Found Deceased CA - Fang Jin, 47, flew to LA from China, train to Palm Springs, Morongo Basin, 21 Jul 2023, w/ John Root Fitzpatrick, 55, (fnd dec.), 30 Jul ‘23 #3

  • #121
  • #122
This was brought up earlier but I think may have been lost in some of the back-and-forth discussion.

In addition to Pinyon Wash which is on the northeast of Harper Flat, there's also Pinyon Mountain Road which lies to the south. It's a one-way 4x4 trail, that is considered to be a challenging drive. Especially the section known as Pinyon Drop-off, aka Heart Attack Hill. Here's the best map I could find of the road and surrounding area.
hf.jpg


I wonder if JRF tried driving down this road and something went wrong. Later rains could have washed the truck into the wash and JRF's body into Harper Canyon. Or maybe it's even possible that the truck was found near Pinyon Drop-off, not Pinyon Wash, but the similar names gave rise to confusion over its location. (I know some reporting mentioned the truck was found in Harper Flat.)
 
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  • #123
I finally got it - thank you for your patience. Is the road in question Pinyon Wash Road?
I'm afraid I don't know the roads of the area well enough to be sure of the names. If that's the road leading up to Pinyon Wash (as the name suggests) I think that is the road I've been assuming JRF drove up. But @tvscum's post (Link) showing the fence across the road seems to be a different road further south-west, so now I'm not sure.

I've assumed, perhaps mistakenly, that the fence extends quite some way around Harper Flat. But if the fence is only in a few strategic places and the truck was indeed caught in the fence, that really narrows down where the truck was found.
 
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  • #124
This was brought up earlier but I think may have been lost in some of the back-and-forth discussion.

In addition to Pinyon Wash which is on the northeast of Harper Flat, there's also Pinyon Mountain Road which lies to the south. It's a one-way 4x4 trail, that is considered to be a challenging drive. Especially the section known as Pinyon Drop-off, aka Heart Attack Hill. Here's the best map I could find of the road and surrounding area.
View attachment 456544

I wonder if JRF tried driving down this road and something went wrong. Later rains could have washed the truck into the wash and JRF's body into Harper Canyon. Or maybe it's even possible that the truck was found near Pinyon Drop-off, not Pinyon Wash, but the similar names gave rise to confusion over its location. (I know some reporting mentioned the truck was found in Harper Flat.)

This is a really good point because I think I have been mistaking/muddling the two roads. If the truck went up Pinyon MOUNTAIN Road it could have been caught up in the substantial run-off from Whale Peak during Hilary.

It still bothers me that nobody reported seeing the truck until after Hilary. I suppose it's possible it was seen and nobody reported it. We also don't know exactly when it was found, which would be helpful.
 
  • #125
This is a really good point because I think I have been mistaking/muddling the two roads. If the truck went up Pinyon MOUNTAIN Road it could have been caught up in the substantial run-off from Whale Peak during Hilary.

It still bothers me that nobody reported seeing the truck until after Hilary. I suppose it's possible it was seen and nobody reported it. We also don't know exactly when it was found, which would be helpful.
But we really don't know who reported the truck to LE or when. Or if it was Park staff found it, perhaps checking for damage after the storm.

We also don't know how much LE/Park staff looked for it when their disappearance was first reported.

It seems to me, since that was their reported destination, authorities would have checked at least the roads, in case they'd had a breakdown. Surely they wouldn't just ignore that possibility.

JMO
 
  • #126
But we really don't know who reported the truck to LE or when. Or if it was Park staff found it, perhaps checking for damage after the storm.

We also don't know how much LE/Park staff looked for it when their disappearance was first reported.

It seems to me, since that was their reported destination, authorities would have checked at least the roads, in case they'd had a breakdown. Surely they wouldn't just ignore that possibility.

JMO

There's no way they could have done body recovery without "checking the roads." HIghway 78 is the only paved road in this story. It is driven by rangers and hundreds or thousands of park visitors daily. There are only 2 roads that branch off from 78 and go toward Harper Flat. Both are dirt roads. The hiker that found the body had to have taken one of those. Park Rangers have surely driven these fairly short roads. They had to send people up those roads to retrieve the body and inspect the truck (which apparently came up Pinyon Wash Road). The person who found the body has posted about it elsewhere (not many extra details, really). The persons who found the truck have posted online as well.

What do you mean by "reported destination"?

We know that by July 24, a ranger in Anza-Borrego was investigating pings from a phone belonging to JRF, which can only be done as part of an investigation (getting the phone's identifying number is necessary).

Neither JF or JRF ever said anything about where they intended to go next, as far as I know.

At any rate, I believe the dirt roads that lead up to where the truck was found are 1) devoid of any place a car could be hidden and partly visible from the highway; 2) were used by park personnel to go up and take a look at the truck and the skeleton; 3) driven multiple times by multiple persons in the course of this investigation - we're talking just 7-8 miles of passable dirt road.

There are no other roads that I know of. Why do you think LE could ignore them? Surely the people who found the truck and the body had to use at least one of those dirt roads; any sane LE person who finds a skeleton is going to look at ways that the truck could get there (and I don't think it's possible to know which of the two roads branching from 78 were used - so of course they checked both).

I bet someone has been up there very frequently, perhaps teams of people, documenting and pondering what happened.

IMO.
 
  • #127
This is a really good point because I think I have been mistaking/muddling the two roads. If the truck went up Pinyon MOUNTAIN Road it could have been caught up in the substantial run-off from Whale Peak during Hilary.

It still bothers me that nobody reported seeing the truck until after Hilary. I suppose it's possible it was seen and nobody reported it. We also don't know exactly when it was found, which would be helpful.

This makes me think that the truck may very well have been undamaged up until Hillary (which passed through Anza-Borrego closer to August 22, IIRC).

Almost everyone who goes up that way is going on a day hike. Most people are not going to come back to the same place the next day and take the same day hike. So, on any given day, seeing a blue truck parked at the end of a service road near about 5 trail heads...isn't going to make anyone report anything. If the same person saw the same truck day after day, I still think they'd wait 2-3 days before reporting (people do camp out there - but in the heat, rarely for more than 1-2 nights, too much water has to be carried).

I doubt rangers go up their regularly (maybe once a week, maybe less).

I don't report trucks that I see parked at nature spots. I would report a damaged truck that appeared to be inoperable, though. I do think the amount of run-off from WHale Peak and other higher points is very important. If the truck was once parked away from the fence, at the bottom of a small draw or gully (but still on relatively flat, slightly downward sloping land, the rains could have lifted and pushed it into the fence, pummeling it with rocks and scraping it up pretty good.

But a perfectly normal truck parked at a trailhead? Why would anyone report that?

IMO.
 
  • #128
But we really don't know who reported the truck to LE or when. Or if it was Park staff found it, perhaps checking for damage after the storm.

We also don't know how much LE/Park staff looked for it when their disappearance was first reported.

It seems to me, since that was their reported destination, authorities would have checked at least the roads, in case they'd had a breakdown. Surely they wouldn't just ignore that possibility.

JMO

That's kind of what I was getting at. Apologies if I wasn't clear.

If it's true the truck was found wrecked against a fence, it suggests the storm may have done some damage. But where was it prior to that? If nobody saw the truck before the storm I don't see how it could have been parked on the road. IMO it must have been somewhere out of sight.

Deliberately hidden? Two people wanting some privacy? Sightseeing up on the ridges? So many possibilities.
 
  • #129
This makes me think that the truck may very well have been undamaged up until Hillary (which passed through Anza-Borrego closer to August 22, IIRC).

Almost everyone who goes up that way is going on a day hike. Most people are not going to come back to the same place the next day and take the same day hike. So, on any given day, seeing a blue truck parked at the end of a service road near about 5 trail heads...isn't going to make anyone report anything. If the same person saw the same truck day after day, I still think they'd wait 2-3 days before reporting (people do camp out there - but in the heat, rarely for more than 1-2 nights, too much water has to be carried).

I doubt rangers go up their regularly (maybe once a week, maybe less).

I don't report trucks that I see parked at nature spots. I would report a damaged truck that appeared to be inoperable, though. I do think the amount of run-off from WHale Peak and other higher points is very important. If the truck was once parked away from the fence, at the bottom of a small draw or gully (but still on relatively flat, slightly downward sloping land, the rains could have lifted and pushed it into the fence, pummeling it with rocks and scraping it up pretty good.

But a perfectly normal truck parked at a trailhead? Why would anyone report that?

IMO.
Good point.

Also, I've forgotten when it was that LE actually announced they were searching for JF, JRF and JRF's blue truck. If nobody knew to be on the lookout for it, they probably wouldn't report seeing it.
 
  • #130
I'm afraid I don't know the roads of the area well enough to be sure of the names. If that's the road leading up to Pinyon Wash (as the name suggests) I think that is the road I've been assuming JRF drove up. But @tvscum's post (Link) showing the fence across the road seems to be a different road further south-west, so now I'm not sure.

I've assumed, perhaps mistakenly, that the fence extends quite some way around Harper Flat. But if the fence is only in a few strategic places and the truck was indeed caught in the fence, that really narrows down where the truck was found.

I've spent some time today looking at large numbers of pictures of people traveling up Pinyon Wash toward Harper Flat and it looks to me like the only way to Harper Flat was on a road-like part of the Flat, which was fairly narrow and had quite a bit of rocky land and quite a bit of pokey plants just off the road. I had mistakenly thought that the route into Harper Flat was a bit wider than that gouged out, narrow road that people are showing in their pictures.

I don't think they have fenced off the Flat to all comers, only to vehicles. That makes sense. Maybe the road is very bad up ahead. At any rate, the fence (as I understand it and from what hikers are reporting in their blogs) is a pinch point, easily gone around on food, but impassable on vehicle (as intended). There are tons of these all over our mountains here in SoCal (gates on roads that are designed to be passable by pedestrians). Many trailheads require parking at a pinch point/gate/fence and then walking onward (where it was once possible to drive). IOW, prohibiting vehicles into more delicate (and possibly dangerous) parts of the mountains is an ongoing thing.

I had assumed that JRF was able to drive into the Flat and near the Harper Canyon trailhead, but that now looks to be completely in error.

IMO, there's no way to hide a truck up that way. At all. Except for driving it off a cliff, but even so - the area is so barren, people are gonna see it. That truck was likely seen by many people - and I still am not understanding why people think it would have been reported.

Keep in mind that there's been no BOLO for that truck; it wasn't until JRF was found that San Diego papers picked up the story - and even then, 99% of San Diegans live far away from Pinyon Wash. Only a handful of intrepid people (mostly young adults) even go up there in July and August. I just don't understand why anyone would think that seeing an unwrecked truck (because it was not always wrecked) would cause anyone to report it.

Sounds to me that it was talked about on FB and reported to LE after it was discovered damaged. The FB page in question is permitted here, but I don't think individual comments in response to reporter's coverage are allowed. FirePhotoGirl is a blue check on Twitter and a photojournalist, so I believe her posts are allowed, which is where some of our information about the finding of the body has been coming from.
IMO.


Good point.

Also, I've forgotten when it was that LE actually announced they were searching for JF, JRF and JRF's blue truck. If nobody knew to be on the lookout for it, they probably wouldn't report seeing it.

This was the point I was trying to make. There was no announcement of a search, AFAIK. They were "voluntarily missing" up until the announcement of the finding of the body, IMO. No one was looking for the blue truck unless they daily followed SBCSO missing person bulletins or were people like ourselves - WE were looking at NAMUS, no one else in SoCal was - just a tiny handful of people even knew about this situation. We had a "ping in Julian" and a sighting in Thermal - that's it. And I am still seeing a lot of those blue Tacomas, now that I'm looking for them (even though I should stop).

IMO.
 
  • #131
But we really don't know who reported the truck to LE or when. Or if it was Park staff found it, perhaps checking for damage after the storm.

We also don't know how much LE/Park staff looked for it when their disappearance was first reported.

It seems to me, since that was their reported destination, authorities would have checked at least the roads, in case they'd had a breakdown. Surely they wouldn't just ignore that possibility.

JMO

I have no direct experience with this park. None.

After a storm of this size, would aircraft or drone fly-overs be used to look for stranded campers or begin assessment of damages?

If so, might the truck may have been located in this way, then a crew sent out?

jmho ymmv lrr
 
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  • #132
I don't see how Anza-Borrego would have even been on LE radar to search for the missing pair. It's in San Diego County, a separate jurisdiction. The pair's disappearance hardly even made Southern California news af the end of July. I don't think there was a search happening for them in that vicinity.
 
  • #133
So based on what I understand of the roads and locations, I've put this together using a Google Maps image. Someone please correct me if I've mistaken anything.

Although this is a large area and difficult to search, to me it seems to have quite clear delineation. Everything seems to fall within the Pinyon Wash/Harper Canyon/Route 78 area. The items that have been found also seem to be exactly where the run-off from the mountains would be expected to wash them.

Harper Canyon.jpg
 
  • #134
I don't see how Anza-Borrego would have even been on LE radar to search for the missing pair. It's in San Diego County, a separate jurisdiction. The pair's disappearance hardly even made Southern California news af the end of July. I don't think there was a search happening for them in that vicinity.
LE found out JRF's phone had pinged near Julian pretty early in the investigation. I would expect the surrounding area to have been on their radar as soon as they discovered that.
 
  • #135
LE found out JRF's phone had pinged near Julian pretty early in the investigation. I would expect the surrounding area to have been on their radar as soon as they discovered that.

I'm sure it was. It's just a huge surrounding area and the entire LE population of the region is very small. Does Julian even have a police department? Or is it SDCSO?

A very hard area to search. And there was no widespread attempt to get the word out about the truck. LE probably felt they had good reasons not to make everyone with a blue Tacoma a suspicious person in SoCal.

IMO
 
  • #136
I'm sure it was. It's just a huge surrounding area and the entire LE population of the region is very small. Does Julian even have a police department? Or is it SDCSO?

A very hard area to search. And there was no widespread attempt to get the word out about the truck. LE probably felt they had good reasons not to make everyone with a blue Tacoma a suspicious person in SoCal.

IMO
I completely agree.

When something happens, especially if it happens to someone you know and care about, it's understandable to think not enough is being done. And sadly, some LE agencies don't do everything they can. But in the vast majority of cases the resources simply can't meet the demand.

With the terrain in these areas of SoCal you could have 10,000 people searching 24/7 and still not find anything.
 
  • #137
Just bringing up the Mickey Guidry case that happened in this exact area back in 2009. I know someone posted about it previously. He stole his parents Jeep Grand Cherokee and went to visit friends camping near HWY 78 in Ocotillo Wells. The Jeep was found badly damaged, not drivable, and abandoned with his belongings in it. It is believed he went off-road up Fish Creek Wash and the Jeep finally became inoperable in the Harper Flat area where it was left stuck. The front bumper was torn off, rear spare tire cover fell off, and one of the tires had shredded to the rim and was sunk into the sand. His mom posted the below map showing where the Jeep was found, and some other items that had fallen off the Jeep. All in the same area as JRF truck may have been. No trace of him was ever found until 4/2022, 13 years later, despite numerous searches when he disappeared. Hikers found his clothes/shoes around the entrance of Harper Canyon, very close to where JRF was found. They believed when he got lost and stuck, he was heading into Harper Canyon trying to get back to HWY 78. He never made it and has been missing since, with no remains recovered. Looking at the map for his case and this case shows many similarities. All coincidence, but maybe further searches in this area can hopefully turn up more evidence for both cases.
 

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  • #138
Honestly tho...if the situation was reversed and we found her body and not his... We'd feel 100% that he murdered her and was on the run. Has anyone considered that the opposite happened? Admittedly there is nothing to suggest this...but I just wanted to mention the perhaps double standard. IMO we are certainly looking at a murder suicide. Hope they find her soon. She seemed like a great person.
 
  • #139
Honestly tho...if the situation was reversed and we found her body and not his... We'd feel 100% that he murdered her and was on the run. Has anyone considered that the opposite happened? Admittedly there is nothing to suggest this...but I just wanted to mention the perhaps double standard. IMO we are certainly looking at a murder suicide. Hope they find her soon. She seemed like a great person.

I would not be 100% that he murdered her, I'd still have a Bad Actor theory on my list.

However, statistically and in terms of how LE allocates resources or develops investigative theories, men do more murdering than women do. When men are murdered, it's usually NOT a woman who does it - it's more likely to be male-on-male. Do you not think probabilities and past social experience should be factored in?

It's not a double standard if one sex commits far more murders than the other. Double standard means apply two different standards regardless of the facts in front of a person. This would not be a double standard if I were to say, JRF is dead (and, btw, I do consider the fact that it's POSSIBLE that Fang could have harmed him - but, wouldn't you agree, highly unlikely? I mean, he's dead. There's no proof that she, too, is not alive - so sure, she COULD have killed him.

But the probabilities are quite low. And the facts of the case also start to form a pattern. Her phone goes dark first. His continues to go about (in the very area where he is found). Her stuff (including all her money) is still as his home.

However, if it is a stranger who harmed both of them (POSSIBLE), do you think it's more likely to be men/a man or do you think women/a woman are as likely to have killed two people out in the desert? Do you think that by me using probabilities from more than 150 years of gathering modern crime stats...that it's wrong to use what we know about the history of crime?

Women who are murdered are mostly murdered by men. Men who are murdered are mostly murdered by men. These are the facts - I am using those facts, and not any kind of moral judgment. In fact, I think we need to address the systemic reasons why these are the facts - including knowledge of biology.

IMO.

BTW, murder-suicide is also my best guess. But I"m not just guessing. I am using the above-stated algorithms. It's simply most likely. Further, the two were trying to cohabitate in an international relationship; they met by online sources; they did not know each other well; they were in the first WEEK of their relationship, and he has a long record of being reported to police for a variety of assaults and his last wife took out a restraining order. He may not have a lot of convictions, but the police reports and the injuries of his alleged victims are still there. And he pleaded GUILTY to the beating of the man to whom he delivered food, even though the plea and the charges were dropped.

OTOH, if her body had been found and he was no where in evidence, there's another distinction. He's a US Citizen and a local. How could he lose track of her and not be knowledgeable about how she disappeared? She was not a local - how would she manage to stay below LE radar as a Chinese national without her cash? And not using her credit cards, according to our VI?

Why do you think those of us who analyze the case in this way are somehow guilty of sexism and a double standard?

If her body was found, statistically, he'd be the most likely suspect. But is Fang actually the person who last saw JRF alive? Wasn't he likely in Thermal? If instead, someone else was driving his truck - then that person would be my next new subject. But JRF's phone travels in the same direction and pings off of Julian. So did this Bad Actor continue to use JRF's phone for a couple of days? Possible.

But if she had been found deceased, I would have Bad Actor and JRF on my radar. Statistically, it's more likely to be JRF.

He's found deceased (and skeletonized, so dead for a while). In a remote area that it's unlikely a Chinese visitor would even know about. So either a Bad Actor killed both of them, or he is somehow involved in getting himself to that location. He was with his truck. To think that JF would murder him in that remote location and take off without the truck prior to the hurricane is bizarre. She would be navigating several miles of desert and then what? Why didn't she take the truck? Where could she even hide without money, credit cards or cash?

Think about the actual facts. We are not discussing JRF as a potential bad actor for no reason. He's clearly the one person most associated with her in the US. If she killed him...then maybe she did commit suicide. It's possible. Very unlikely. And those who organize resources for crime investigation do use probabilities - not because of bias, but because of history.

IMO.
 
  • #140
Ok in this case maybe we need to send a huge group of Chinese volunteers to this park to help searching the remains of Fang or prove of data that can explain why John and his car were found in that region..... Or we put it into media that authorities are blocking an International Search operation ???
Before you do that, I would contact the Park Services and see if you can get a waiver or special permit for drone usage. There are always exceptions to the rules. Usually just explaining the circumstances, that it is dangerous to search on foot, would be enough to allow an exception for a licensed drone pilot to do a grid search.
 

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