been found.

GUILTY MI - Bianca Lilly Jones, 2, Detroit, 2 Dec 2011 - D'Andre Lane **GUILTY** - #4 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Very good comparison case, Cubby- thank you.

HRD dogs can be a very effective tool for prosecution in cases where a victim is not recoverable, but evidence points toward a crime/death.

 

[zwiebel]

BBM

Yes the two PI's hired on this case have disappeared into thin air. I think we did a cost analysis from when we estimated the second PI was hired until the co conservators attorney testified in a hearing to the amount of money he had been paid to date. I used the hourly of a friend of mine who is a PI-based upon that Archangel was paid equaled about 4 hours a month. Hardly beating the bushes and turning over every stone in their quest. IIRC, a good chunk of that time was guarding RB, at least according to the transcript of the hearing. I will find a link to the transcript for that hearing...I think we have it here.

Which reminds me of something else that I thought was SO funny-detailed in the 10/31/11 trial transcript was a reimbursement cost to JuM for a meeting in a hotel room with the PI and the three girls. Apparently the PI was allergic to some animal they all own.

So rather than meeting a McD's or a diner or some such place, they rented a hotel room.

:floorlaugh:

You can take it or leave it as the truth-the trial transcript is also huge...too big to be loaded onto WS server.

Now that has really set my mind whirring.

Re: The hotel - were PI costs to be charged to the estate, by any chance?

 

[GrainneDhu]

Private Investigator and General Milestones

Daughter RB posted that their PI was retained to respectfully conduct a thorough investigation in total cooperation with the police with only general milestones being reported back to them.

Would you hire a PI, pay them for services, and be satisfied with only “general milestones” being reported back to you if you hired them to find your missing father? Also, it’s interesting that the company they hired has on their website that they provide things like recorded and written statements, a detailed report, etc.


Our experienced investigators are available to conduct thorough investigations and obtain photographic & video evidence, recorded & written statements, accompanied with a thorough detailed report & supporting documentation.

http://www.archangelpi.com/investigations.htm

I'm weird but no, I personally would not be happy with a "general milestones" report.

For one thing, what on earth does that mean? Just to be notified if Bob is found?

For me personally, I'm constantly fascinated by how things work, how people get things done, etc. I'd want to have long meetings where I could talk to the PI and get in detail how it is they are carrying out the investigation and why they are taking the steps they are taking. Just because I'd be fascinated to get an inside glimpse of how PIs do things.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Your post respectfully snipped. BBM. When I think of this I always go back to AH keeping his computer at Bob's house. Don't people keep their computers their own home or office? I can't help but think that having access to someone's ISP would come in handy when pretending to be them. Which brings me to the email exchange mentioned in AH's depo.

I could see giving Bob a computer that had already been set up, etc, to help him get onto the internet but at that point I'd be calling it Bob's computer if I were AH.

And I certainly wouldn't want it back. I'd be hoping that Bob would be back to use it himself. As a gift computer, I wouldn't have any need for it myself.

In fact, I'd want to leave the computer at Bob's house in hope I could teach Fontelle how to use it and get onto the internet, in order to facilitate the search for Bob if not solely out of concern for her social isolation. Monitors are cheap these days and it's not difficult to get a large monitor and set up a computer to show an extra large display for someone who is visually impaired.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I am with you on this. Why wasnt his morning routine complete?

I think it is clear that JeM didnt know that CL had switched her days. He would have been able to plan to fob her off or not return until she went away, likely in frustration. So if someone was playing the role of Bob on the phone, it wasnt JeM and it wasnt anyone who told JeM that CL was coming. JMVHO.

The only reason I can come up with for a perhaps a slow start that morning was Bob's exhaustion from what was clearly a contentious meeting the night before. We dont know his feelings at this time-we dont know if he felt betrayed and saddened at the possibility that love for him was based on his willingness to shell out money in an unending stream to his children and Grandchild.

I am re-thinking if knowing the CL was coming would have made any difference at all.

I have figured all along that someone did not want Fontelle to be added to Bob's accounts. In order to be added, I think Fontelle's signature would be needed (and her SS number and who knows what all else) so I had pretty much assumed that whoever made Bob disappear would have been satisfied with any time before Fontelle returned.

But just now I thought "what if Bob called his bank and his lawyer to set up appointments for adding Fontelle?"

In that light, Bob disappearing before he could make any such calls could be seen as a necessity. A twisted necessity.

So what if that someone else suspected what had happened and deliberately did things that drew attention to themself?

 

[zwiebel]

I am re-thinking if knowing the CL was coming would have made any difference at all.

I have figured all along that someone did not want Fontelle to be added to Bob's accounts. In order to be added, I think Fontelle's signature would be needed (and her SS number and who knows what all else) so I had pretty much assumed that whoever made Bob disappear would have been satisfied with any time before Fontelle returned.

But just now I thought "what if Bob called his bank and his lawyer to set up appointments for adding Fontelle?"

In that light, Bob disappearing before he could make any such calls could be seen as a necessity. A twisted necessity.

So what if that someone else suspected what had happened and deliberately did things that drew attention to themself?

A daughter posted that Bob sounded, on the phone, as though he had received a lot of calls that morning. Still not sure how you would work that out though, without Bob actually saying. What he was supposed to have said is all a bit vague.

 

[Oriah]

Has anyone managed to find this? Date and name search didn't work for me.

Trying to pull it up for ya'll. Now all I am getting is the closed traffic case for AH. *sigh* Ok, I am on a mission! BBL.

ETA: now I am getting the trash cases from April to June 2007. Check case# 07NM09162 and 10348. Those were all dismissed, but I wonder given the proximity to Mr. Harrod's residence, who was making the complaints? If the mapping is accurate, there are quite a few cul de sacs right there. Just wonder who was upset, and why. Also, notice that there is a retained attorney (DM?) Is this the firm does anyone know : http://www.davidmedinalaw.com/aboutus.nxg?

That seems unusual to me, given pretty simple charges of putting trash out when it's not trash day- but with prior motor vehicle issues makes more sense I guess? I suppose I just wonder if there were/are some angry neighbors with the Windflower residence in general? What sort of issues neighbors may have been aware of?

Oh ETA again: does anyone find pleading guilty to disturbing the peace on the initial date as the 1st unlawful placing of trash interesting? The first of 7 complaints of which all were dismissed except for that? Oriah scratches head...

 

[zwiebel]

Trying to pull it up for ya'll. Now all I am getting is the closed traffic case for AH. *sigh* Ok, I am on a mission! BBL.

ETA: now I am getting the trash cases from April to June 2007. Check case# 07NM09162 and 10348. Those were all dismissed, but I wonder given the proximity to Mr. Harrod's residence, who was making the complaints? If the mapping is accurate, there are quite a few cul de sacs right there. Just wonder who was upset, and why. Also, notice that there is a retained attorney (DM?) Is this the firm does anyone know : http://www.davidmedinalaw.com/aboutus.nxg?

That seems unusual to me, given pretty simple charges of putting trash out when it's not trash day- but with prior motor vehicle issues makes more sense I guess? I suppose I just wonder if there were/are some angry neighbors with the Windflower residence in general? What sort of issues neighbors may have been aware of?

Oh ETA again: does anyone find pleading guilty to disturbing the peace on the initial date as the 1st unlawful placing of trash interesting? The first of 7 complaints of which all were dismissed except for that? Oriah scratches head...

Scratching mine too. Especially as it was firmly pointed out to me upthread that Placentia is such a quiet, 'bedroom community'.

ETA: tlcox might be able to make some sense of this - maybe they will drop in later.

 

[tlcya]

Your post respectfully snipped. BBM. When I think of this I always go back to AH keeping his computer at Bob's house. Don't people keep their computers their own home or office? I can't help but think that having access to someone's ISP would come in handy when pretending to be them. Which brings me to the email exchange mentioned in AH's depo.

Lots of litle things bother me in this case this is one of the bigger ones. If that was AH's computer, and it was in Bob's place for some innocent reason I'll eat worms.

 

[zwiebel]

Get outta my head, tlcox(Lol)!

 

[zwiebel]

Lots of litle things bother me in this case this is one of the bigger ones. If that was AH's computer, and it was in Bob's place for some innocent reason I'll eat worms.

I wonder if Bob had opted for any online banking/ accounting/financial services? He would probably have needed some help, of course.

 

[GrainneDhu]

A daughter posted that Bob sounded, on the phone, as though he had received a lot of calls that morning. Still not sure how you would work that out though, without Bob actually saying. What he was supposed to have said is all a bit vague.

I suppose if Bob barked at the phone in answering it, the natural assumption would be he'd had too many calls for his taste that day.

Or, it could be one of those extra details that people tend to put into a lie to make it more convincing.

It seems to me that there are two high probability suspects: JeM and AH. We know a lot about JeM's day compared to what we know about AH's day. What we know of JeM's day seems foggy and, due to the lack of clarity, highly suspicious. Which makes AH seem less suspicious but I think that is because we know nothing of AH's day.

The timeline is difficult with JeM as the main suspect, mostly because Bob's body had to be disposed of somewhere it would not be easily found assuming that it was only moved from his house to the final destination; if you assume more than one stage in moving it, that opens up a whole new set of possibilities. But if AH is added to the possibilities, boy, that really opens up possibilities.

For instance, what if JeM actually disabled or killed Bob and then AH disposed of the body? The time constraints would not be a problem in that case.

One plus to such a scenario is that guilt would be more or less equally distributed between both men. If one of them were inclined to grow a conscience and then confess, the fact that the other is not just a partner in crime but a father or son would help keep the one inclined to confess quiet.

 

[LostOldUserName]

I know that I will probably get a lot of flack for this, but I think AH may be the one to "step up to the plate". If he was without a conscience, I don't think he would have called FH attorney.

 

[believe09]

I know that I will probably get a lot of flack for this, but I think AH may be the one to "step up to the plate". If he was without a conscience, I don't think he would have called FH attorney.

I so agree Lost...

 

[zwiebel]

Trying to pull it up for ya'll. Now all I am getting is the closed traffic case for AH. *sigh* Ok, I am on a mission! BBL.

ETA: now I am getting the trash cases from April to June 2007. Check case# 07NM09162 and 10348. Those were all dismissed, but I wonder given the proximity to Mr. Harrod's residence, who was making the complaints? If the mapping is accurate, there are quite a few cul de sacs right there. Just wonder who was upset, and why. Also, notice that there is a retained attorney (DM?) Is this the firm does anyone know : http://www.davidmedinalaw.com/aboutus.nxg?

That seems unusual to me, given pretty simple charges of putting trash out when it's not trash day- but with prior motor vehicle issues makes more sense I guess? I suppose I just wonder if there were/are some angry neighbors with the Windflower residence in general? What sort of issues neighbors may have been aware of?

Oh ETA again: does anyone find pleading guilty to disturbing the peace on the initial date as the 1st unlawful placing of trash interesting? The first of 7 complaints of which all were dismissed except for that? Oriah scratches head...

I got stuff up under case #803957.
records begin 01/05/1999 until 07/18/2000, and then it says case file destroyed 11/08/2002

 

[zwiebel]

I know that I will probably get a lot of flack for this, but I think AH may be the one to "step up to the plate". If he was without a conscience, I don't think he would have called FH attorney.

No flack from me, but if it's so, what a terrible position for any child to be in - or be put in.
I've said it before, but I really do feel for anyone who is innocent in this case, and it will be sad but no surprise to me if their lives are damaged. In my experience, having a murderer in my family, in jail, was terrible. Having him on the loose was much, much worse.

 

[believe09]

Trying to pull it up for ya'll. Now all I am getting is the closed traffic case for AH. *sigh* Ok, I am on a mission! BBL.

ETA: now I am getting the trash cases from April to June 2007. Check case# 07NM09162 and 10348. Those were all dismissed, but I wonder given the proximity to Mr. Harrod's residence, who was making the complaints? If the mapping is accurate, there are quite a few cul de sacs right there. Just wonder who was upset, and why. Also, notice that there is a retained attorney (DM?) Is this the firm does anyone know : http://www.davidmedinalaw.com/aboutus.nxg?

That seems unusual to me, given pretty simple charges of putting trash out when it's not trash day- but with prior motor vehicle issues makes more sense I guess? I suppose I just wonder if there were/are some angry neighbors with the Windflower residence in general? What sort of issues neighbors may have been aware of?

Oh ETA again: does anyone find pleading guilty to disturbing the peace on the initial date as the 1st unlawful placing of trash interesting? The first of 7 complaints of which all were dismissed except for that? Oriah scratches head...

David Medina is a criminal attorney according to his website.

Apparently AH knew of a criminal atty in spite of the phone call he made to Fontelle's atty...the one where he said he wanted the name of a criminal attorney. :waitasec:

Now I am just as confused as Oriah.

 

[cloudajo]

I'm weird but no, I personally would not be happy with a "general milestones" report.

For one thing, what on earth does that mean? Just to be notified if Bob is found?

For me personally, I'm constantly fascinated by how things work, how people get things done, etc. I'd want to have long meetings where I could talk to the PI and get in detail how it is they are carrying out the investigation and why they are taking the steps they are taking. Just because I'd be fascinated to get an inside glimpse of how PIs do things.

Below is from a missing persons investigator website (not the one hired by the daughters). It gives an idea of what might be done by an investigator. “General Milestones” for Phase One would be a listing like this below, without the supporting detail:

• Review complete
• Analysis complete
• Search site complete
• Biographical and psychological analysis complete
• Data sheet complete

MISSING PERSONS INVESTIGATION PROCESS

The following is a step-by-step description of the investigation process in regards to a Missing Persons case scenario. This process is designed to gather all pertinent information as quickly as possible to assist us in reuniting our clients with their missing relatives.

PHASE ONE INVESTIGATION

Preceding phase one, client is required to send necessary documents: police reports, chronology of circumstances of disappearance, background history or short biography of missing person to include all the items on the Missing Persons Data Sheet that will be faxed, emailed or completed via telephone questionnaire.

Once information is received from client the following is conducted:

•Review: Client information, medical records, law enforcement statements, and prior client investigations. Thereafter, will attempt to identify if the subject is missing because of foul play, human trafficking or having disappeared and possibly on the streets homeless or delusional, a victim of domestic abuse, mental illness, drug addiction, or alcoholism.
•Analyze: Geographical areas of interest based on urban or rural demographics.
•Search Site: Develop area maps and integrating zone fields to include buildings, community interest points and areas conducive to the missing persons last two weeks of behavior.
•Biographical and Psychological Analysis: Client records, friends, and relatives from 2 to 5 years prior to disappearance.
•Create Missing Person Comprehensive Data Sheet: This data will assist in the field investigation by compiling and detailing the missing person’s identifying data, a tracing sheet of attachments to include personal information including financial, legal, medical, community, education and employment, vehicle and driver information, utilities, and communications.

PHASE TWO INVESTIGATION

Phase 2 Investigation Is The Travel Phase

Following Phase One completion the investigation should uncover a confirmed or general address or area, then the client may choose to proceed with Phase Two investigation.

Phase Two involves traveling to the site area based on findings from Phase One.

The Following May Be Conducted:

•Locating and interviewing witnesses.
•Interacting and working collaboratively with NGO's, Government Social Service Agencies, Law Enforcement, and the Local Community.
•Conducting Press Releases and acting as Media Liaison for the family.
•Searching intensively for additional physical or circumstantial evidence of the disappearance or foul play.

http://www.lauthmissingpersons.com/missing-persons-investigations.html