CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #11

[InspectorGadget]

Openly calling someone an "Asperger mutant" all because they have been subpoenaed to testify shatters the seriousness of being on the stand and demeans all those who suffer from Asperger syndrome.

I'm not sure what you are referring to?

 

[MichaelCorleone]

I don't believe Sequeida knew exactly that it was January, he seemed to think it was more that general time frame including the end of 2009. Also Chase had no bank account between November 5th and February 3rd, so there wouldn't have been casino cash withdrawals for that period.

And this makes sense looking at the spreadsheets. It was the last quarter is 2009 when MSM comes into the picture and Merritt goes from making 65% per fountain to just a few hundred dollars.

 

[MichaelCorleone]

I was just listening to some of the audio that I had missed and got to the point where Det. Smith is discussing the recordings from the jail. One thing I was wondering if somebody here could answer is; who is Michelle? Is she his new girlfriend? Sorry if this information is widely known, I had only heard of his ex, Cathy. Thanks in advance

Michelle is/was his girlfriend after he and Jarvis broke up.

 

[itsbrookie]

Michelle is/was his girlfriend after he and Jarvis broke up.

Thank you, that is what I had assumed but wasn't sure. I appreciate you getting back to me

 

[MichaelCorleone]

I can't read those Can you tell me how much Joey paid MSM? and then how much Chase was paid?


Regardless of whether Joey fired Chase or not, he was going to have to figure something out to get more help than just 1 person. 1 other person could not make, ship, install those fountains IMO Hypothetically, if Joey was to sign a contract to do 500 fountains for a chain business( was it a hotel?), I can't recall the rumour... but would anyone expect 1 person to make and install all of those? Take out the Chase factor, insert any competent person that could theoretically make those fountains, can 1 person do it?

You have to look at the column headings on the one and then look at the second one to see where MSM starts getting paid and Chase’s portion drops to just a few hundred per fountain.

 

[MichaelCorleone]

I disagree. We are talking about a lazy, sneaky, thieving, good-for-nothing, rip-off, con-artist CM. I highly doubt that JM owed him anything, it was the other way around. Did CM ever pay him back for supporting his family, back when he was in the slammer, before? Doubt it. Or the $$ JM shelled out, when CM's tools were "stolen?" Even CM's former secretary testified, that he was cheating JM. Heck, the guy never even paid for his OWN lunch, whenever they met. God forbid, HE would've ever picked up the tab. I think this money was another reason, for CM to want JM dead.

But this is all emotion. I am speaking about factual information with regard to the email. It can be read 2 ways. I am sure the defense are going to twist it their way.

 

[citygirl]

Good morning. Have we seen the email?

 

[MichaelCorleone]

Good morning. Have we seen the email?

Here it is...

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I have read this lots Edmo... that people think he is guilty but could get off (not so much here, but there are some here that think the same), why do you think that?

I think even if the defense didn't present their case, it could go either way, only because there are some unanswered questions. I think we might get answers to some of the unanswered questions (at least the one's I have) on the defense side, possibly even from cross exam from the prosecution.

Most cases I follow, there is very little doubt about the guilt, this case has been different from day 1, where there still seems to be quite a few that don't believe he did it at all, no way, no how.

I'm somewhat mystified that some really think the opinions held in this particular case are different somehow from other murder trials.

Since becoming a member here in Jan. 2004, I have followed more murder trials than I can even begin to count, and have followed them on several other social media crime sites as well.

In every case I've ever followed there are always those who are convinced the defendant is innocent or thinks the state hasn't proved their case.

I have noticed over the years some of those who holds this same position often has the same opinions in other cases as well.

So, imo, based on all of the other trials I've followed the positions held here, and elsewhere are very typical, and inline with all of the other murder cases/trials discussed.

It shows there are always going to be opposing opinions on both sides, which is what makes the discussions far more interesting on a crime discussion blog.

However, what I have also noticed, whether we agree or disagree on a discussion site, it is not an indicator of what juries will do when coming to their verdict.

99 percent of the trials discussed here, the juries were totally unanimous when coming to their verdicts.

Imo, what it shows is what outsiders believe or doesn't believe in any case, really has no bearing on what the actual juries think/thought.

Nor is it an indicator or a predictor of anything other than expressing outside opinions.

If it was a valid indicator/predictor then every trial I've ever followed would have ended in a hung jury which rarely ever happens LOL!

I believe this jury will also come to an unanimous verdict. It much different for the jurors who are hearing the evidence inside of a courtroom.

Imo

 

[missy1974]

BBM missy do you have a trial source for that please?


This was DuGal's testimony:

Day 5 Part 3 [timestamp 18.32 in video]

S Daugherty: During the course of that interview did the defendant describe meeting with Joseph McStay on February 4th 2010?

T DuGal: He did.

SD: Did you attempt to corroborate the fact that the meeting ever took place?

TD: I did.

SD: What did you do?

TD: So he told me that it was a pretty traditional meeting, that Joseph and him talked on the phone every day, that there was some money that they had to exchange because he worked for Joseph, he had his own company and they were doing water fountains and water features together, the defendant was in charge of custom water features, Joseph was in charge of – he basically owned the company and took orders and did much more than just, Joseph wasn’t involved in the building – he essentially was a builder so he said I had to have everyday communication, money exchanges so Joseph drove from Fallbrook according to the defendant, to Rancho Cucamonga to meet with him at Chick-fil-A pretty close to his residence, and I don’t remember the address but it’s not far from his residence, he said that they had met there for lunch, that they ate lunch there, they were there a couple of hours, they talked about work, they exchanged cheques, and then he left and Joseph went home. So after the meeting I went to Chick-fil-A and I tried to obtain the video, surveillance video, and unfortunately because of the way this, this what ends up being a homicide, was reported, uh we were whatever it was the 17th, um he claims this meeting occurred on the 4th that’s 13 days, most businesses don’t hold their video that long and neither did Chick-fil-A. It was gone a couple of days earlier than when I checked.

---

This was Scott Weitzman's testimony:

Day 22 Part 2 [9.53 timestamp in video]

Melissa Rodriguez: During the opportunity that you had to review the particular bank records did you look at transactions that occurred on or around February 4th of 2010 from both Mr McStay’s account and the defendant’s account?

SW: Yes.

MR: Did you notice any transactions for a Chick-fil-A restaurant?

SW: No I did not see any.

MR: And when you had that opportunity to review both of those accounts did it appear that both of those accounts used their debit card or made purchases from various restaurants and things like that?

SW: Yes. [objection – vague as to time – overruled]

---------

So where do you think the prosecution is going with this? Does it look as if their case is that Joey and Chase met for lunch?

They've also shown the cell tower maps showing that Joey's phone moved from the residence to Chick-fil-A and Merritt's did not.

Why would the prosecutors ask these questions if one of their other witnesses had testified the meeting was verified?

Why do you think the defense didn't bring out in cross-examination that there was indeed evidence to corroborate the meeting and that the detective and the forensic accountant did a sloppy investigation or didn't look at credit card records or whatever you believe could corroborate it?

I will have to look later, not sure I have the time right now.... I thought Dugal, but maybe not? And I also thought Smith said something about it being verified, but not by him, he's testified a million times, so not sure when it was lol

I did catch that in the Accountant's testimony, but interestingly enough, I haven't heard anything about Joey's CC's in any testimony, at least none that I recall?

I get where you are going with them not meeting, I just think they did... I'm interested in alternate theories because I don't believe the prosecutions. If they didn't meet and something happened earlier that day (like some theories) I just don't know how the separate cell phone activity is explained then... Chase's phone in RC, Joey's on his way home and home later.

 

[smr]

The only person who has shown any inkling or hatred towards the family is Chase.

Strongly refutable.

 

[smr]

I think his stolen/fraudulent checks were about to be discovered by Joey. One was cashed on the 2nd---so the 4th is quite possibly the day Chase would expect it to be showing up on Joey's bank records. If joey noticed that his account had thousands less than he thought, he was going to investigate.

Chase had a long criminal history and had been in and out of jail just recently. If Joey got mad enough to report it as embezzlement by an employee, it could get serious.

Also, Chase was flat broke and his account was often over drawn, and his rent was over due. He just wanted to get on with it and start cashing checks while he could. JMO

I see. And while we are at it, why did he use a hammer to kill them?

 

[Tortoise]

I've transcribed a few portions of the Judge's response to the defense's motion to dismiss:


Susan Blake

The court has reviewed the evidence in some detail to determine if the court can say if the jury return a verdict of guilty is there substantial evidence to support such a finding. So we start off really with the testimony of Susan Blake the very first witness in the trial and it turns out at least from my perspective when combined with much of the other evidence, her testimony is critical evidence.

She lays out the basic foundation that Joseph was in a business EIP to create and manufacture fountains or waterfalls and that Mr Merritt was involved in that business with him, as was Mr Kavanaugh. So she lays out that foundation.

She then indicates that Mr McStay, Joseph McStay had indicated to her that it was his intent or desire to phase actually both Mr Merritt and Mr Kavanaugh out of the business and other evidence indicated that indeed there was already a plan in place to buy out Mr Kavanaugh that was almost complete, but that he also intended to phase Mr Merritt out of the business and get a warehouse where he could have more welders to fabricate more waterfalls.

And Mrs Blake indicated that Mr McStay indicated to her the reasons why Joseph McStay wanted to phase Mr Merritt out of the business. They were that Mr Merritt had money problems, that Mr McStay had loaned money to Mr Merritt but did not get paid back, that part of Mr Merritt’s money problems were as a result of gambling and we saw from the accountant’s examination of Mr Merritt’s bank records that that depiction that Joseph McStay gave to Susan Blake, his mother, appears to be accurate – Mr Merritt did have money problems, his bank account was often overdrawn or down to a zero balance. Indeed the accounts ultimately were closed because they were so far overdrawn.

An analysis of the accounts also indicates a significant portion of Mr Merritt’s income or money in his accounts was utilised for gambling or playing poker depending on whether or not you consider poker a game of chance or a game of skill, but at any rate at casinos. So that’s substantiating the information that Ms Blake related.

The pattern of Mr Merritt having money problems and needing additional money and not paying back what he said he would pay back continued after the disappearance of the McStay family. Beginning only days after the family disappeared, Mr Merritt told Susan Blake that he needed additional money to complete existing projects. Dan Kavanaugh said no he didn’t need that money he’d already gotten enough money to complete the projects, there actually was an argument between Mr Kavanaugh and Mr Merritt regarding that. Susan Blake ultimately did advance Mr Merritt over $5000 of her own funds, ostensibly to complete existing projects with the understanding she would be paid back when those projects were completed. Mr Merritt subsequently reported to Ms Blake that indeed the Saudi Arabia project had been completed and he had received $17000 for that project. So Ms Blake asked him to repay the $5000 that she had advanced him, he did not do so and basically there was little if any further contact between Ms Blake and Mr Merritt after that point.


Voicemails

It’s also interesting that the defendant in his statements indicates that he talked to Joseph McStay on a daily basis usually multiple times a day and after the disappearance he indicated that he was continuing to try to reach Joseph McStay. However the testimony with regard to the cell phones that there were 25 voicemails on Joseph’s cell phone after the disappearance, 31 voicemails on Summer’s voicemail after the disappearance, of various people trying to contact them and enquire if they were ok but none of those were from the defendant.


Interview with Detectives

So with the backdrop of information about the financial issues of Mr Merritt, the financial issues between Mr Merritt and Mr McStay, the problems of Mr Merritt at Metro Sheet Metal it’s also interesting that when Mr Merritt is interviewed by the San Diego authorities shortly after the disappearance he reports that he and Joseph are or WERE best friends, they were good business partners, good working relationship there’s no mention of any conflicts regarding him not paying Joseph back for various sums, conflicts with MSM, any of that information.


Cell Phone at Grave Sites

And then we have the cell phone cell tower locations principally relating to February 6th 2010 - FBI Agent Boles.

That information indicates that from at least, well there was a phone call at 10.46 am from the defendant’s cell phone in the area of Mojave Drive near Oro Grande, which is certainly in the general area of where the bodies were buried.

Then between 11.30 and 11.52 am there were a series of calls that had originated from the tower above the grave sites with an 85 degree azimuth as the first contact which would place the cell phone in a cone going out from the cell tower and included within that cone is the grave sites.

There was another phone call at 1.30 pm with the originating azimuth of 170 degrees with a terminating tower in Victorville and the 170 degree azimuth of the originating call and the azimuth of the terminating call in Victorville was also in a cone that would have included the grave sites.

So it places Mr Merritt’s cell phone in the area of the grave sites for a considerable period of time on February 6th.

That becomes somewhat more significant given the geography of that area. If we had a cell phone in a location in a cone in the middle of a city whether the city is San Bernardino, Victorville or Rancho, and within that cone is an area where a crime occurred or a body was left might not be that significant because there is a lot of other residences a lot of other businesses a lot of other locations where people could be within that cone, not so where the area where the bodies were buried. The cone going out from the cell tower which includes the area of the grave site is mostly open desert, if you go far enough south you eventually do get into the city of Victorville but placing the cell phone in that general area which is mostly desert is certainly more significant than it would be if it were all city area.


Last Word

So the court finds that if the jury accepted the prosecution’s evidence, arguments and conclusions and returned a verdict of guilty that there is substantial evidence to support such a finding. For those reasons the motion to dismiss pursuant to Penal Code Section 1118.1 is denied.

 

[smr]

I disagree. I think CM had a lot of built up resentment and jealousy towards Joey and Summer.

Evidence? Especially regarding Joey and jealousy.

 

[Tortoise]

But this is all emotion. I am speaking about factual information with regard to the email. It can be read 2 ways. I am sure the defense are going to twist it their way.

How would you explain what he said about the email to detectives on February 17th then?

 

[missy1974]

I don't believe Sequeida knew exactly that it was January, he seemed to think it was more that general time frame including the end of 2009. Also Chase had no bank account between November 5th and February 3rd, so there wouldn't have been casino cash withdrawals for that period.

Sequida referred to it as 'towards the end of their business relationship'.... that is up for interpretation I guess. Of course this many years later, I don't doubt that it would be hard to put a date on it. But in relation to Feb 2010, they had only worked with them for 4 months or so if IIRC when they were showing the cheques that Joey wrote to MSM. So saying "towards the end" means what?

We may not have bank records, but we do have cell records that Smith showed when he was hitting towers near casino's. Although, I don't believe they were complete. Showing how many days, or hours he was hitting off of those towers in January would support their claim that he was to busy in the casino to come and do the electrical/plumbing on the unit's being done at MSM. JMO

 

[fridaybaker]

I disagree. I think CM had a lot of built up resentment and jealousy towards Joey and Summer. He even said snarky things about the boys. In one interview he mentions that Summer 'didn't believe in corporal punishment.'

Why would a 2 and 4 yr old require any form of corporal punishment?




Joey was renovating a beautiful new home that he just bought for his family. Joey had plenty of money in the bank, a bright future with millions in upcoming fountain contracts about to roll in. And many people loved and respected him.

Chase was in the exact opposite position. He was living a nightmare. He owed thousands in tax liens, law suits, gambling debts and overdue bills---his rent was past due, he lost his checking account because of all the overdrawn checks, he had no credit, his health was failing, and just when all these huge contracts were about to pay off, Joey began farming out the work to another company.

He had young children, like Joey did, but the mother of his young children did not even give them Chase's last name. They depended upon him but he constantly let them down, by getting arrested, or gambling away his payroll checks etc. Their life was erratic and chaotic compared the Joey's kids.

Joey was 'his best friend' and 'his business partner' ---but that was only in Chase's warped mind. Joey treated him very well and enabled him, but they were not 'equals.' And Chase knew that.

I think the stress and resentment built up ---gambling addicts live a holy hell---scrambling to feed their ugly greed and lying and cheating and stealing from friends, foes and strangers. I think it all came to a head because Joey had finally had enough.

JMO




ETA:
This bit of testimony, from an officer conducting that Feb.17 interview of Merritt:
Q In fact, didn’t he say there on the 17th that Joseph was

one of his best friends?

A Yes.

Q Didn’t he say that Joseph definitely loved Summer?

A Yes.

Q And didn’t he say she was a verbal person — was a verbal

person?

A Yes.

Q And she didn’t believe in corporal punishment?

A Yes.

IIRC, Chase also said that "Joseph was my best friend, but I wasn't Joseph's best friend." Am I remembering this right? If so, very telling, in my book, when coupled with ALL the other things said.

 

[Longtimenoc]

I don't believe Sequeida knew exactly that it was January, he seemed to think it was more that general time frame including the end of 2009. Also Chase had no bank account between November 5th and February 3rd, so there wouldn't have been casino cash withdrawals for that period.

I've been dwelling on the supposed lunch meet up. I don't think it happened. Please feel free to point out the errors in my thinking.

Is it possible that Merritt gained physical control of JM at his home after luring him there? The supposed lunch meet up might all have been an elaborate ruse preplanned. How do we know that CM didnt lure JM up there, bind, torture, kill him there?

Whats to say that Merritt didnt disable his phone earlier? He had Joseph so he had his phone. He could have played phone games between both phones all day. He could have made the 5:48 call himself. Could CM have left his phone behind as part of preplanned staging?

But why murder the rest of the family? Maybe Merritt thought JM had cash hidden at home. Maybe JM told him that in an effort to buy time. Maybe JM was already dead when CM went down to Fallbrook. Perhaps the trooper and Joseph remained at CMs house when he made his deadly mission to the house. Maybe JM was not enshrouded in the futon cover and the cover was used for other purposes.

The states time line is extremely close. Whats to say he wasnt there much earlier in the afternoon thus the breakfast leftovers still out? There is probably a fault in my logic so please chime in. I just feel that the lunch meeting never occurred.
Edit: replied to wrong post

 

[A lucas]

I've transcribed a few portions of the Judge's response to the defense's motion to dismiss:


Susan Blake

The court has reviewed the evidence in some detail to determine if the court can say if the jury return a verdict of guilty is there substantial evidence to support such a finding. So we start off really with the testimony of Susan Blake the very first witness in the trial and it turns out at least from my perspective when combined with much of the other evidence, her testimony is critical evidence.

She lays out the basic foundation that Joseph was in a business EIP to create and manufacture fountains or waterfalls and that Mr Merritt was involved in that business with him, as was Mr Kavanaugh. So she lays out that foundation.

She then indicates that Mr McStay, Joseph McStay had indicated to her that it was his intent or desire to phase actually both Mr Merritt and Mr Kavanaugh out of the business and other evidence indicated that indeed there was already a plan in place to buy out Mr Kavanaugh that was almost complete, but that he also intended to phase Mr Merritt out of the business and get a warehouse where he could have more welders to fabricate more waterfalls.

And Mrs Blake indicated that Mr McStay indicated to her the reasons why Joseph McStay wanted to phase Mr Merritt out of the business. They were that Mr Merritt had money problems, that Mr McStay had loaned money to Mr Merritt but did not get paid back, that part of Mr Merritt’s money problems were as a result of gambling and we saw from the accountant’s examination of Mr Merritt’s bank records that that depiction that Joseph McStay gave to Susan Blake, his mother, appears to be accurate – Mr Merritt did have money problems, his bank account was often overdrawn or down to a zero balance. Indeed the accounts ultimately were closed because they were so far overdrawn.

An analysis of the accounts also indicates a significant portion of Mr Merritt’s income or money in his accounts was utilised for gambling or playing poker depending on whether or not you consider poker a game of chance or a game of skill, but at any rate at casinos. So that’s substantiating the information that Ms Blake related.

The pattern of Mr Merritt having money problems and needing additional money and not paying back what he said he would pay back continued after the disappearance of the McStay family. Beginning only days after the family disappeared, Mr Merritt told Susan Blake that he needed additional money to complete existing projects. Dan Kavanaugh said no he didn’t need that money he’d already gotten enough money to complete the projects, there actually was an argument between Mr Kavanaugh and Mr Merritt regarding that. Susan Blake ultimately did advance Mr Merritt over $5000 of her own funds, ostensibly to complete existing projects with the understanding she would be paid back when those projects were completed. Mr Merritt subsequently reported to Ms Blake that indeed the Saudi Arabia project had been completed and he had received $17000 for that project. So Ms Blake asked him to repay the $5000 that she had advanced him, he did not do so and basically there was little if any further contact between Ms Blake and Mr Merritt after that point.


Voicemails

It’s also interesting that the defendant in his statements indicates that he talked to Joseph McStay on a daily basis usually multiple times a day and after the disappearance he indicated that he was continuing to try to reach Joseph McStay. However the testimony with regard to the cell phones that there were 25 voicemails on Joseph’s cell phone after the disappearance, 31 voicemails on Summer’s voicemail after the disappearance, of various people trying to contact them and enquire if they were ok but none of those were from the defendant.


Interview with Detectives

So with the backdrop of information about the financial issues of Mr Merritt, the financial issues between Mr Merritt and Mr McStay, the problems of Mr Merritt at Metro Sheet Metal it’s also interesting that when Mr Merritt is interviewed by the San Diego authorities shortly after the disappearance he reports that he and Joseph are or WERE best friends, they were good business partners, good working relationship there’s no mention of any conflicts regarding him not paying Joseph back for various sums, conflicts with MSM, any of that information.


Cell Phone at Grave Sites

And then we have the cell phone cell tower locations principally relating to February 6th 2010 - FBI Agent Boles.

That information indicates that from at least, well there was a phone call at 10.46 am from the defendant’s cell phone in the area of Mojave Drive near Oro Grande, which is certainly in the general area of where the bodies were buried.

Then between 11.30 and 11.52 am there were a series of calls that had originated from the tower above the grave sites with an 85 degree azimuth as the first contact which would place the cell phone in a cone going out from the cell tower and included within that cone is the grave sites.

There was another phone call at 1.30 pm with the originating azimuth of 170 degrees with a terminating tower in Victorville and the 170 degree azimuth of the originating call and the azimuth of the terminating call in Victorville was also in a cone that would have included the grave sites.

So it places Mr Merritt’s cell phone in the area of the grave sites for a considerable period of time on February 6th.

That becomes somewhat more significant given the geography of that area. If we had a cell phone in a location in a cone in the middle of a city whether the city is San Bernardino, Victorville or Rancho, and within that cone is an area where a crime occurred or a body was left might not be that significant because there is a lot of other residences a lot of other businesses a lot of other locations where people could be within that cone, not so where the area where the bodies were buried. The cone going out from the cell tower which includes the area of the grave site is mostly open desert, if you go far enough south you eventually do get into the city of Victorville but placing the cell phone in that general area which is mostly desert is certainly more significant than it would be if it were all city area.


Last Word

So the court finds that if the jury accepted the prosecution’s evidence, arguments and conclusions and returned a verdict of guilty that there is substantial evidence to support such a finding. For those reasons the motion to dismiss pursuant to Penal Code Section 1118.1 is denied.

Woah Tortoise. Thanks a million for doing this. I have been dying to listen in but being UK based I hadn’t yet had the chance. Reading this has really cheered me up!

The most compelling piece in all that is the cellphone pings, azimuth and the cone the judge refers to. Especially when he highlights that the space captured by the pings is mainly desert and only a small edge of Victorville. Surely if anything nails him it’s got to be that?

I will try listen later but assume he was included the Mitchley video too?

Thanks once again.

 

[Tortoise]

Sequida referred to it as 'towards the end of their business relationship'.... that is up for interpretation I guess. Of course this many years later, I don't doubt that it would be hard to put a date on it. But in relation to Feb 2010, they had only worked with them for 4 months or so if IIRC when they were showing the cheques that Joey wrote to MSM. So saying "towards the end" means what?

We may not have bank records, but we do have cell records that Smith showed when he was hitting towers near casino's. Although, I don't believe they were complete. Showing how many days, or hours he was hitting off of those towers in January would support their claim that he was to busy in the casino to come and do the electrical/plumbing on the unit's being done at MSM. JMO

Sorry I don't understand your questions. They were murdered on February 4th so are you saying towards the end of their business relationship only includes January?

Now, according to the judge's remarks, we see his gambling problems were not just testified to by Joe Sequeida but Joey had already said that was one of the reasons he wanted to phase Chase out of the business to Susan Blake. I had missed that in her testimony, but I never doubted it anyway from the extent of his cash withdrawals.

As regards the cell phone towers you always have the poor reception issues to fall back on for an explanation, just like February 4th and 8th