CA - Court upholds Menendez brothers' convictions

[Noirdame79]

There is absolutely nothing to suggest they were in any danger than night. They barbarically murdered their parents in the worse way imaginable.

I am still on the fence on if they should be freed as Lisle just comes across as a complete narcissistic.

Moo

They thought they were in danger. An abused person's mind is wired differently. Their parents were a threat to them, and had been their entire lives.

 

[bearfossils]

They thought they were in danger. An abused person's mind is wired differently. Their parents were a threat to them, and had been their entire lives.

Amen. Trauma, especially repeated physical and sexual trauma perpetrated by a parent, adversely affects brain development and severely impacts individuals in both short-term and long-term ways. A person who has been abused is not going to necessarily think or respond the same way a psychologically healthy person would.

If you’ve been violated and harmed by someone, particularly if that person is supposed to be the one providing love and safety to you, you are never going to feel safe around that person. It’s nearly impossible to gauge what a “reasonable threat” from an abuser is to someone who has been traumatized that way.

 

[ilovewings]

Amen. Trauma, especially repeated physical and sexual trauma perpetrated by a parent, adversely affects brain development and severely impacts individuals in both short-term and long-term ways. A person who has been abused is not going to necessarily think or respond the same way a psychologically healthy person would.

If you’ve been violated and harmed by someone, particularly if that person is supposed to be the one providing love and safety to you, you are never going to feel safe around that person. It’s nearly impossible to gauge what a “reasonable threat” from an abuser is to someone who has been traumatized that way.

For a moment let's assume you are correct- so am to assume that the best way to deal with the abuser(s) is murdering said abuser? Are you saying there are no other means or ways to deal with such a situation--- go to the police, leave the home, go to a relative- I dunno- seems to me that there are other ways of dealing with parental abuse, other than barbaric murder!!! If they truly felt threatened that night ( and I don't believe they did), but if they did, why couldn't they have gotten out of that house and gone somewhere to get away from what they perceived as a threat. I am not buying their story. sorry.

 

[Salah11]

Millions of people suffer trauma, but they don’t decide to brutally annihilate their parents. That’s the big difference here.

 

[Noirdame79]

Some do. Every situation is different, and every abuse survivor is different. Some of those survivors did not fear that their parents would kill them.

 

[Salah11]

For a moment let's assume you are correct- so am to assume that the best way to deal with the abuser(s) is murdering said abuser? Are you saying there are no other means or ways to deal with such a situation--- go to the police, leave the home, go to a relative- I dunno- seems to me that there are other ways of dealing with parental abuse, other than barbaric murder!!! If they truly felt threatened that night ( and I don't believe they did), but if they did, why couldn't they have gotten out of that house and gone somewhere to get away from what they perceived as a threat. I am not buying their story. sorry.

Because they wanted their big payday. Pure Greed drove them to do what they did that night. Not fear as they claim as if they were that scared they would have left home way before that night. They loved their life style more than freedom.

Moo

 

[Noirdame79]

Because they wanted their big payday. Pure Greed drove them to do what they did that night. Not fear as they claim as if they were that scared they would have left home way before that night. They loved their life style more than freedom.

Moo

The greed motive was never proven in either trial.

 

[SouthEnd]

The greed motive was never proven in either trial.

What stopped them from leaving in that situation? In my understanding in an abusive situation the victim has few prospects or no way out. In their case they had enough money and resources to make a clean cut. That's what tips the scales for me, IMO

 

[Salah11]

The greed motive was never proven in either trial.

Considering the £££ they spent after the murders I fail to see how that’s not a massive motivation.

 

[bearfossils]

For a moment let's assume you are correct- so am to assume that the best way to deal with the abuser(s) is murdering said abuser? Are you saying there are no other means or ways to deal with such a situation--- go to the police, leave the home, go to a relative- I dunno- seems to me that there are other ways of dealing with parental abuse, other than barbaric murder!!! If they truly felt threatened that night ( and I don't believe they did), but if they did, why couldn't they have gotten out of that house and gone somewhere to get away from what they perceived as a threat. I am not buying their story. sorry.

I’m not saying it’s the “best way”; I’m merely stating that the way you’re approaching the situation with isn’t the same way someone who has been repeatedly abused as a child would approach it. You’re thinking about it in terms of how a normal individual would deal with a threat. That’s going to be wholly different than how an abused mind processes or responds to situations involving their abuser.

And not for nothing, but considering other individuals besides the brothers have spoken about being abused as children by the father, yeah, I “buy their story”.

 

[bearfossils]

Millions of people suffer trauma, but they don’t decide to brutally annihilate their parents. That’s the big difference here.

That doesn’t discount those who do have a violent reaction to their abusers. I’m not saying they were justified, but I think it’s irresponsible to discount their abuse when quantifying their actions.

 

[Chimera]

There is absolutely nothing to suggest they were in any danger than night. They barbarically murdered their parents in the worse way imaginable.

I am still on the fence on if they should be freed as Lisle just comes across as a complete narcissistic.

Moo

Bbm.
This ^^^

From the crime scene photos Jose looked as if he was sitting and watching tv and that was all.
Their mother Kitty was on the floor a foot or so away from the coffee table and it appeared she'd tried to crawl away ?

They'd driven to San Diego, CA the day of the murders.
They were not captives and they could have chosen different options, imo.

Lyle and Erik Menendez - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

They acquired Mossberg 12-gauge shotguns along with boxes of birdshot and buckshot ammunition in a Big 5 Sporting Goods store in San Diego, California, where Erik used a stolen driver's license from Lyle's friend, Donovan Goodreau

Why not move away or at least that day -- just keep driving ?
On the other hand, Jose and Kitty weren't home 100 % of the time so Erik and Lyle could have packed up what they wanted and moved out while their parents weren't at home.

Menendez brothers timeline: A look at the murders, the trials and the efforts to free them

Erik and Lyle Menendez, who are serving life sentences for their parents' 1989 murders, have sought to challenge their convictions and reduce their prison terms. Los Angeles' DA is expected to speak to reporters about the case Friday.

www.nbcnews.com

"The siblings fatally shot their parents, they testified, after Lyle confronted Jose about his brother’s abuse. When Lyle threatened to expose his father, he testified, Jose appeared to threaten him and his brother.
And after prosecutors discovered that Lyle had asked a friend and an ex-girlfriend to make false claims for the defense..."
Rbm.
No, Jose was watching TV, not appearing to threaten anyone.
It looked like he hadn't moved from the couch and may not have known what hit him.
I fear that Kitty might have known her sons were murdering her, and that is chilling.

Re. the red bolded : There is --and was -- a lot of deception on the part of the brothers, going on around this case.
Imo.
Omo.

 

[Noirdame79]

What stopped them from leaving in that situation? In my understanding in an abusive situation the victim has few prospects or no way out. In their case they had enough money and resources to make a clean cut. That's what tips the scales for me, IMO

Their father was wealthy and powerful, and had the resources to track them down if they left. The brothers were isolated from their relatives, who were also afraid of the parents. People like to say they should have gone to the police, but at the time, it is unlikely they would have been believed (their father was a Hollywood entertainment executive, and the #MeToo movement brought this issue to light years later). The late Les Zoeller, who was the lead detective on the case, stated in a 2018 documentary that he and his fellow officers didn't believe the sexual abuse when it was brought up at trial, because Jose was married and having affairs with women, which speaks volumes about the attitude and lack of knowledge at the time.

As mentioned, childhood trauma re-wires the brain. Their emotional maturity was stunted and their development was compromised. They had very little real-world experience. Hyper-vigilance is very common in these situations. Dr. Ann Burgess, who evaluated Erik in the first trial did an excellent job of explaining this.

JMO

 

[Salah11]

That doesn’t discount those who do have a violent reaction to their abusers. I’m not saying they were justified, but I think it’s irresponsible to discount their abuse when quantifying their actions.

We live in a civilized society so their actions can never be justified.

They were not prisoners and could have walked out of the front door with the clothes on their back and started again. But they deemed themselves too privileged so that was never a option.

Moo

 

[Noirdame79]

Considering the £££ they spent after the murders I fail to see how that’s not a massive motivation.

That money came from an insurance policy they didn't know existed. The estate wasn't settled until after they were arrested. They also had to get approval from their relatives for every purchase they made; they couldn't just go out and buy what they wanted. This was all brought out at the first trial, which was why the prosecution abandoned the money motive and tried to use hatred and control as the motives, which also fell flat.

 

[Salah11]

That money came from an insurance policy they didn't know existed. The estate wasn't settled until after they were arrested. They also had to get approval from their relatives for every purchase they made; they couldn't just go out and buy what they wanted. This was all brought out at the first trial, which was why the prosecution abandoned the money motive and tried to use hatred and control as the motives, which also fell flat.

The same relatives that apparently knew they were being abused and never did anything?

 

[Keekdasneak1314]

I think we have to remember what abuse does to any individual, especially being abused by your parents. The father was known to be into young boys, as he was a HUGE Menudo fan. I believe during one of the episodes of E true Hollywood Story for Ricky Martin, he talked about the abuse he suffered ( and allude to it being at the hands of Jose), and apparently there were other victims in Menudo as well. I say all of this to say, if there's more concrete stuff out there, how could it not be taken into consideration? The point is to understand the defendants Mens rea at the time of the crime. IMHO if you really understand what abuse does to a kid from their parent, let alone a person of the same sex; just adds layers of trauma, that outweigh/ prove that this was not a malicious, thought out crime with the outcome leading to no parents and money. Idk I thought justice would prevail for this case, and I'm sad it didn't.

 

[Noirdame79]

The same relatives that apparently knew they were being abused and never did anything?

You'd be surprised how common that is. Some of the cousins (who were children themselves) had a better idea of what was going on, but they were also afraid of the parents. Many of the adult relatives were too. The parents were very intimidating people. Most relatives were aware of the emotional and physical abuse, but didn't think it was their place to interfere - and it was a different time. The brothers each told a cousin (on separate occasions) that their father had been touching them inappropriately. One of the cousins went to Kitty, who told her that it wasn't true and that was the end of the discussion. The other cousin was sworn to secrecy by Erik, which is heartbreaking because he was so afraid of being in more trouble for telling.

 

[bearfossils]

We live in a civilized society so their actions can never be justified.

They were not prisoners and could have walked out of the front door with the clothes on their back and started again. But they deemed themselves too privileged so that was never a option.

Moo

“They were not prisoners” — Not in a traditional sense, no. They were not physically restrained. In a psychological sense? Absolutely. The people who they were dependent on for their nurturing and survival were the same individuals who repeatedly abused, demeaned, and neglected them. Trauma like that affected their development as children, and the fact that they felt bound to their abusers for emotional, psychological, and financial reasons certainly deepened that damage.

And to the notion that they could just leave their homes and start new lives, without complications, is a gross oversimplification of the situation. That’s like saying an abused wife could just walk out and leave at any time, and vilifying her for not doing so. You’re completely ignoring the complexity of the bonds and the power of wealthy individuals like their parents. Growing up like that, they probably already felt indebted and bound to their parents, and isolated from most of their peers; the added weight of abuse would only further entwine and poison those bonds and that isolation.

Again, I’m not saying what they did was right. I just don’t believe it is the same as some spoiled adult murdering a parent for inheritance. This was a powerful and abusive man with money who was used to operating with impunity— and we’ve certainly seen how individuals like that are able to manipulate authorities and escape any kind of consequences. A child abused by such a person would certainly know that better than most.

 

[Noirdame79]

Denial tends to be a big issue in these types of families as well, which is one of the reasons why abuse tends to be generational. Jose and Kitty were abused by at least one of their parents as well. It's also interesting how people who have similar backgrounds can spot one another and gravitate toward each other.