CA - Elliot Rodger kills 6, injures 13 in Isla Vista, Near UC Santa Barbara, #2

[mck16]

Was Adam Lanza on anything? Was James Holmes (I think something but I forget)? I'd say most mass murderers are not on anything when they commit these crimes. Drugs have a way of making you focus on yourself such that you might engage in violence with those immediately around you who you have a dispute with, but do not really go in line with long term planning and brooding and having the ability to pull it off. Drugs tend to derail longterm plans. Of course, this is a generalization, but most horrific crimes do not seem to be committed by people on drugs. They are suffering from mental illness or have snapped under extreme circumstances. Stupid, impulsive crimes are committed by people on drugs. Again, a generalization, but people always want to blame these crimes on psych meds (or ADHD meds, which is laughable). Most of these people don't appear to have been on any meds.

So what is the difference in a horrific crime and not a horrific crime. It is still a crime and a horrible instance. jmo

 

[jjenny]

Was Adam Lanza on anything? Was James Holmes (I think something but I forget)? I'd say most mass murderers are not on anything when they commit these crimes. Drugs have a way of making you focus on yourself such that you might engage in violence with those immediately around you who you have a dispute with, but do not really go in line with long term planning and brooding and having the ability to pull it off. Drugs tend to derail longterm plans. Of course, this is a generalization, but most horrific crimes do not seem to be committed by people on drugs. They are suffering from mental illness or have snapped under extreme circumstances. Stupid, impulsive crimes are committed by people on drugs. Again, a generalization, but people always want to blame these crimes on psych meds (or ADHD meds, which is laughable). Most of these people don't appear to have been on any meds.

Lanza was on absolutely nothing. Not sure about Holmes. However, we know Rodger planned to take Xanax and vicodin, it's in his manifesto.

 

[Tricia]

Fascinating show tonight with Dr. Lillian Glass and Cathy from CourtChatter.com Dr. Glass discussed her in-depth look into spree killer Elliot Rodger and Cathy told us about a murder case with a Bondage/Master/Slave theme. Like I said fascinating. If you missed it you can always find all iHeart True Crime shows at this link.
http://www.spreaker.com/user/triciag/052914-the-true-crime-show

 

[jjenny]

So, where did he get the Vicodin. On the street??? jmo

He didn't say.

 

[Colbie]

sigh.....I know Jenny! Anyway, most Psychologists give the scripts 'cause they practice with a Psychiatrist under his/her licensure. In some states, Psychologists can write their own scripts and this is increasing.

So, if ER was on Xanax for 6 months as the family attorney stated, where did he get it from? I doubt the MD who treated ER for the "ledge incident" would've renewed a Xanax script if he had been the one who initially prescribed it.

So who?

It is EXTREMELY rare for psychologists to have prescribing privileges, although there is a movement advocating for this in multiple states:

Prescriptive authority for psychologists movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Primary physicians, physician assistants, nurse practitioners, and psychiatrists are the most common providers who provide my private practice clients psychiatric medication. However, anyone with a DEA number can prescribe psychiatric meds, which really stinks as not all practitioners have sufficient training in this area.

 

[jjenny]

Man Who Came Face-to-Face With Isla Vista Killer Recounts Close Call
http://ktla.com/2014/05/29/man-who-came-face-to-face-with-isla-vista-killer-recounts-his-close-call/

In addition to narcissism and what not, Rodger was apparently very racist, despite being biracial himself.

 

[mck16]

It is EXTREMELY rare for psychologists to have prescribing privileges, although there is a movement advocating for this in multiple states:

Prescriptive authority for psychologists movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Primary physicians, physician assistants, nurse practitioners, and psychiatrists are the most common providers who provide my private practice clients psychiatric medication. However, anyone with a DEA number can prescribe psychiatric meds, which really stinks as not all practitioners have sufficient training in this area.

So how do they get the DEA number if they are not licensed physicians? ty

 

[Colbie]

So, you think this massacre was carried out by a perfectly clear minded person. Maybe drunk, maybe on Xanax. I am sorry, but I disagree. He was definitely on some drug. jmo

Mental illness can alter someone's state of mind just as intensely as medication complications can. The power of the chemistry in our brain and how the neuropathways we strengthen affect our behavior--astonishing and fascinating.

 

[mck16]

Mental illness can alter someone's state of mind just as intensely as medication complications can. The power of the chemistry in our brain and how the neuropathways we strengthen affect our behavior--astonishing and fascinating.

I understand and totally agree. But, your average drunk just drinks and then just passes out. Without further impedius he does not move on to some sort of mass murder spree. jmo

 

[Colbie]

BBM: either do teachers- yet they are faced with the responsibility of "educating" them- as well as all students safety..? You (as in a general term) do not want to see some of what is in class with your kids, imo. Teachers are not given a dx. They are not given a list of meds each kid is on / supposed to be taking, etc. They are given a list of accomodations/modifications to curriculum if there is a 504 or IEP in place only.


Um- 3 were stabbed to death. ER had no criminal record. A law to prohibit possession based on an opinion of another is a slippery slope, imo. I have a disabled son, who is more likely to be a victim- who also has a CCP

The difference is that teachers do not have legal authority to initiate a 5150 hold.

Yes, a restraining order of this type could definitely turn into a slippery slope, but this could be mediated somewhat by requiring psychological/psychiatric evaluation before making the determination about a firearm restraining order and only allowing this with certain pervasive/severe mental illness diagnoses.

But I admit that I am biased due to my family's difficulties determining if my unmedicated aunt, who has paranoid schizophrenia and now lives in Nevada, has a firearm. She was involuntarily institutionalized 4 times and she was still able to buy a Glock in Texas. I always worry that she will hurt herself or others.

 

[Colbie]

So how do they get the DEA number if they are not licensed physicians? ty

Many prescribing providers are not licensed physicians (physician assistants and nurse practitioners, for example). Prescriptive authority can be given to PA's, ANP's, M's, DO's and others. Here is a link that describes this in my state of Colorado:

http://cdn.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite/DORA-Reg/CBON/DORA/1251632267188

Currently, psychologists may only prescribe in two states, New Mexico and Louisiana, and in the U.S. military.

 

[momrids6]

Yes, a restraining order of this type could definitely turn into a slippery slope, but this could be mediated somewhat by requiring psychological/psychiatric evaluation before making the determination about a firearm restraining order and only allowing this with certain pervasive/severe mental illness diagnoses.

But I admit that I am biased due to my family's difficulties determining if my unmedicated aunt, who has paranoid schizophrenia and now lives in Nevada, has a firearm. She was involuntarily institutionalized 4 times and she was still able to buy a Glock in Texas. I always worry that she will hurt herself or others.

The problem I see is it would be another reason for people to not seek treatment. Criminal possession is not hindered by any laws it seems. They threw out the baby with the bathwater, imo, when they revamped the mental health laws in the 70's...

 

[mck16]

Yes, a restraining order of this type could definitely turn into a slippery slope, but this could be mediated somewhat by requiring psychological/psychiatric evaluation before making the determination about a firearm restraining order and only allowing this with certain pervasive/severe mental illness diagnoses.

But I admit that I am biased due to my family's difficulties determining if my unmedicated aunt, who has paranoid schizophrenia and now lives in Nevada, has a firearm. She was involuntarily institutionalized 4 times and she was still able to buy a Glock in Texas. I always worry that she will hurt herself or others.

It seems to me that you have a handle on this. You know how to deal with it. Prayers for your and your aunt. jmo

 

[lawstudent]

So what is the difference in a horrific crime and not a horrific crime. It is still a crime and a horrible instance. jmo

I mean in the sense that the crimes people seem to panic about. There is a huge fear that the streets are full of mentally ill people about to go on shooting sprees, or sexual predators. Most violent crimes are not done by monsters who can be easily identified - the average rapist, murderer, or shooter blends in pretty well. I don't hear many people saying anyone who commits domestic violence should be locked away for life because many times it leads to the death of a spouse - that to them is not as horrifying because it doesn't seem to be as random and as possibly close to home. Most crimes are also less gruesome and hurt fewer people than those committed by people who are viewed as disturbed.

My point was just that I wouldn't be surprised to hear he is on no medication. Plenty of people who plan out and commit gruesome crimes do so because they are disturbed, and many seem to not be into drugs or alcohol at all. It seems to be more "normal" people who commit violent crimes while under the influence of substances, out of impulse. I just think it is interesting. People go on and on about how insane people are on meth and all that it seems that most people who've committed extreme murders recently did so with a cold determination, not in a drugged out craze. The human mind can be a scary thing, and a lot of people take drugs to quiet it down.

He may have taken something to give him courage, but it seems like this was something he was planning with a sober mindset and was not driven by a drug-addled mind. If he did take those meds right beforehand, he risked falling asleep before doing what he wanted.

 

[jjenny]

Once his autopsy results come out, we will know exactly what was in his system.

 

[Colbie]

The problem I see is it would be another reason for people to not seek treatment. Criminal possession is not hindered by any laws it seems. They threw out the baby with the bathwater, imo, when they revamped the mental health laws in the 70's...

I agree, that this could be an outcome, but not in high numbers. Admittedly, I have not seen any research on how such laws would affect access to mental health treatment. I would imagine that psychiatric hold authority given to mental health practitioners in some states also warranted concern about treatment access, but we have come to accept this as a social more in society and it has not impaired access significantly. Licensure laws and malpractice lawsuits would also protect clients from overzealous mental health practitioners.

 

[momrids6]

The difference is that teachers do not have legal authority to initiate a 5150 hold.

rsbm: I understand the difference. The problem is, neither LE or teachers have the knowledge of a psychiatrist; imo, neccessary to deal with what they have been burdened with when it comes to severe mental health issues & safety.

 

[Colbie]

rsbm: I understand the difference. The problem is, neither LE or teachers have the knowledge of a psychiatrist; imo, neccessary to deal with what they have been burdened with when it comes to severe mental health issues & safety.

Oh, I understand you now. I apologize for misunderstanding. Yes, I agree that teachers and LE often are giving this burden in addition to everything else they have to do in their jobs. School districts and LE would benefit greatly from increased employment of mental health providers in these areas.

 

[momrids6]

I agree, that this could be an outcome, but not in high numbers. Admittedly, I have not seen any research on how such laws would affect access to mental health treatment. I would imagine that psychiatric hold authority given to mental health practitioners in some states also warranted concern about treatment access, but we have come to accept this as a social more in society and it has not impaired access significantly. Licensure laws and malpractice lawsuits would also protect clients from overzealous mental health practitioners.

There is limited access to treatment in most of the country; not enough beds, not enough qualified doctors, $$, inane insurance regs, stigma, over prescription of un-neccessary meds, ridiculous laws, and non-compliance of patients for varying reasons.

Advocates will not assist in conservator or guardianship in 99% of the country. It is almost impossible to get someone involuntarily committed, even Baker Acted.

To get back on the topic of ER specifically- I believe he was bound and determined to carry out his plan- and would have found a way, even if he was held for 72 hours (or longer) , and was "gun-less'. He waited a month after the LE visit- and no one called, insisted, or went to court to try to get an emergency hold or guardianship.

 

[Colbie]

The problem I see is it would be another reason for people to not seek treatment. Criminal possession is not hindered by any laws it seems. They threw out the baby with the bathwater, imo, when they revamped the mental health laws in the 70's...

Here is an NY Times blog I just read I think you would enjoy and some of which validates your concern about such laws being enacted.

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2014/05/29/can-therapists-prevent-violence