CA - Elliot Rodger kills 6, injures 13 in Isla Vista, Near UC Santa Barbara, #2

[LinasK]

The difference is that teachers do not have legal authority to initiate a 5150 hold.

Yes, a restraining order of this type could definitely turn into a slippery slope, but this could be mediated somewhat by requiring psychological/psychiatric evaluation before making the determination about a firearm restraining order and only allowing this with certain pervasive/severe mental illness diagnoses.

But I admit that I am biased due to my family's difficulties determining if my unmedicated aunt, who has paranoid schizophrenia and now lives in Nevada, has a firearm. She was involuntarily institutionalized 4 times and she was still able to buy a Glock in Texas. I always worry that she will hurt herself or others.

Actually, anyone can make a 5150 call. The police come and take the person away by ambulance to a psych hospital where the 72 hour stay is determined. My next-door neighbor threatened suicide by gun at 3a.m. His wife called police and then they knocked on my door to get the spare key...
I've also seen it happen in nursing homes where they took a resident away.

 

[lawstudent]

If I seriously thought my son might commit suicide I know him better than any cop. Sadly, I would lie and say he told me he was going to so cops would take the situation more serious.

If they were only communicating with him electronically though, there would be a record of that, and it wouldn't be the best thing because if it came out they lied, they might have a hard time getting him help in the future. But, I doubt that was a concern - they probably didn't even think of exaggerating in that moment, but were expressing honest concerns. If they really felt he was that bad and had lied to the police, they probably would have flown out to him after calling the police and not just taken their word.

However, even if they said he threatened it, that still wouldn't have gotten him committed, most likely. If he downplayed or denied it in front of the cops and did not appear to have taken drugs to OD and was not making any such threats or acting hysterically, there just was not grounds. People who are taken away either admit they are suicidal and agree to go, or are out of control and screaming out threats that give the police reason to take them.

If the "welfare check" was for possible suicidal ideologies, and LE WAS aware of weapons WITH an "alleged" MI, they could have taken "temporarily" possession of them.

ER was slick. I read his manifest and watched his videos the day after the murders.........that's why I can not agree with ASD (Autism Spectrum Disorder). My son's GF watched and read also, her sister has HF ASD (Aspergers). She doesn't agree with it either.:twocents:

I feel the same way regarding ASD, not because people on the spectrum can't be smart, but because those who have major social issues as a result of it do not seem to turn their frustrations outward in this way. At the same time, he didn't have to be slick - just not seem suicidal. The cops could have noticed he was awkward and not have been concerned about his mental state. I assume the parents explained he wasn't totally normal.

But, unless you are aware of facts of the law in CA that I am not aware of, you can't just say they "could have" taken possession. Having weapons and possible suicidal tendencies does not give the police the right to search your home for them or take possession of them. A restraining order for domestic violence requires you to give up your weapons in some states, and things of that nature, but that requires hearings and other safeguards. The cops don't just get to make that call.


ETA: Anyone can call and report behavior that could result in a 5150, but no one but doctors have the authority to make that hold. Police can initially make the call that an evaluation is needed, but usually they don't rely on someone else's word. The person usually is still worked up when they get there.

 

[LinasK]

From my understanding a wellness check (also called a welfare check) encompasses people with psychiatric issues, disabled/elderly persons, those who are reported missing, etc. Once the police arrived for the wellness check with the information given to the dispatcher about the situation, they interview the person and determine if any services, psychiatric holds (which is a 5150), arrests, etc. need to be made.

In short, wellness/welfare checks can sometimes result in a 5150 hold, but 5150 holds most often come from wellness checks.

I've only practiced in Texas and Colorado so this might not be the case with certain areas, please correct me if I'm wrong.

In CA, any threat of suicide or to harm another will result in a 5150 if police are called. Obviously Rodgers fooled the police into believing he was not a threat when they checked on him that time...

 

[Quester]

Interesting point Q. I don't know if he drove (or even had access to a car) but as soon as my children had a car and cell phone, they also had quick chargers for the car (in case batteries got low). My oldest was not allowed to have his car for his first year on campus (discouraged by University and enforced by us) because he lived on campus. Also the fact that his Dad stated that when he called to check on his son, the son didn't pick up which was noted to be very unusual. I don't know how often his parents called, but if they checked often, then you've made a very interesting point indeed.

Good points back at you!

UCSB used to be a bicycling campus with bicycle trails and bike racks throughout. I believe that has changed some (reduced) over the years.

So my first guess would be that GC would have biked or skateboarded from his on-campus dorm to ER's off-campus apartment. Driving that relatively short distance and then trying to find parking would have been more of a pain than it was worth.

Wonder when he headed over to ER's apt?

 

[mrsobrien]

The violence does not indicate AS,imo. Other mannerisms do though, just based on knowing my AS brother for 30 years and the research I've done over the years. Considering all the conflicting claims in the media regarding ER's diagnosis, or lack thereof, I guess we just don't know. We may never know.

If they were only communicating with him electronically though, there would be a record of that, and it wouldn't be the best thing because if it came out they lied, they might have a hard time getting him help in the future. But, I doubt that was a concern - they probably didn't even think of exaggerating in that moment, but were expressing honest concerns. If they really felt he was that bad and had lied to the police, they probably would have flown out to him after calling the police and not just taken their word.

However, even if they said he threatened it, that still wouldn't have gotten him committed, most likely. If he downplayed or denied it in front of the cops and did not appear to have taken drugs to OD and was not making any such threats or acting hysterically, there just was not grounds. People who are taken away either admit they are suicidal and agree to go, or are out of control and screaming out threats that give the police reason to take them.



I feel the same way regarding ASD, not because people on the spectrum can't be smart, but because those who have major social issues as a result of it do not seem to turn their frustrations outward in this way. At the same time, he didn't have to be slick - just not seem suicidal. The cops could have noticed he was awkward and not have been concerned about his mental state. I assume the parents explained he wasn't totally normal.

But, unless you are aware of facts of the law in CA that I am not aware of, you can't just say they "could have" taken possession. Having weapons and possible suicidal tendencies does not give the police the right to search your home for them or take possession of them. A restraining order for domestic violence requires you to give up your weapons in some states, and things of that nature, but that requires hearings and other safeguards. The cops don't just get to make that call.

 

[Bernina]

*respectfully snipped*

But, unless you are aware of facts of the law in CA that I am not aware of, you can't just say they "could have" taken possession. Having weapons and possible suicidal tendencies does not give the police the right to search your home for them or take possession of them. A restraining order for domestic violence requires you to give up your weapons in some states, and things of that nature, but that requires hearings and other safeguards. The cops don't just get to make that call.


ETA: Anyone can call and report behavior that could result in a 5150, but no one but doctors have the authority to make that hold. Police can initially make the call that an evaluation is needed, but usually they don't rely on someone else's word. The person usually is still worked up when they get there.

Yes, they can. If LE gets a call for a possible suicide, and are told of fire arms, they can. If they HAD been told ER had weapons, I don't believe for a minute they would have politely conversed with him. They would have had "probable cause" for a warrantless entry and ER would have been down on the ground with his fingers laced behind his head.

How many times have we heard of "suicide by cop"? And if the individual is suicidal, what would prevent him from taking a few LE down with him?

ER states in his Manifesto, he planned for that scenerio. http://www.scribd.com/doc/225960813/Elliot-Rodger-Santa-Barbara-mass-shooting-suspect-My-Twisted-World-manifestopg. 134:

 

[Quester]

On-campus dorms (on linked map, teal colored bldgs on both sides of the Lagoon) are not very far from IV:

See map of UCSB and IV:
http://www.aw.id.ucsb.edu/maps/images/aw_pdfs/UCSB_IV_2012.pdf

UCSB campus:

http://www.ucsb.edu/campus/images/campus-maps.jpg

 

[Whiteorchids]

There's a possibility that "suicidal intent" was not established by the individual who called LE. LE might have been told ER could "possibly" be in a very depressed state. ER was an adult. His family/therapist/whoever might not have wanted to go overboard and threaten his possible residency in that apartment with LE carting him off? Or maybe they didn't want to incur ER's wrath?

You have to claim to have heard or read "suicidal threats" from the individual, and then LE would be prepared to 1510 on the spot if it was warranted.

I've done it all. My oldest son 31 is paranoid Schizophrenic unmedicated. He has refused meds the last 9 months so is in and out of being normal. It's like pulling teeth trying to get anything done to get him in a hospital or any lengthy stay. This is no less a living hell. I wish this on no family. We've been through it all and to put it simply I am worn out from it.

The system at least in Cali completely sucks for people with severe MI. That's all I've got to say. I have been drained going through this mess 11 years. It only gets worse.

 

[Dmacky]

But would 3 20 yr old college students be asleep at 9 pm on a Friday night?

We don't know for sure yet if they were actually killed Friday evening. ER could have easily killed them early Fri. morning while they were still sleeping. That would have given him the apt. to himself all day Friday, to plan for his evening massacre. I don't want my mind to go there, but this monster was capable of anything :furious:

 

[Dmacky]

It has not been posted via MSM WHEN they died. There is a possibility they were murdered earlier that day, ie, early morning.

OOPs , Sorry...you had already posted this. That's what I get for not reading before I post ~ :blushing:

 

[Quester]

5/26/14: California shooting: Police investigating [ER] killing spree
'worried about copycat attacks'

... Officers took computer equipment, notes, files and disks from the
homes of Elliot’s separated parents [P & LC] in West Hills, California.

A police source said: “The police raids were a decision to make sure that
Elliot’s steps in the last few years could be traced, especially online.

... “The family were not told of the raids.

“Relations between the police and the family are very tense at the moment.

“Things were soured when the family went public accusing the police of
not doing enough to intervene in their son’s life.” ...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/california-shooting-police-investigating-elliot-3610929

 

[nightwatch]

ER's parents and siblings have been getting death threats. They are victims as well!

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2014/05/elliot-rodger-parents-death-threats-ucsb-shooter/

This is terrible if true. Angry people maybe lashing out at ER's family. Sure would be interesting if the father gave an interview. Jmo

ciao

 

[jjenny]

Yes, they can. If LE gets a call for a possible suicide, and are told of fire arms, they can. If they HAD been told ER had weapons, I don't believe for a minute they would have politely conversed with him. They would have had "probable cause" for a warrantless entry and ER would have been down on the ground with his fingers laced behind his head.

How many times have we heard of "suicide by cop"? And if the individual is suicidal, what would prevent him from taking a few LE down with him?

ER states in his Manifesto, he planned for that scenerio. http://www.scribd.com/doc/225960813/Elliot-Rodger-Santa-Barbara-mass-shooting-suspect-My-Twisted-World-manifestopg. 134:

His parents had no idea ER purchased weapons. ER used cash when he purchased his guns, so parents wouldn't have any credit card receipts. LE should have done the background check to see if he had any weapons.

 

[jjenny]

We don't know for sure yet if they were actually killed Friday evening. ER could have easily killed them early Fri. morning while they were still sleeping. That would have given him the apt. to himself all day Friday, to plan for his evening massacre. I don't want my mind to go there, but this monster was capable of anything :furious:

That's what I think as well. He could have killed them early in the morning, while they were still sleeping. Did anybody see them during the day?

 

[mrsobrien]

Oooooomg, puahate is in deep crap right now! :-O

And seriously, the parents must have anticipated the raids, that's par for the course in cases like this.

5/26/14: California shooting: Police investigating [ER] killing spree
'worried about copycat attacks'

... Officers took computer equipment, notes, files and disks from the
homes of Elliot’s separated parents [P & LC] in West Hills, California.

A police source said: “The police raids were a decision to make sure that
Elliot’s steps in the last few years could be traced, especially online.

... “The family were not told of the raids.

“Relations between the police and the family are very tense at the moment.

“Things were soured when the family went public accusing the police of
not doing enough to intervene in their son’s life.” ...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/california-shooting-police-investigating-elliot-3610929

 

[SStarr33]

Santa Barbara rampage: San Jose victim posthumously cleared of 'candle theft'
http://www.contracostatimes.com/new...-rampage-san-jose-victim-posthumously-cleared

This is so lame, I can't even believe they are making a big deal out of it. From the article:

Dudley said she was willing to go as far as asking the governor to issue Hong a pardon and explored that option before determining she could clear Hong's record locally.

What a joke.

 

[Quester]

After subduing the roommates, ER then could have lured GC over by texting, using the cellphones of the roommates.

 

[SStarr33]

If you have a teenager, young adult in the house, they often leave their computer on..........for days if no one tells them they're using up electricity.
We don't know just how far away this young man lived from ER's apartment, it might have been a block? GC might have believed he was only going to be there for a few moments, and depending on when he actually left his place, he may have had no need for his cell phone.

I'm no teen and my computer is never turned off.

 

[Quester]

From his FB, GC was a skateboarder, long board, so he probably used that as his transportation from on-campus dorm to ER's apt.

 

[BigCat]

I'm currently re-reading Christopher Lasch's The Culture of Narcissism. Lasch wrote before the time when political and social commentators had to belong to either Team Fox News or Team MSNBC. He wrote thoughtfully nuanced works on the state of our culture.

The Culture of Narcissism: American Life in an Age of Diminishing Expectations: Christopher Lasch: 9780393307382: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WldS%2BFpIL.@@AMEPARAM@@51WldS%2BFpIL

IMO, his greatest insight was to recognize the increasing emergence of the therapeutic, bureaucratic state (Narcissism was published in 1979). He believed both therapy and bureaucracy tend to frustrate individual initiative and accountability. The end result, culturally, is to foster increased dependence, helplessness, and narcissism ("Notwithstanding his occasional illusions of omnipotence, the narcissist depends on others to validate his self-esteem").

After reading ER's manifesto, what struck me was his overwhelming sense of helplessness. He expected beautiful blondes to be attracted to him; yet, he never considered that he had to approach them first. He thought he could acquire wealth by playing the lottery; he never considered education, hard work, and thrift as a means to that end. He had a grandiose sense of self that needed to be validated by others; yet, he had accomplished nothing and was completely asocial. Needless to say, such a paralyzing condition is frustrating. He was bitter, angry and resentful, and we know how it all ended.

But there is no one to blame for what happened. No one is responsible. ER was sick (Therapy says). The cops followed the proper procedures (Bureaucracy says). The parents -- can't blame them. They put him in therapy since he was 7. Can't blame the therapists ("we can't make them take their medicine"). It was all unavoidable, and it will happen again without more therapy and bureaucracy (says Therapy and Bureaucracy).

Well, that's Lasch's critique of our culture. A very simplified critique. It's certainly more complex than I presented. I offer it as a different point of view. Unfortunately, his pessimism strikes a chord with me at times. I have my doubts if therapy and bureaucracy are sufficient replacements for self-reliance, personal accountability, family, religion, and community.

JMO