CA - Christopher Dorner kills 4 in tri-county rampage, Feb 2013 - #3

[CountryGirl]

Fire-Proof Wallet? i've heard the Audio,on the police Scanner. Yep,intentionally set. I saw the KTLA 5 Christina Consolo report today ,she said Dorner was 50 YARDS AWAY for days help up in a house across the street from the Police HQ and the Press. they said We searched the Area. i guess they didn't do a good enough job. I am posting this Fact. because in the days that followed Dorner shot and , sadly killed another LE officer w/ family. a very good search of ALL buildings ,would have kept this man alive. Somebody on the LE force should have the courage and take the blame.this ball-drop ended w/ someone's life. on Feb 7th Dorner's wallet was found near the MEX border,He had 2? Why? and how did he get the second one ,Run back home? No.If your America's most wanted you carry YOUR REAL ID w/ you? Why not get a fake one w/ a different name? i have written these questions to LA TIMES and KTLA 5 ,and i am currently waiting for a response. An very sad day here in CALI ,My heart goes out to ALL the families affected by this mad man.and yes even the Woman,whose house was torched by LE.

I have a little info on this as a friend of mine's LE son saw the San Ysidro ID, badge. According to my friend the badge didn't look real and the ID was not his CDL.

 

[shadowraiths]

Black Support for Dorner Shows Lingering Mistrust of Police ( link )

As one of the biggest manhunts in recent U.S. history concluded Tuesday night with the apparent death of Christopher Dorner, one of its unintended consequences has been to bring to the surface tensions between minorities and the Los Angeles Police Department that have long simmered just out of sight. While everyone is in agreement that the killing of four innocent people is wrong under any circumstances, some people sympathized with Dorner—and some were even hoping that he would get away—because of their own experiences with members of a police force that for years has had a reputation for being exceptionally brutal to black and brown citizens.

[...]

These responses may anger those who feel the only proper response in this situation is the denunciation of Dorner. But nowhere is the old saying that there are two Americas—one black and one white—more evident than in the interactions between white police officers and black males, and that fact underlies the emotional reaction of many people to this case, regardless of its precise details.​

 

[gramcracker]

talked w/ peeps in BB this morning because I wanted to know which PD had jurisdiction over the initial searches. there is currently no BBPD because LE services are contracted w/ San Bernardino County Sheriff. there are some sheriffs who live locally and are dedicated to local patrol and some who live out of area and patrol locally. so however/whatever, SBCS is a huge organization because SB county is the largest (area-wise) county in the lower 48 states

 

[cinsbythesea]

I'm going to say it flat out, right or wrong. I'm more worried, afraid of LE and other powers that be, than I am of a hundred Dorners.

You and me both. The Dorners of the world are far and few between hopefully. LE however is a constant presence. My SO is former LE and the stories he used to tell me about how LE abused and misused their power has tainted my view of them forever.

 

[shadowraiths]

His service record doesn't include any combat. No service in a war zone.
http://www.10news.com/news/investigations/us-navy-releases-records-of-triple-shooting-suspect-christopher-dorner02072013

From the above link (emphasis added, mine)

Awards and Decorations

National Defense Service Medal

Iraq Campaign Medal

Global War on Terrorism Service Medal

Sea Service Deployment Medal

Navy Marine Corps Overseas Service Ribbon

Armed Forces Reserve Medal w/ “M” Device

Rifle Marksman Ribbon

Pistol Expert Medal​

From Wikipedia Iraq Campain Medal

The Iraq Campaign Medal became available for general distribution in June 2005.[4] It was awarded to any member of the U.S. military who performed duty within the borders of Iraq (or its territorial waters) for a period of thirty consecutive days or sixty non-consecutive days. The medal was awarded retroactively from March 19, 2003 until the end of Operation New Dawn on December 31, 2011.[5] Personnel who engaged in combat with an enemy force, or personnel wounded in combat or wounded as a result of a terrorist attack within Iraq received the Iraq Campaign Medal regardless of the number of days spent within the country.​

 

[Sonya610]

I'm going to say it flat out, right or wrong. I'm more worried, afraid of LE and other powers that be, than I am of a hundred Dorners.

It is sad that you feel that way. I am NOT saying you are wrong it is just unfortunate that you have to live someplace where you don't trust the police.

I don't trust the Feds but I absolutely trust our local LE. The police in this county are very nice and responsive, we have a low crime rate so they don't have hostile interactions with scum and idiots all day long and I am sure that makes a big difference. It isn't an "us against them" mindset because they ARE part of us (or maybe it is an us against the dangerous outsiders in other counties?).

They have a "good ole' boy" mindset in this town and some folks complain it is too political BUT never any concern about abuse or not taking care of crime/problems.

 

[bourne]

You and me both. The Dorners of the world are far and few between hopefully. LE however is a constant presence. My SO is former LE and the stories he used to tell me about how LE abused and misused their power has tainted my view of them forever.

I think there are lots of "Dorners" out there -- peeps with grievances against LE, city officials, their bosses and colleagues, etc. They just haven't acted out on their resentments, and I hope they never will.

 

[MsFacetious]

Fire-Proof Wallet? i've heard the Audio,on the police Scanner. Yep,intentionally set. I saw the KTLA 5 Christina Consolo report today ,she said Dorner was 50 YARDS AWAY for days help up in a house across the street from the Police HQ and the Press. they said We searched the Area. i guess they didn't do a good enough job. I am posting this Fact. because in the days that followed Dorner shot and , sadly killed another LE officer w/ family. a very good search of ALL buildings ,would have kept this man alive. Somebody on the LE force should have the courage and take the blame.this ball-drop ended w/ someone's life. on Feb 7th Dorner's wallet was found near the MEX border,He had 2? Why? and how did he get the second one ,Run back home? No.If your America's most wanted you carry YOUR REAL ID w/ you? Why not get a fake one w/ a different name? i have written these questions to LA TIMES and KTLA 5 ,and i am currently waiting for a response. An very sad day here in CALI ,My heart goes out to ALL the families affected by this mad man.and yes even the Woman,whose house was torched by LE.

The person who's house was torched has said they don't care. It's just stuff, they can replace it.

I was listening to the scanner as it happened. They deployed "burners" which are the tear gas canisters.
Before they did that they tried the less flammable tear gas, it didn't work.

So they resorted to the more flammable ones. I do not fault them for that.
I wouldn't even fault them if they DID burn the place down on purpose. At that point the priority was getting him before it got dark.

Dorner had the CHOICE to come out and not stay in the fire. Instead I believe he shot himself and then burned.
I also believe he was already injured from the gunfight before. So maybe he was in no condition to run out and chose to end it all.
I did not expect LE them to enter that cabin after a gunfight. They had to do what they could from OUTSIDE to stay alive.

I do agree that they SHOULD have searched that cabin he was hiding in for days.
Even aside from the fact that they didn't find him, all those LE were constantly within shooting range of the guy.
They should have searched the cabins closest to the truck and the cabins that were within shooting range of the command post. :what:

However, if they HAD found him hiding in the cabin, I think we still would have the same number of dead, if not more.
I think he was READY for LE to come into that cabin, it's possible he was laying in wait with a trap set... using the truck to draw them in.

Unless he really believed they were incompetent, he had to think they'd search it. That's just a logical step in this case.
So he may have killed multiple officers had they entered that cabin. More officers that also likely have a family.

I have no criticism for LE's actions at the cabin that day. I have no issue with any of that. :twocents:

 

[wfgodot]

.....

L.A. Daily News ‏@ladailynews
#BREAKING — San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department says body in burned cabin positively identified as #Dorner via dental records.

 

[Voice4theSilent]

Oh my word. People were crying because there wasn't an award. Then there was. Now people are crying because the award was only for his alive capture and conviction. What kind of award is for a mans death? Now that's sick. Not sure if I've seen one of those awards in modern times. People would be crying about that if the cabin owners were paid for that. There is no winning here for LE. And still reports are saying Dorner started the fire. And still LE are blamed. Even when LE had every right to set that cabin on fire to flush him out for surrender, it would not have been for murder. Killing himself was his choice. People need to get real.

I have learned in life that there are a group of "Monday Morning Quarterback" type of people who will pick apart and find fault in anything and everything. The type of people who never allow anyone to err; the type of people who won't allow anyone to act in any way other than in their teeny, tiny little box of acceptable, ever changing ways. The rest of us, regardless of who we are or what we do, are damned if we do, damned if we don't. These same people would have complained about LE not being aggressive enough, had they acted in the different way. They would have complained about LE seeming too complacent if too calm on the radio. They would have complained about the rights and privacy of people being violated had LE broke into every unoccupied structure in Big Bear. The same people who would have screamed to the highest mountains that LE should have fired upon an approaching truck without headlights on in the dark of morning if it had indeed been Dorner instead of paper delivery women. If Dorner started the fire instead of LE (which I believe he did, as an attempt of escape) they will find a way to complain about that. Have these people ever been in these situations themselves so that they can draw on personal experience prior to critiquing the actions of others? Of course not, but we all know that. These people are too busy sitting back telling everyone else what they are doing wrong. Don't be mistaken, of course I am not saying or even implying that these same people are sensitive to the murderer, of course they aren't; these people are overly critical of everyone's actions. There is no reasoning with these people. There is no convincing these people. There is no changing these people.

 

[bourne]

Van Jones, president and founder of Rebuild the Dream, an online platform focusing on policy, economics and media:

"We should not be "using this occasion" to debate various theories of racial justice -- not while the blood of the innocent is still fresh on the ground. Dorner's actions have invalidated his notions of justice; killing innocent people is not the proper method to advance the cause of justice, period.

Furthermore, why should any of us participate in giving Dorner exactly what he wanted? We should not validate his quest for attention by discussing his political thinking, especially not while mourning families are planning funerals.

The people who deserve to be talked about today are the victims of this violence and the people who are trying to make positive change in peaceful, lawful ways.

I don't want to reference Dorner in any way except for what he was -- someone who was very disturbed, who needed mental health support and who cruelly took the lives of those devoted to service."

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/13/opinion/jones-chris-dorner/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

I agree with him.

 

[believe09]

Fire-Proof Wallet? i've heard the Audio,on the police Scanner. Yep,intentionally set. I saw the KTLA 5 Christina Consolo report today ,she said Dorner was 50 YARDS AWAY for days help up in a house across the street from the Police HQ and the Press. they said We searched the Area. i guess they didn't do a good enough job. I am posting this Fact. because in the days that followed Dorner shot and , sadly killed another LE officer w/ family. a very good search of ALL buildings ,would have kept this man alive. Somebody on the LE force should have the courage and take the blame.this ball-drop ended w/ someone's life. on Feb 7th Dorner's wallet was found near the MEX border,He had 2? Why? and how did he get the second one ,Run back home? No.If your America's most wanted you carry YOUR REAL ID w/ you? Why not get a fake one w/ a different name? i have written these questions to LA TIMES and KTLA 5 ,and i am currently waiting for a response. An very sad day here in CALI ,My heart goes out to ALL the families affected by this mad man.and yes even the Woman,whose house was torched by LE.

I want to make sure I am understanding you correctly-you believe that the fire in/around the cabin was intentionally set by LE and that they planted his wallet at the scene?

do you honestly believe that if LE had found him in that cabin, there would have been no other loss of life?

I find that surprising given your prior posts speculating on how adept Dorner was at keeping himself under the radar.

 

[Voice4theSilent]

BBM



Um, no.

The single shot fired from within the cabin was after the burners were deployed.

26:22 and 30:56 here:

https://archive.org/details/DornerStandoff2,

or

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


and

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


I will not be surprised if Dorner shot himself.

As you say, we don't know the cause of death.

However, controversy around the use of pyrotechnic/incendiary canisters is not new.

HOWEVER, it is in LE's absolute right to use them if the situation warrants. If people don't like it they need to work to change that right, not complain about them using something that is in their current protocol as an effective and acceptable tool.

I am confused why, with there being a high probability (based on his manifesto, his actions and the events that unfolded two days ago) that Dorner shot himself, people are still complaining about LE killing him with their "burners" (that of course we still haven't received confirmation as to what LE was even referring to with those statements.) :waitasec:

 

[Voice4theSilent]

I'm going to say it flat out, right or wrong. I'm more worried, afraid of LE and other powers that be, than I am of a hundred Dorners.

Until one of those "hundred Dorners" comes after you and you call up LE to come save you. :boohoo:

 

[Foxfire]

I have learned in life that there are a group of "Monday Morning Quarterback" type of people who will pick apart and find fault in anything and everything. The type of people who never allow anyone to err; the type of people who won't allow anyone to act in any way other than in their teeny, tiny little box of acceptable, ever changing ways. The rest of us, regardless of who we are or what we do, are damned if we do, damned if we don't. These same people would have complained about LE not being aggressive enough, had they acted in the different way. They would have complained about LE seeming too complacent if too calm on the radio. They would have complained about the rights and privacy of people being violated had LE broke into every unoccupied structure in Big Bear. The same people who would have screamed to the highest mountains that LE should have fired upon an approaching truck without headlights on in the dark of morning if it had indeed been Dorner instead of paper delivery women. If Dorner started the fire instead of LE (which I believe he did, as an attempt of escape) they will find a way to complain about that. Have these people ever been in these situations themselves so that they can draw on personal experience prior to critiquing the actions of others? Of course not, but we all know that. These people are too busy sitting back telling everyone else what they are doing wrong. Don't be mistaken, of course I am not saying or even implying that these same people are sensitive to the murdered, of course they aren't; these people are overly critical of everyone's actions. There is no reasoning with these people. There is no convincing these people. There is no changing these people.

Transparency: 'Criminal Profiler Pat Brown quote'

We could use a strong accountability system not dependent on appeals, but rather oversight. The public/citizens have a right to know exactly how decisions are made and cases are handled.

It does not have to be in the midst of the case but certainly afterward there should be transparency. If there isn’t, how can we address issues of corruption*, incompetance, and error?

We need to know in order to fix problems and hold people accountable for what is supposed to be work done on behalf of the citizens. Somehow “the interest of the state” seems to preclude the citizenry which is odd considering the state IS the citizenry, well, at least in a democratic republic with a constitution..

 

[gramcracker]

I do agree that they SHOULD have searched that cabin he was hiding in for days. a mind boggling level of incompetence which I hope results in disciplinary actions

Even aside from the fact that they didn't find him, all those LE were constantly within shooting range of the guy. those in his line of sight had an unknown advantage: he was w/o transportation

They should have searched the cabins closest to the truck and the cabins that were within shooting range of the command post. :what: the guys I've talked to in BB are hunters and off-roaders. they are frustrated because they were convinced that he was staying on the high roads above town which overlook everything below. they are frustrated because their ideas/suggestions were blown off by LE, and they were told that the searches in upper Moonridge were oh so thorough. not

However, if they HAD found him hiding in the cabin, I think we still would have the same number of dead, if not more. possibly, but it would have been over the first day

I think he was READY for LE to come into that cabin, it's possible he was laying in wait with a trap set... using the truck to draw them in. disagree, because the couple who walked in on him entered unharmed

Unless he really believed they were incompetent, he had to think they'd search it. That's just a logical step in this case. may have come to BB because he didn't fear/respect the abilities of LE there

So he may have killed multiple officers had they entered that cabin. More officers that also likely have a family.

I have no criticism for LE's actions at the cabin that day. I have no issue with any of that. :twocents:
I have no issue w/ what happened at the cabin

the command center, in the lower end of the Bear Mtn parking lot, was well below the ski slopes. the condo across from the command center is also below the slopes

his original location/where the truck was burned is directly across from and slightly higher than the slopes at Bear Mtn. I do think that he would have been shooting at LEOs who were anywhere on the property at Bear Mtn if he hadn't lost his transportation. the reduced-rate skiing for LE/fire/EMS personnel that day was well publicized. (the ski resort websites are well-maintained and they clear the dates which have already passed, but that day's date was most definitely posted there when it was a current date)

the scopes on his weapons would've enabled clean shots from enough distance that no one would be sure where the shots came from: which direction to think about first?

before anyone can realize and react to what just happened (and no one knows he's in town) he jumps in his truck and leaves the scene on the higher back roads which lead out of town. he would be off the mountain before the situation was assessed enough to call for helicopter crews which could spot him on the access roads. and, they would only call for helicopters if they thought the shooter was using the back roads. they'd jump on patrols and searches and blocking main roads first (which we saw). air searches aren't much good if you can't tell them what to look for

 

[gramcracker]

my perception here is big strong voices praising what was done while little tiny whispers acknowledge obvious mistakes

mistakes are opportunities to learn how to do better next time. the complement to "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" is "you can't fix it if you don't name it"

 

[Paulette]

IMO, it doesn't matter how LE neutralized Dorner. From the time he tied up the couple in their own cabin & stole their car to the last shot he fired into his demented brain, he caused havoc! He was nothing but a menace to everyone! Racing around a school bus, shooting at Fish & Game, gun battle in the street & woods, killing a cop. Who cares how he was neutralized??

He was worse than a rabid dog. Did he care if children were crossing the street? Did he care if the bullets he was firing hit an innocent person? NO. He was a thief and a murderer.

Breaking into someone's cabin and watching them shovel snow in the days before they came to clean - then complimenting the man for being a hard worker as he tied him up. HUH? What an arrogant piece of $%^&.

If I could have thrown a canister of whatever the stuff was into the cabin, I would have gladly done it.

LE did a great job of neutralizing a monster.

 

[MsFacetious]

I was easily able to figure out that HC meant the Rodney King 1992 riots.
HC likely simply made a typo which is certainly understandable. :twocents:

I believe that obviously by the time the couple entered the cabin he knew it wasn't LE and LE wasn't coming into the cabin.
I think if LE had entered the cabin on the first day he likely would have shot them one by one.
He was aware enough to realize this couple was not LE because he'd been watching them cleaning up after the storm for days.

No one would think they would search the cabin next to the command post days later.
When they didn't search it immediately he would have known they weren't going to. :twocents:

What is REALLY disturbing is that there WAS forced entry into this cabin... and LE said they were checking them all for forced entry.
A window screen out of the window on the ground should have been enough to question the owners about it... or suspect forced entry. :twocents:

 

[Lois Lane]

The San Bernardino County Coroner’s office has confirmed human remains recovered from a burned-out cabin following Tuesday’s deadly gun battle are that of quadruple murder suspect Christopher Dorner.

The remains were identified with dental records.

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013...ned-out-cabin-are-that-of-christopher-dorner/

The cause of death was not released with the identification.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/14/us/lapd-dorner/?hpt=hp_t1