Exactly, I agree. They had a very privileged upbringing and they weren't satisfied with immense wealth, they wanted it all in my opinion and they murdered their parents to get it. Unredeemable.
Jmo
CA - Court upholds Menendez brothers' convictions
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Jmo
It would for instance explain why they lied to everyone about the murders because they didn't want the motive being discovered. Everything else could follow from that. As mentioned i believe they were majorly financially motivated so i'm not arguing that jsut saying a case can be made for sexual abuse even applied to those points.
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Seconding the appreciation for putting together the list, Otto.
I agree: The media coverage didn't influence me (I generally don't believe anything I hear from the media). The things that Otto mentioned, their own attitudes, the threat to kill their therapist, etc., etc., etc.
Lile and Erik, themselves, convinced me that they are con men.
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Maybe they were in some way abused, be it sexually, physically or emotionally... Maybe they weren't abused in the slightest... I do not know for a fact and neither does any single other person here on WS nor the internet and anybody who argues with that, I'm sorry but you're blinkered.
What we DO know, even if some struggle to except it/try to ignore it/choose to defend it, is -
That the (at the time of the crime) ADULT Menendez brothers brutally murdered their parents. They blasted them to bits with shotguns - left the scene, reloaded and came back to blast them some more. Some may try to justify this double murder but the fact is proven - they are in fact murderers.
It was proven in court that this was a premeditated crime, however some will cry out that aspect of the verdict was incorrect wah wah, however in court the evidence shown regarding premeditation was legally proven... A fact.
It is a fact that the Menendez brothers are consistent and renowned liars. It has been proven BARD over and over and over that they both lied before the murder, lied about the murder, lied after the murder, lied in court and have repeatedly lied whilst incarcerated. They're liars, fact.
It is a fact that the brothers are criminals. Seasoned criminals in fact. Again it's been proven BARD that they committed various criminal activities prior to the murders, then we have the murders and then we have the repeated criminal activities whilst incarcerated ranging from smaller crimes such as possessing and using a phone inside (it's a crime, like it or not) to much larger crimes such as the tax stuff - they're professional criminals, fact.
So yah, abuse or no abuse, it doesn't and will never justify, excuse or be the cause of the actual facts that we know about these two men and I cannot and will not ever understand how hypocritical some people can be when they spout out of one side of their mouth how much the boys were justified in blasting their parents to bits because of something nobody knows as a fact, whilst out of the other side rallying for the justice system. Lady justice is blind for a reason and this is a case of a double premeditated murder with zero proof of any self defence, a fact.
If the brothers had have not continued to be criminals whilst incarcerated, I believe that parole would have been given and as much as I wouldn't have totally agreed with it, I would have understood and accepted their parole. As it stands though, they did continue to be criminals (a fact) whilst their fanclubs on the outside gaslighted people into thinking they were squeaky clean, and they have very rightfully been denied parole.
Let's see what happens in 3 years time - I predict at least one of them will continue the criminal acts inside.
IMO
What we DO know, even if some struggle to except it/try to ignore it/choose to defend it, is -
That the (at the time of the crime) ADULT Menendez brothers brutally murdered their parents. They blasted them to bits with shotguns - left the scene, reloaded and came back to blast them some more. Some may try to justify this double murder but the fact is proven - they are in fact murderers.
It was proven in court that this was a premeditated crime, however some will cry out that aspect of the verdict was incorrect wah wah, however in court the evidence shown regarding premeditation was legally proven... A fact.
It is a fact that the Menendez brothers are consistent and renowned liars. It has been proven BARD over and over and over that they both lied before the murder, lied about the murder, lied after the murder, lied in court and have repeatedly lied whilst incarcerated. They're liars, fact.
It is a fact that the brothers are criminals. Seasoned criminals in fact. Again it's been proven BARD that they committed various criminal activities prior to the murders, then we have the murders and then we have the repeated criminal activities whilst incarcerated ranging from smaller crimes such as possessing and using a phone inside (it's a crime, like it or not) to much larger crimes such as the tax stuff - they're professional criminals, fact.
So yah, abuse or no abuse, it doesn't and will never justify, excuse or be the cause of the actual facts that we know about these two men and I cannot and will not ever understand how hypocritical some people can be when they spout out of one side of their mouth how much the boys were justified in blasting their parents to bits because of something nobody knows as a fact, whilst out of the other side rallying for the justice system. Lady justice is blind for a reason and this is a case of a double premeditated murder with zero proof of any self defence, a fact.
If the brothers had have not continued to be criminals whilst incarcerated, I believe that parole would have been given and as much as I wouldn't have totally agreed with it, I would have understood and accepted their parole. As it stands though, they did continue to be criminals (a fact) whilst their fanclubs on the outside gaslighted people into thinking they were squeaky clean, and they have very rightfully been denied parole.
Let's see what happens in 3 years time - I predict at least one of them will continue the criminal acts inside.
IMO
Excellent post. Well done.
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^^bbm
Lyle Menendez has been denied parole just like his brother Erik. Here's where things stand
The brothers have been in prison for more than three decades for the shotgun murders of their parents, Jose and Kitty Menendez, at their Beverly Hills home in August 1989.laist.com
As with this brother, Menendez's use of cellphones in prison played prominently during the hearing. Cellphones are contraband and possession one is considered a serious violation of prison rules.
Citing prison records, Deputy Parole Commissioner Patrick Reardon noted Menendez had access to a cellphone from 2018 until 2024.
Menendez said he lived in a prison dorm during that time with five other people. He said someone would take responsibility for the phone who didn’t have anything to lose.
“I had convinced myself that this wasn’t a means that was harming anyone but myself... ," Menendez said. "I didn’t think it really disrupted prison management very much.”
In March 2024, Menendez lost his family visits because he got caught with the phone. Because he was caught again, he is now barred from family visits for three years.
According to a prison risk-assessment, cited by Garland, a doctor found Menendez had anti-social traits and was prone to entitlement, deception and manipulation. He also had a history of not accepting consequences.
Menendez said he talked through those issues with his doctor.
"Those elements were there with the cellphone use," he said. "I recognize them.”
This post is a great reminder of why Lyle was not called to testify in trial #2--his defense knew his entire testimony would be impeached by his recorded telephone convos with Norma. Again, entitled Lyle believed his actions would have no consequences, and this was something for his legal team to "fix."
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Seattle, from your quote: "Menendez said he talked through those issues with his doctor."
Okay, so a doctor says he had anti-social traits and was prone to entitlement, manipulation, and deception, as well as a history of not accepting consequences. But Lyle says he's talked through those issues -effectively waiving them away.
Okay,so now let's hear that from the doctor.
Except that his excuses about the cell phone proves that he still has those very issues. Repeated breaking of prison rules with the cell phone, then "waiving away" the issue with I convinced myself it wasn't a big deal... No taking responsibility for breaking the rules. In fact, still breaking the rules, almost 25 years after entering prison. Repeatedly.
Here's the thing: Most of us have a hard time imagining that using a cell phone is a "serious offence". In prison, though, it's a very serious one. That's how drug deals get done. That's how crimes outside of prison get done. Etc. I can only imagine what a nightmare it would be if prisoners all had regular use of cell phones. Lyle, though, who's actually in that environment, simply can't imagine how it could be a big deal. How it could disrupt management. Okay. Anyone who believes that, I have a bridge to sell you.
Okay, so a doctor says he had anti-social traits and was prone to entitlement, manipulation, and deception, as well as a history of not accepting consequences. But Lyle says he's talked through those issues -effectively waiving them away.
Okay,so now let's hear that from the doctor.
Except that his excuses about the cell phone proves that he still has those very issues. Repeated breaking of prison rules with the cell phone, then "waiving away" the issue with I convinced myself it wasn't a big deal... No taking responsibility for breaking the rules. In fact, still breaking the rules, almost 25 years after entering prison. Repeatedly.
Here's the thing: Most of us have a hard time imagining that using a cell phone is a "serious offence". In prison, though, it's a very serious one. That's how drug deals get done. That's how crimes outside of prison get done. Etc. I can only imagine what a nightmare it would be if prisoners all had regular use of cell phones. Lyle, though, who's actually in that environment, simply can't imagine how it could be a big deal. How it could disrupt management. Okay. Anyone who believes that, I have a bridge to sell you.
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It definitely is a form of abuse
That is your opinion, with all due respect.
Not mine.
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In the video of Mark Geragos (posted upthread), he seems really angry that violent prisoners cannot have cell phones. He alleges that prison guards supply illegal phones to prisoners, and that the only reason prisoners are denied cell phones is because someone wants to profit when prisoners use legal phones.
Rather than use his vast legal knowledge to challenge prison rules, he got on TV and had a bit of a meltdown about prison rules. It's as though he was channeling the two convicted murderers - yelling that it's not fair, trying to get people riled up, complaining loudly, and failing to acknowledge risk to society when convicted criminals can secretly arrange criminal activities from prison.
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Mark Geragos is just a loud mouth criminal defense attorney who isn't even that successful ( just ask Scott Peterson)- personally, I can't stand him.
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It's believable that Menendez has talked with professionals and others about his use of manipulation and deception to get what he wants, and that he has no empathy for his victims. Talking through those issues does not change who he is. It merely provides him with language to discuss who he is. He can now use the phrase "consequential thinking" in a sentence.
His "consequential thinking" kicked in one year ago when he thought he might have a chance at early release. He has decades where he couldn't care less about the consequences of action and suddenly, he cares - but only until he is released from prison. Then he doesn't care anymore.
He's too old to change his ways. If he is released, he will size up everyone he encounters in the context of what he can take, how easily he can do it, and how it benefits him.
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He is, but over the years he has lost sight of professional ethics. Making a public fuss because violent criminals are denied cell phones - which would allow them to continue criminal activities during incarceration - leaves him sounding like a criminal rather than a lawyer.
Did he send the bill to the Menendez supporters after that public rant? Was that billable time to advance the cause of his clients, or does he believe what he said? Is he using the media to present his client's legal arguments, or to present his legal opinion?
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Not an opinion, but a fact according to research and psychologists.
Study: Overbearing Parents Lead to Long-Term Struggles With Relationships, Education
Having hyper-controlling parents at age 13 predicts less support in romantic relationships by the age of 29, a lower likelihood of even being on a relationship at 32 and less academic achievement by the age of 32.
Are you comparing sexual abuse with being a dominating parent or have I misunderstood you?Not an opinion, but a fact according to research and psychologists.
Study: Overbearing Parents Lead to Long-Term Struggles With Relationships, Education
Having hyper-controlling parents at age 13 predicts less support in romantic relationships by the age of 29, a lower likelihood of even being on a relationship at 32 and less academic achievement by the age of 32.news.virginia.edu
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Totally agree with this, Otto. He hasn't changed, and I see no evidence that he ever will.
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Not to be argumentative, but just saying here that publishing a study doesn't establish fact.Not an opinion, but a fact according to research and psychologists.
Study: Overbearing Parents Lead to Long-Term Struggles With Relationships, Education
Having hyper-controlling parents at age 13 predicts less support in romantic relationships by the age of 29, a lower likelihood of even being on a relationship at 32 and less academic achievement by the age of 32.
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I don't see a connection between that article and violent criminals. This article is interesting, because it tells the story before Erik and Lyle re-wrote their history to suit their needs. They had a strict father with high expectations who balanced lectures with love to encourage excellence. Their mother was accommodating, always driving them where they had to go and occasionally completing their homework.Not an opinion, but a fact according to research and psychologists.
Study: Overbearing Parents Lead to Long-Term Struggles With Relationships, Education
Having hyper-controlling parents at age 13 predicts less support in romantic relationships by the age of 29, a lower likelihood of even being on a relationship at 32 and less academic achievement by the age of 32.
After the murders, Lyle was eager to replace his father, but he lacked shrewd financial management. He dressed and acted the part, but he threw money around like it was worthless, and had no financial success.
"Apparently surprised as he snacked and watched television in the family room, Jose Menendez, a 45-year-old Cuban immigrant who ran a Van Nuys video company, was shot at point-blank range in the back of the head. Four other blasts ripped into his arms and thigh.
His wife, Mary Louise, whom everybody called Kitty, tried to run but got no more than a few feet away. The killers seemed intent on doing far more than ending a life: They disfigured her with 10 blasts: four into the head and one that nearly severed her hand. Although they had just filled the neighborhood with the sounds of shotgun fire, the killers seemed to be in no hurry to flee. They patiently gathered the shell casings from among the pools of blood on the Oriental rug and parquet floor before leaving.
Erik, in an interview later, “These aren’t just two people. These are our parents.”
...
Lyle, the dominant, emotionally cool older brother who seemed driven to match his father’s amazing accomplishments, and Erik, the vulnerable one who dreamed of a pro tennis career, now sit in Los Angeles County Jail, having pleaded not guilty to charges that could bring the death penalty.
...
Erik was extremely close to his mother, who taxied her sons back and forth to tennis practice. And Lyle admired his father so much that he bored friends by quoting him and retelling the incredible story of Jose’s rise, by sheer force of will and hard work, from an immigrant who washed dishes to an executive who wielded power in the boardrooms of America’s elite companies.
After the slayings, in fact, Lyle eerily took on his father’s role in the family and jumped immediately into a feverish string of business deals in an apparent effort to prove himself an heir not only to his father’s fortune but also to his legend.
...
Jose Menendez was a larger-than-life character who possessed great charm and intense drive. He was in command of every situation, arrived first at every conclusion and out-hustled every competitor. He also exercised great power over his household and hammered into his sons the ethic of success and achievement.
...
Still, what Jose Menendez wanted for his sons was no more than what many success-oriented families want for their children. If he drove them hard on the tennis court, yelling and coaching from the sidelines, so do many others. No one can remember Jose Menendez ever striking his sons. After all, he prided himself on his insight into human nature. He wasn’t a ham-handed disciplinarian. If he was tough and prone to lecture, he also hugged his kids frequently to show that he loved them, according to friends and relatives.
...
Almost immediately after the slayings, the brothers’ behavior began to attract the attention of police. Lyle went on a shopping spree, picking up several thousand dollars’ worth of clothes, and was seen cruising around Princeton, N.J., in a rented limousine, with a bodyguard. Within a few weeks after the deaths, he bought a $64,000 special edition Porsche Carrera. A friend who asked Lyle how he was bearing up was flabbergasted to hear his answer: “Well, I’ve been waiting so long to be in a position like this that the transition came easy.”
1990
THE MENENDEZ BROTHERS : Jose Menendez Gave His Sons Everything. Maybe Even a Motive for Murder.
ON A MILD SUNDAY last summer, a string of "popping sounds" drifted through the lazy night air of Beverly Hills around 10 o'clock.
www.latimes.com
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Then we have Erik. When he wrote a screenplay, it was not about victims of parental abuse murdering family members. It was about murder for millions.
"The teen and one of his Calabasas buddies, Craig Cignarelli, wrote a 62-page screenplay called Friends, in which a spoiled son of wealthy parents commits five murders, starting with his mom and dad, after finding out their estate is worth $157 million. The killer inherits the estate but dies in the end."
www.eonline.com
"When Erik and Craig wanted to escape, they would climb to the top of one of the scrub-covered hills overlooking the Pacific Ocean. Sometimes their dreams would take the form of wondering how one might commit the “perfect crime,” Cignarelli says.
They decided to turn one of their fanciful ideas into a screenplay--maybe this would be the first great thing they would do. They adjourned for three days to the Cignarelli family cabin in Frazier Park in Kern County and wrote a 62-page screenplay called “Friends,” the story of a self-centered son of a wealthy couple, who commits five murders, starting with his own parents.
The play, which Erik’s and Craig’s mothers typed, opens with the protagonist, Hamilton Cromwell, finding the family will and discovering that he stood to inherit $157 million. In the next scene, Hamilton is seen climbing the stairs to his parents’ bedroom. Then:
A gloved hand is seen gripping the doorknob and turning it gently. The door opens, exposing the luxurious suite of Mr. and Mrs. Cromwell lying in bed. Their faces are of questioning horror as Hamilton closes the door behind gently, saying . . . “Good evening, mother. Good evening, father . " (His voice is of attempted compassion but the hatred completely overwhelms it). All light is extinguished, and the camera slides down the stairs as screams are heard behind.
The murder is left to the imagination. Hamilton inherits the family estate, but in the end he is killed--and dies smiling. The screenplay might have been forgotten if not for what happened in August, 1989.
Adding yet another bizarre twist to the tale are reports that the two friends wrote a second screenplay. However, in this one, according to someone close to the case, some of the details of the murders bear a striking resemblance to the way the murders of Jose and Kitty were actually carried out."
www.latimes.com
"The teen and one of his Calabasas buddies, Craig Cignarelli, wrote a 62-page screenplay called Friends, in which a spoiled son of wealthy parents commits five murders, starting with his mom and dad, after finding out their estate is worth $157 million. The killer inherits the estate but dies in the end."
Lost in L.A.: This Menendez Brothers Murder Map Will Help You Put the Crazy, Sprawling Story Into Perspective
The Beverly Hills mansion where Erik and Lyle Menendez killed their parents was only the beginning...
www.eonline.com
"When Erik and Craig wanted to escape, they would climb to the top of one of the scrub-covered hills overlooking the Pacific Ocean. Sometimes their dreams would take the form of wondering how one might commit the “perfect crime,” Cignarelli says.
They decided to turn one of their fanciful ideas into a screenplay--maybe this would be the first great thing they would do. They adjourned for three days to the Cignarelli family cabin in Frazier Park in Kern County and wrote a 62-page screenplay called “Friends,” the story of a self-centered son of a wealthy couple, who commits five murders, starting with his own parents.
The play, which Erik’s and Craig’s mothers typed, opens with the protagonist, Hamilton Cromwell, finding the family will and discovering that he stood to inherit $157 million. In the next scene, Hamilton is seen climbing the stairs to his parents’ bedroom. Then:
A gloved hand is seen gripping the doorknob and turning it gently. The door opens, exposing the luxurious suite of Mr. and Mrs. Cromwell lying in bed. Their faces are of questioning horror as Hamilton closes the door behind gently, saying . . . “Good evening, mother. Good evening, father . " (His voice is of attempted compassion but the hatred completely overwhelms it). All light is extinguished, and the camera slides down the stairs as screams are heard behind.
The murder is left to the imagination. Hamilton inherits the family estate, but in the end he is killed--and dies smiling. The screenplay might have been forgotten if not for what happened in August, 1989.
Adding yet another bizarre twist to the tale are reports that the two friends wrote a second screenplay. However, in this one, according to someone close to the case, some of the details of the murders bear a striking resemblance to the way the murders of Jose and Kitty were actually carried out."
THE MENENDEZ BROTHERS : Jose Menendez Gave His Sons Everything. Maybe Even a Motive for Murder.
ON A MILD SUNDAY last summer, a string of "popping sounds" drifted through the lazy night air of Beverly Hills around 10 o'clock.
www.latimes.com
O.k., I went and looked for this pic. This is the best I can do. It appears to be cropped. In the original I saw, Jose is visible and standing off to the side looking up at the baby, Erik. His hands aren't up, waiting ready to catch him. And I'm not sure if it's visible in this pic but one hand of Erik's is slipping off of the bar. An aunt who was present at the time this pic was taken said it was Kitty who took the pic.
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