CA - Hannah,16,Devonte,15,&Ciera Hart,12 (fnd deceased),Mendocino Cty,26 Mar 2018 #5

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  • #841
We have no idea if these women did anything to keep their kids connected to their culture. We also don't have any evidence to suggest they withheld any connection to their past lives. We just don't know.

All we are trying to do is stop a discussion that will go nowhere and get everyone all upset. Every Single Time we try and have a discussion about race this is exactly what happens.

I don't think it's a secret what these women were trying to do. Whether it was with black kids, Hispanic kids, Guatemalan, kids it is obvious these women were trying to show they were great people to take on the challenge of raising all these older kids. In reality, these women were monsters because of the way they treated their kids.Their kids became the victims of their cruelty.

Other than the fact they chose African American kids rather than other minority children is really all that needs to be said about race. I hope I am not making things harder to understand. Discuss their motives in adopting older minority children. Hope this clears things up.

Tricia

Lee was spared.
Hannah said her parents were racist. 🤷🏾*♀️

I disagree that their selection choices is all that needs to be said about race. But I'll respect your preference as a moderator for us not to discuss it outside of any direct link from msm or leads directly pulled from within the case.

I understand that moderators are here to facilitate the discussion that happens here but is no way dictating what is relevant, prevalent or central to this case outside of this forum. With that frame of mind, I've been able to continue on this platform knowing that this is not the all be all for this case.




MOO*
 
  • #842
Keep in mind her reported BAC may be a cautious figure. Sampling for toxicology after death can get complicated depending on the state of the body. Her BAC may have been higher. I heard they were not able to test using the brain and I'm not sure if vitreous humor was available for cross checking. http://what-when-how.com/forensic-sciences/post-mortem/

Yeah and didn't they find them a couple days or a day or so after they died? Doesn't alcohol diminish quickly?
 
  • #843
Yeah and didn't they find them a couple days or a day or so after they died? Doesn't alcohol diminish quickly?

My understanding is that BAC is reliable for 48 hours post mortem as long as extreme heat is not involved.

The Harts were known to have left Ft. Bragg at 9 pm on Sunday and the vehicle was spotted on Monday around 3:40 pm, with Jen's body retrieved that afternoon.

Blood samples would thus have been reliable for BAC.
 
  • #844
This is my very first post. I've read so much about this case and just need to make my one comment. When my daughter was 8 yr old I wanted to kill her. Thought about it all the time. Knew I was crazy so went to a psychiatrist. She told me I wasn't crazy, all moms want to kill their kids sometimes. I figured she was crazy, so I went to a therapist. That's where I learned after months of therapy I had repressed childhood memories of sexual abuse which were later validated by other children abused by my father. So the point is, I can't know WHY these women did the things they did, but I do know that childhood abuse in many cases causes those who grow up to abuse children. We try not to, we think we're being better parents, but when abuse goes untreated, we unconsciously or consciously replay the whole scenario. I starved my child, I took her to doctors for nonexistent conditions, and then I wanted to kill her. Thank god and 11 therapists later, my daughter is grown, healthy, loving-- and I'm no longer crazy. So if you want to know why any mother does something crazy, it's because crazy was done to her. BUT there is no excuse when you are the child of crazy. There is no explanation big enough, no forgiveness worthy. This case breaks my heart all over again. That no one saw how wrong it all was.

MrsEmmaPeel, you are welcome here. Thank you for your profound and thought provoking post.
 
  • #845
One of my daughter's best friends has half of her hair shaved , in a cheetah pattern, just like that. The other side is long.

She has also hah it shaved in zebra pattern, and had words or symbols shaved. She loves it and gets lots of compliments. She is African American and no one has said it is inappropriate to shave it that way.

I am not sure we can point to the women and accuse them of anything nefarious here...the boys may have chosen it themselves at the barber shop. It is a common hair adornment.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/494973815266981900/

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/402227810440092878/

I disagree that it's common at all. One of the photos you linked to isn't of an animal design at all. The other is a grown adult choosing it. I see a theme with these kids. Objectified. Given what we know about the parents and the truth of what they were probably like behind closed doors, I am skeptical that the kids ever had a choice about anything in their lives. And I'm skeptical about the motivEs of the parents for any decision the parents made, at this point.

ETA: Let me clarify I don't think the haircut itself is "wrong".
 
  • #846
Today marks three weeks since the vehicle was spotted at the base of the cliff

Identification of a female body found near the crash site on April 7th is pending autopsy results.

LE has issued conflicting statements about investigation as far as whether the missing kids were in the car or not and how that affects the investigation- as in, looking for bodies in the water or searching for the kids (or their remains) on land, anywhere from Washington to California.

Does anyone have any idea how long this case will be kept open? And what kind of information should be released to the public when the next phase of the investigation takes place?

I know the sheriff said a few weeks ago that nothing was being held back from the media, but it sure doesn't seem that way to me.
 
  • #847
One of my daughter's best friends has half of her hair shaved , in a cheetah pattern, just like that. The other side is long.

She has also hah it shaved in zebra pattern, and had words or symbols shaved. She loves it and gets lots of compliments. She is African American and no one has said it is inappropriate to shave it that way.

I am not sure we can point to the women and accuse them of anything nefarious here...the boys may have chosen it themselves at the barber shop. It is a common hair adornment.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/494973815266981900/

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/402227810440092878/

I not African American but I think it looks pretty cool for anyone and can see why kids would like it. Kinda fun. Hair grows no biggie. How do they cut it like that? its pretty amazing what hairdressers can do.
 
  • #848
BBM

Welcome and thank you for this heartbreaking, but victorious post, MrsEmmaPeel. I’m so glad you persisted and received help. Big hugs! :heartbeat: It’s tragic that these two women didn’t have enough insight to seek whatever help they needed in time to save these beautiful children. Unlike you, their egos drowned out any trace of humility.

Your writing style is so beautiful. Damn.
 
  • #849
I disagree that it's common at all. One of the photos you linked to isn't of an animal design at all. The other is a grown adult choosing it. I see a theme with these kids. Objectified. Given what we know about the parents and the truth of what they were probably like behind closed doors, I am skeptical that the kids ever had a choice about anything in their lives. And I'm skeptical about the motivEs of the parents for any decision the parents made, at this point.

ETA: Let me clarify I don't think the haircut itself is "wrong".

The boys look pretty happy with their haircuts. And I know that some barbershops have the 'menu' of shaved hair designs available for customers to choose. How do we know that the moms chose those designs, and did so because they were 'animal' designs and they wanted to humiliate their young adoptees?

For all we know, the boys picked the designs themselves because they thought they were cool. As you pointed out, adult males have chosen this same shaved hair design, including Nick Cannon and Kanye West. So it would not be surprising if the boys chose it as well.

I am just saying that we seem to be finding deep nefarious motives about every single thing ---and sometimes a haircut is just a haircut. It doesn't have to be objectified or racist or evil. Plenty of people, African Americans included, have chosen to have animal prints shaved in their hair as a design. Why would they do so if it had some horrible, demeaning meaning behind it?



https://hairstyleonpoint.com/10-insanely-cool-haircut-designs/


https://www.google.com/imgres?imgur..._aAhWupFkKHbcVCYEQMwj7ASg7MDs&iact=mrc&uact=8
 
  • #850
I feel sympathy for anyone who suffers from mental illness. I am not going to internet diagnosis either woman but, from their actions, it doesn't seem that they were mentally stable and healthy. So yes, I feel sorry for them. I am also waiting on more official word from LE or medical professionals before passing too much judgment. So much of what we've had so far has been anecdotal information but hasn't necessarily been corroborated by anyone with a professional opinion. Just because I am reserving too much judgment for now, and because I do have sympathy for the women, does NOT mean that I think they were justified in their actions.

Amen and further, I'd argue that NO ONE does something like this without being mentally ill. Jeffrey Dahmer was a clinical psychopath. Doesn't justify what he did AT ALL, but it does mean it was largely out of his control. He hated what he did and tried to stop it, but couldn't, much like someone addicted to heroin. Neurological illness is a terrifying disease.
 
  • #851
  • #852
One of their friends was surprised Jen had alcohol in her system that Jen and Sarah were not drinkers even when they ordered Pizza they ordered Pepsi. It could mean one or both were alcoholics staying sober or they just didn’t like to drink or Jen was a closet drinker.

I wonder, when people say "friends," are these "real life" friends, or online friends? It seems they isolated quite a lot except for the concerts and protests. Did these people actually know them in their everyday lives? I wonder.
 
  • #853
There are maybe 8 people in that car. Sleeping in the car and then going for more long long hours of driving to go,home? Sleeping in an exposed wayside scenic spot where anyone can stop at look,at,you?

I do not get why Sarah would go along with this plan.

It's dark, right? I don't get the impression people drive on that highway much if they're not looking at the scenery. It seems *ideally* secluded, in my opinion.

I would guess that Sarah thought, "We're heading south to who-knows-where, getting some sleep on the side of the highway with no one around seems the only safe way to spend the night without being spotted ..." I just don't see why this would seem like a bad idea to her if she doesn't know Jen's intentions.
 
  • #854
I wonder, when people say "friends," are these "real life" friends, or online friends? It seems they isolated quite a lot except for the concerts and protests. Did these people actually know them in their everyday lives? I wonder.

I have a feeling Jen and Sarah were very careful and particular about what they let their friends see most of the time. I would not be surprised if many of their IRL friends saw an edited version of the Hart’s most of the time they were together. Sure, some people have reported a few red flags and aggressive behavior, but I get the vibe that for the most part, Jen and Sarah put on a carefully crafted show. The neighbors said only once they saw a car in their driveway that didn’t belong to Sarah or Jen. I think most interactions with friends were in settings such as concerts, festivals, protests, hiking, camping, etc.
 
  • #855
Here's a link to the website and the photo stream. https://jansonnenmair.photoshelter.com/gallery/Devonte-Hart-Portland-Protest/G0000LfUrq7Yigog/



I think Devonte knew how to perform for his parents. The photo stream shows him equally emotive during hugs with other people who are not LE. Previous video shows him acting the exact same way with the musician on stage.

The sense I get is that Devonte learned how to act emotively and cry on cue and appeal to the narcissism of his parents and perform the way they wanted to. It's self preservation. Children of personality disordered kids sometimes are quite good at this.

Oh I think he lived in fear of his parents for sure. But he was also super smart and knew how to give them what they wanted to avoid punishment or disfavor. At least until the end when he had to beg for food.

Wow that poor child looks terrified and I’m mortified she would force him to do that.
 
  • #856
Amen and further, I'd argue that NO ONE does something like this without being mentally ill. Jeffrey Dahmer was a clinical psychopath. Doesn't justify what he did AT ALL, but it does mean it was largely out of his control. He hated what he did and tried to stop it, but couldn't, much like someone addicted to heroin. Neurological illness is a terrifying disease.

I don’t disagree about mental illness being terrifying, and it’s so often difficult to treat. I do believe, however, that some people do awful things for their own gratification, not because of true mental illness. The courts have a very narrow definition of mental illness in determining guilt. A person is not considered mentally ill unless it’s determined that they don’t know that they are doing wrong. So, legally speaking, these two didn’t qualify. Medically, we don’t know. But if one or both of them was mentally ill, they had signals that they needed help when abuse was first reported. Instead, they pulled kids out of school and eventually left the state...more than once. Unlike MrsEmmaPeel, they didn’t try to get help for their impulses and keep trying until something worked. One can be mentally ill and humble. Hubris is not diagnosed as mental illness...yet. :)

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/.../201411/does-your-boss-suffer-hubris-syndrome

http://www.clinmed.rcpjournal.org/content/8/4/428.full.pdf
 
  • #857
We're pretty open with nudity in our house. I was raised that way as well. I would MUCH rather have my kids exposed to nudity, and even sex, than violence in the media. We've tried to raise our kids with a mixture of "your body, your rules" and that nudity is natural and nothing to be ashamed of. In Europe, we've all been known to strip down on the beaches and in hotel saunas where nudity is allowed. We own a summer home with a private beach here in the US and we dress however we feel at the moment-which sometimes means without any clothes at all. While we would never let our kids run around naked in an inappropriate public setting (a store, a public park, etc.), we have zero problems with it in confined places-just as long as THEY are comfortable with it. The same for us. We also never taught our kids cutesy or funny names for body parts; they learned the proper names for them at very young ages. I was an artist's model for many years and he often passed on preliminary sketches that he did of me as gifts. When our kids have friends over, they usually include those (framed and highly cherished) pictures on their "grand tour." Sometimes the other kids are taken aback ("Dude, that's your mom and she's naked!") but, for the most part, they just shrug it off.

I'm an American from an extremely conservative part of the country and I'm still not sure why the identity of nudity makes so many squeamish.

It is truly cultural. It's our cultural roots here in the states. Puritan ethos. It runs deep and has strangely created a sex-obsessed nation where a very misogynistic sexuality is highlighted, little girls are trained to adapt to that with heavy make up and suggestive dances in beauty pageants and cheer and dance, but any mention of or exposure to normal, natural nudity or normal sex or things like breast feeding is seen as disgusting, taboo and 🤬🤬🤬🤬. (My undergrad was American studies so I got to research this quite a bit. So fun!!!)

I'm with you. As long a so it's not misogynistic 🤬🤬🤬🤬 or exploitation or sex mixed with violence, I would much rather my kids be exposed to sec and nudity than violence. It doesn't bother me.

But my mom is from Holland, dad from Spain and they were American hippies. So different world I guess? (Anyone not familiar with sex Ed in Holland, google it!)

In any event, I just feel that the motives of these people, the focus wasn't on what was best for their kids or their children's well being. It was all about them and how it made the parents feel or appear to others.
 
  • #858
The boys look pretty happy with their haircuts. And I know that some barbershops have the 'menu' of shaved hair designs available for customers to choose. How do we know that the moms chose those designs, and did so because they were 'animal' designs and they wanted to humiliate their young adoptees?

For all we know, the boys picked the designs themselves because they thought they were cool. As you pointed out, adult males have chosen this same shaved hair design, including Nick Cannon and Kanye West. So it would not be surprising if the boys chose it as well.

I am just saying that we seem to be finding deep nefarious motives about every single thing ---and sometimes a haircut is just a haircut. It doesn't have to be objectified or racist or evil. Plenty of people, African Americans included, have chosen to have animal prints shaved in their hair as a design. Why would they do so if it had some horrible, demeaning meaning behind it?

The reason I was given when I dared suggest something behind the haircuts other than sheer malice, is that since it was the Hart women,there could be no other reason than racism and hatred, simply because it was them.
 
  • #859
I'm still not sure how I feel about any of this, but I wonder if Devonte's tears were out of relief-holding on to someone and getting affection, even a few seconds' worth, from someone who was showing him genuine kindness. I was bullied pretty badly in middle school and it really affected my self worth. At one point, however, I had to go to the hospital. As the anesthesiologist, nurse, and surgeon were preparing me, I suddenly broke into tears. They were being SO careful with me, treating me like I was a human being, that their kindness was almost too much. They thought I was crying because I was scared, but it was really because they were some of the first people to treat me as though I mattered.

It's possible. I just think viewing it in the context of children of abuse would lead closer to the truth than viewing it from the lens of a different context. These kids lived a particular reality most of us do not:

[FONT=&amp]Young children of narcissists learn early in life that everything they do is a reflection on the parent to the point that the child must fit into the [/FONT]personality[FONT=&amp] and behavioral mold intended for them. These children bear tremendous [/FONT]anxiety [FONT=&amp]from a young age as they must continually push aside their own personality in order to please the parent and provide the mirror image the parent so desperately needs. If these children fail to comply with the narcissist’s wishes or try to set their own [/FONT]goals[FONT=&amp] for their life – God, forbid – the children will be overtly punished, frozen out or avoided for a period of time – hours, days or even weeks depending on the perceived transgression in the eyes of the narcissistic parent.
[/FONT]
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/insight-is-2020/201405/narcissistic-parents-psychological-effect-their-children

The narcissistic golden child is often a replica of the narcissistic parent. They subconsciously take on the narcissistic parent’s values, beliefs, and way of life. They integrate these beliefs into every aspect of the life. Whereas the scapegoated child consciously completely rejects the narcissistic parent’s way of life, beliefs, and values. They consciously question the narcissist’s way of thinking – whereas the narcissistic child just goes along to get along.
http://parenting.exposed/the-relationship-between-the-scapegoat-and-the-golden-child/

Typically narcissistic parents are exclusively and possessively close to their children and may be especially envious of, and threatened by, their child's growing independence.[SUP][1][/SUP]The result may be what has been termed a pattern of narcissistic attachment, with the child considered to exist solely to fulfill the parent's wishes and needs.[SUP][2][/SUP] Commonly parents attempt to force their children to treat themselves as though they are their parents' puppets, or else be subject to punishments such as emotional abuse. Relative to developmental psychology, narcissistic parenting will adversely affect children in the areas of reasoning, emotional, ethical, and societal behaviors and attitudes as they mature.[SUP][3][/SUP] Within the realm of narcissistic parenting, personal boundaries are often disregarded with the goal of moulding and manipulating the child to satisfy the parents’ expectations.[SUP][4][/SUP]
Narcissistic people with low self esteem feel the need to control how others regard them, fearing they will be blamed or rejected and personal inadequacies exposed. They are self-absorbed, some to the point of grandiosity; and being preoccupied with protecting their self image, they tend to be inflexible, and lack the empathy necessary for child raising.[SUP][5]
As a result, children of narcissists learn to play their part and to perform their special skill, especially in public or for others; but typically do not have many memories of having felt loved or appreciated for being themselves, rather associating their experience of love and appreciation with conforming to the demands of the narcissistic parent.[SUP][11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_parent

(BBM. MUCH more at link!)

ETA:

I mean I agree with the poster who gets a strange, performance vibe form Devonte's tears. Yes. Kids cry. 12 year olds typically don't do so as much in public. yes it's okay. These were not normal kids in a normal environment. They were children of abuse and neglect with abusive, annihilating parents.
 
  • #860
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