CA - Hannah,16,Devonte,15,&Ciera Hart,12 (fnd deceased),Mendocino Cty,26 Mar 2018 #5

[Lilibet]

A couple of thoughts:
ETA: Tricia posted about race while I was writing. I don’t intend this post as an argument. I think we are in agreement.

Jen told the photographer “He has a big heart” to explain his tears. She also talked (on FB?) about Devonte confronting his fears at this demonstration. What kind of parent goes to or stays at an event that is clearly emotionally upsetting to one of their children? What kind of parent doesn’t provide comfort and safety for their children? If a child fears dogs, you don’t force them to go near dogs, and if they are crying you know you need to take care of them and console them. They used Devonte’s fears and tears for their own selfish agenda.

And this ties in with my second thought. This is all about race IMO (I’m not talking about racism). These two women would have gone unnoticed at this demonstration or any festival if their adopted children were white. But they wanted to be noticed, regardless of the effect on their children. No one would have photographed a white child hugging a policeman. No one would have attached a larger feel-good meaning to a white child hugging a policeman. It certainly wouldn’t have gone viral in any case.The Oregonian commentator cited upthread makes a valid point about Devonte being symbolic because of his color. These women used the color of their adopted children for attention and admiration and victimhood...to fill their own emptiness. And then they killed them, rather than being exposed for what they had done to these precious children.

What a perversion and slap in the face to the majority of people who adopt children of color for all the right reasons!

JMO, MOO, etc.

 

[gitana1]

Here's a perfect example of exploiting these kids:

:facepalm:


Edit: I mean, don't get me wrong, those boys were about the cutest things on this god's green earth. But whose idea was it to do that to their hair?

They turned them into a zebra and a leopard. Due to the history of how black people have been compared to animals by racists, this was a tone deaf move.

 

[Doghairrules]

Nyquil can show up on a BAC, but you'd have to drink an awful lot of it to get to those levels. Not saying that she couldn't have, just that it would take a lot.

And I’m the opposite of professional drinker, but I can’t imagine drinking enough NyQuil to have that high of a bac. It doesn’t taste good!!!

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

This is my very first post. I've read so much about this case and just need to make my one comment. When my daughter was 8 yr old I wanted to kill her. Thought about it all the time. Knew I was crazy so went to a psychiatrist. She told me I wasn't crazy, all moms want to kill their kids sometimes. I figured she was crazy, so I went to a therapist. That's where I learned after months of therapy I had repressed childhood memories of sexual abuse which were later validated by other children abused by my father. So the point is, I can't know WHY these women did the things they did, but I do know that childhood abuse in many cases causes those who grow up to abuse children. We try not to, we think we're being better parents, but when abuse goes untreated, we unconsciously or consciously replay the whole scenario. I starved my child, I took her to doctors for nonexistent conditions, and then I wanted to kill her. Thank god and 11 therapists later, my daughter is grown, healthy, loving-- and I'm no longer crazy. So if you want to know why any mother does something crazy, it's because crazy was done to her. BUT there is no excuse when you are the child of crazy. There is no explanation big enough, no forgiveness worthy. This case breaks my heart all over again. That no one saw how wrong it all was.

 

[katydid23]

They turned them into a zebra and a leopard. Due to the history of how black people have been compared to animals by racists, this was a tone deaf move.

One of my daughter's best friends has half of her hair shaved , in a cheetah pattern, just like that. The other side is long.

She has also hah it shaved in zebra pattern, and had words or symbols shaved. She loves it and gets lots of compliments. She is African American and no one has said it is inappropriate to shave it that way.

I am not sure we can point to the women and accuse them of anything nefarious here...the boys may have chosen it themselves at the barber shop. It is a common hair adornment.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/494973815266981900/

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/402227810440092878/

 

[SarahW]

Nyquil can show up on a BAC, but you'd have to drink an awful lot of it to get to those levels. Not saying that she couldn't have, just that it would take a lot.

It's true, I think NyQuil is about 10% ETOH if that (a bit less than most wine, stronger than beer.) I think Listerine is more than 50 problems of, though I presume they examined stomach contents. She strikes me as more of a spirits gal though. I brought it up before but those so funny ha ha precocious poses of the kids with wine goblets and martini glasses, and the (invented or real) teasing conversation about whiskey in the hot chocolate thermos that Jen posted to Facebook made me wonder about her drinking.

 

[gitana1]

I'm going to let it be known here that in general, I have no problem at all with people taking kids to these festivals as long as they parent appropriately. They are set up for family camping and kids activities. Most people, read not Jen and Sarah Hart, wouldn't limit their children's entire social interactions to the time spent at these festivals. Most people allow their children to leave the house and have friends when they're not at a hippie festival.

Agreed.

Sure as long as people aren’t getting high doing drugs, getting rowdy where cops are arresting people and no half naked people with their breast, bare rear ends and genatalia are exposed. Kids still have eyes.

There are many different attitudes about nudity and children's exposure to it. And people are free to parent their children accordingly, within the limits of the law. Our nation is rooted in a Puritan ethic that sees the human body, as sinful and something to be kept secret. But not every culture feels that way and not every American feels that way.

I was exposed to naked adults as a kid. Just casually sleeping naked or strolling along. It just made me and my brothers giggle. No trauma and no negative effect for me. I think as long as no one is trying to flash a kid for sexual purposes and the adults don;t freak out and act insane at the possibility that their kid might catch a glance of a naked butt, kids will not be traumatized by that.

I respect that some parents do not want their little kids to see naked adults. That's acceptable but it's just differences in attitudes.

 

[Lilibet]

This is my very first post. I've read so much about this case and just need to make my one comment. When my daughter was 8 yr old I wanted to kill her. Thought about it all the time. Knew I was crazy so went to a psychiatrist. She told me I wasn't crazy, all moms want to kill their kids sometimes. I figured she was crazy, so I went to a therapist. That's where I learned after months of therapy I had repressed childhood memories of sexual abuse which were later validated by other children abused by my father. So the point is, I can't know WHY these women did the things they did, but I do know that childhood abuse in many cases causes those who grow up to abuse children. We try not to, we think we're being better parents, but when abuse goes untreated, we unconsciously or consciously replay the whole scenario. I starved my child, I took her to doctors for nonexistent conditions, and then I wanted to kill her. Thank god and 11 therapists later, my daughter is grown, healthy, loving-- and I'm no longer crazy. So if you want to know why any mother does something crazy, it's because crazy was done to her. BUT there is no excuse when you are the child of crazy. There is no explanation big enough, no forgiveness worthy. This case breaks my heart all over again. That no one saw how wrong it all was.

BBM

Welcome and thank you for this heartbreaking, but victorious post, MrsEmmaPeel. I’m so glad you persisted and received help. Big hugs! :heartbeat: It’s tragic that these two women didn’t have enough insight to seek whatever help they needed in time to save these beautiful children. Unlike you, their egos drowned out any trace of humility.

 

[gitana1]

Occupy camps are no place for kids. Seriously.

I saw kids at Occupy camps in Portland. It was great. Well run. Efficient. Lots of activities for the kids. Dancing. Exposure to activism in a well-organized setting. I disagree with you. But these people exploited their kids for attention and accolades which is different than bringing kids out of a sincere belief in exposing them to activism.

 

[gitana1]

This one? I thought the same if so...

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ETA link: http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2018/04/deadly_hart_family_crash_may_h.html

That's not the shape of most bruises form a fist or whatever. I have seen zero evidence that Sarah was abused and not totally complicit in the abuse and neglect of her children. In fact, I've seen the opposite. She participated in it and the cover up according to two witnesses. I'm not sure why people are intent in seeing her as a victim.

 

[mtnlites]

And I’m the opposite of professional drinker, but I can’t imagine drinking enough NyQuil to have that high of a bac. It doesn’t taste good!!!

Me either. NyQuil seems to be particularly nasty. It's one of the few things that I have trouble drinking and keeping down.

 

[mtnlites]

That's not the shape of most bruises form a fist or whatever. I have seen zero evidence that Sarah was abused and not totally complicit in the abuse and neglect of her children. In fact, I've seen the opposite. She participated in it and the cover up according to two witnesses. I'm not sure why people are intent in seeing her as a victim.

I'm not seeing anything to that nature, either. (To me, that spot on her face could even be simple natural discoloration.) I can't remember how the "Sarah as the victim" first started but I am still having trouble understanding that narrative.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Agreed.



There are many different attitudes about nudity and children's exposure to it. And people are free to parent their children accordingly, within the limits of the law. Our nation is rooted in a Puritan ethic that sees the human body, as sinful and something to be kept secret. But not every culture feels that way and not every American feels that way.

I was exposed to naked adults as a kid. Just casually sleeping naked or strolling along. It just made me and my brothers giggle. No trauma and no negative effect for me. I think as long as no one is trying to flash a kid for sexual purposes and the adults don;t freak out and act insane at the possibility that their kid might catch a glance of a naked butt, kids will not be traumatized by that.

I respect that some parents do not want their little kids to see naked adults. That's acceptable but it's just differences in attitudes.

I know it exists, but don't know of any friends, aquaintenses, in the USA who was raised with nudity. Certainly never in front of little kids.

There are, I know countries, like in Scandinavia who feel nudity and sex as opposed to violence is more healthy...

This was surely the case when I stayed In Copenhagen in the late 80's... Omg, was the reaction as I watched the TV!

Not sure about any of it, but I get the logic.

 

[Electric Sheep]

I'm curious as to what the long term plan was for this family. The oldest was 19 so the payments from the State of Texas must have already ceased for him. The youngest was 12, so within 6 years the parents would not be receiving any more payments for any of the kids. Yet the kids were not being prepared in any meaningful way for adult life, for earning a living, for being independent. How did the family plan to manage financially in the future, to pay the mortgage, to put food on the table? Was the plan for 8 adults to live on the salary of an assistant manager at Kohls?

 

[gitana1]

In this picture of Devonte Hart dated the 2013 Portland viral hug incident, you can see Jen Hart to the right of him. She's clearly not slim.

http://newyorkbeacon.com/heres-how-...rtedly-profited-from-adopting-black-children/


If you look up the photographer credited, you can see more public pictures of the protest event, including a photo I find particularly chilling of Devonte looking up at Jen with tears in his eyes. He looks frightened and appears to be receiving instruction. I presume this is just prior to the meeting with the policeman. I am beginning to think that those claiming that Devonte was pushed into a planned photo op are correct. JMO. The picture is displayed in the photographer's public portfolio gallery, but I cannot link it here without written permission.

Here's a link to the website and the photo stream. https://jansonnenmair.photoshelter.com/gallery/Devonte-Hart-Portland-Protest/G0000LfUrq7Yigog/

Yes, he looks terrified! I believe she was telling him he needed to "face his fears" or some nonsense. That photograph makes me so angry.

I read an opinion piece about it and it compared Devonte's very real, justified fear of police officers to being afraid of bears. Being afraid of bears keeps you alive. You don't go hug a bear because you're afraid of it.

I think Devonte knew how to perform for his parents. The photo stream shows him equally emotive during hugs with other people who are not LE. Previous video shows him acting the exact same way with the musician on stage.

The sense I get is that Devonte learned how to act emotively and cry on cue and appeal to the narcissism of his parents and perform the way they wanted to. It's self preservation. Children of personality disordered kids sometimes are quite good at this.

Oh I think he lived in fear of his parents for sure. But he was also super smart and knew how to give them what they wanted to avoid punishment or disfavor. At least until the end when he had to beg for food.

 

[gitana1]

I find this strange. Devonte was crying before the hug with the officer? Huh? There are a couple of other photos showing the interaction with the officer -one where it looks like they're shaking hands. There's nary a tear to be seen there, though. So, either Devonte turns from literally bawling to absolutely no trace of it, or the hand shake was before the hug, which was my initial thought on seeing it.

The problem there, though, is this: HE SURE CRIES A LOT. So, he's crying 10 minutes before the hug scene (according to the photographer), then again, 10 minutes later, during the hug. Again, it just doesn't seem right that the photo of the hand-shake would be after the crying --not the slightest trace of a tear. So, it must be before. Odd -crying. Stops crying. Crying again 10 minutes later. Really, really, crying.

Than, the crying in various videos at festivals, etc. Why do I think we're being conned here? Everything about what we see in the way of photos and videos is starting to look and feel very, very staged. (When the friend made a complaint about potential abuse, the response from the police/cps was that they thought the children had been "coached".) I'm starting to think just about everything in life for these children was coached. Including the crying. The laughing. The smiles. Everything.

Bingo.

 

[mtnlites]

I know it exists, but don't know of any friends, aquaintenses, in the USA who was raised with nudity. Certainly never in front of little kids.

There are, I know countries, like in Scandinavia who feel nudity and sex as opposed to violence is more healthy...

This was surely the case when I stayed In Copenhagen in the late 80's... Omg, was the reaction as I watched the TV!

Not sure about any of it, but I get the logic.

We're pretty open with nudity in our house. I was raised that way as well. I would MUCH rather have my kids exposed to nudity, and even sex, than violence in the media. We've tried to raise our kids with a mixture of "your body, your rules" and that nudity is natural and nothing to be ashamed of. In Europe, we've all been known to strip down on the beaches and in hotel saunas where nudity is allowed. We own a summer home with a private beach here in the US and we dress however we feel at the moment-which sometimes means without any clothes at all. While we would never let our kids run around naked in an inappropriate public setting (a store, a public park, etc.), we have zero problems with it in confined places-just as long as THEY are comfortable with it. The same for us. We also never taught our kids cutesy or funny names for body parts; they learned the proper names for them at very young ages. I was an artist's model for many years and he often passed on preliminary sketches that he did of me as gifts. When our kids have friends over, they usually include those (framed and highly cherished) pictures on their "grand tour." Sometimes the other kids are taken aback ("Dude, that's your mom and she's naked!") but, for the most part, they just shrug it off.

I'm an American from an extremely conservative part of the country and I'm still not sure why the identity of nudity makes so many squeamish.

 

[Aescwynn]

I know it exists, but don't know of any friends, aquaintenses, in the USA who was raised with nudity. Certainly never in front of little kids.

My husband and I, and all our parenting circle, were reasonably open with nudity in front of our kids, especially our little kids, tapering off the exposure as they got older. Why younger? Breastfeeding, bathing, family sleeping, etc could all be a lot simpler in an atmosphere of body positivity.

This has the added benefit of not having to deal with your little one embarrassing you in public at a pool if some poor woman has a wardrobe malfunction. (Edit: that's a joke)

We're Americans born in the 1960's who didn't have our son until our late 30's. We respect those who don't agree with how we raised him and ask the same.

 

[mtnlites]

Here's a link to the website and the photo stream. https://jansonnenmair.photoshelter.com/gallery/Devonte-Hart-Portland-Protest/G0000LfUrq7Yigog/



I think Devonte knew how to perform for his parents. The photo stream shows him equally emotive during hugs with other people who are not LE. Previous video shows him acting the exact same way with the musician on stage.

The sense I get is that Devonte learned how to act emotively and cry on cue and appeal to the narcissism of his parents and perform the way they wanted to. It's self preservation. Children of personality disordered kids sometimes are quite good at this.

Oh I think he lived in fear of his parents for sure. But he was also super smart and knew how to give them what they wanted to avoid punishment or disfavor. At least until the end when he had to beg for food.

I'm still not sure how I feel about any of this, but I wonder if Devonte's tears were out of relief-holding on to someone and getting affection, even a few seconds' worth, from someone who was showing him genuine kindness. I was bullied pretty badly in middle school and it really affected my self worth. At one point, however, I had to go to the hospital. As the anesthesiologist, nurse, and surgeon were preparing me, I suddenly broke into tears. They were being SO careful with me, treating me like I was a human being, that their kindness was almost too much. They thought I was crying because I was scared, but it was really because they were some of the first people to treat me as though I mattered.

 

[Eloise]

I'm not seeing anything to that nature, either. (To me, that spot on her face could even be simple natural discoloration.) I can't remember how the "Sarah as the victim" first started but I am still having trouble understanding that narrative.

I think the idea first arose because she was the one that took legal responsibility for the child abuse when all evidence is that Jen did it. Abuse doesn’t have to be physical. It also doesn’t mean she couldn’t have been abusive to the kids.


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