CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #3

[mrjitty]

It was outlined in the OS - he called the bank before he got to Rancho Cucamonga:

"What he found was that on February 4th at 11.51 Joseph calls a number 949-492-8090 that is associated with Joseph’s bank in San Clemente the Union Bank in San Clemente. He doesn’t call that number all that often, he has called it in the past around the time they were buying the house they were moving in, he doesn’t call it all that often.

A few minutes later he calls the phone number associated with the defendant 374-0102 two minutes later he calls the defendant.

After that 11.56 he signs into his QuickBooks and then signs out two minutes later. At this point that February 2nd cheque has cleared the bank. After he logs out of QuickBooks and not having seen the cheque because it was deleted on the ledger again calls his bank at 12.15. That’s a different number, same bank.

While he’s doing this he’s travelling 15 northbound in the general area of Lake Elsinore.

He arrives in the Rancho Cucamonga area and his cell phone is communicating with towers in the Rancho Cucamonga area – at 12.52 there’s a call to the defendant, at 1.01 there’s another call to the defendant and at 3.03 is the last time that his phone makes contact with that tower in Rancho Cucamonga."

Agreed - but my theory is that by the time of the "lunch: - 1pm-3pm he knows there is a dodgy cheque but he does not know how Chase did it.

 

[Tortoise]

But that ruins the whole point of using it to prove he was elsewhere, via inbound calls - even if they go to voice - they show Chase's phone as 60 mins drive away

By turning it off, he created the whole suspicion of "going dark"

Maybe the person who had it switched it off without being asked, didn't want the hassle of answering his phone.

 

[mrjitty]

If he's in the house with Joey's and Summer's phones under his control I think it's common for perps to create false trails of texts to make it appear people are still alive after they've killed them. It's not my timeline btw so I don't know the details of that note in the timeline or how many texts etc were sent.

I agree he might have done that, but it seems to cut across the forensically aware idea of using tower separation

Wouldn't he worry that both phones are on the home tower?

Personally I think Chase was aware enough to "go dark" but I think the rest requires relying on extra people and sophistication which is unlikely

Just my opinion!

 

[Tortoise]

Agreed - but my theory is that by the time of the "lunch: - 1pm-3pm he knows there is a dodgy cheque but he does not know how Chase did it.

He knows the cheque was payable to Chase though presumably, and he knows it isn't a cheque he's given him. I think he'd not just sack him but report him or at least tell someone close to him like his father or Summer and discuss what he was going to do about it. It's a big decision to get rid of a work partner and I think most people would want to tell someone.

 

[mrjitty]

He knows the cheque was payable to Chase though presumably, and he knows it isn't a cheque he's given him. I think he'd not just sack him but report him or at least tell someone close to him like his father or Summer and discuss what he was going to do about it. It's a big decision to get rid of a work partner and I think most people would want to tell someone.

Agree but he has only known about this for a few hours and is still figuring it out after talking to bank, accountant and chase

I think it is not unrealistic that he planned to go home to dig into this. Likely call Quickbooks in the am. Speak to Summer etc.

We don't know what lies Chase told him and whether Joey might have believed him - at least initially

It's also possible Joey hesitated to tell Summer for obvious reasons

What Chase knows and Joey probably doesn't yet know is the number of deleted cheques created. But it is also obvious this subterfuge isn't going to last for long.

 

[Tortoise]

It will get interesting once we hear from the bank and the telephone data - although I'm usually bored to tears when it comes to cell phone testimony! Especially if we don't get to see the exhibits.

 

[Tortoise]

Agree but he has only known about this for a few hours and is still figuring it out after talking to bank, accountant and chase

I think it is not unrealistic that he planned to go home to dig into this. Likely call Quickbooks in the am. Speak to Summer etc.

We don't know what lies Chase told him and whether Joey might have believed him - at least initially

It's also possible Joey hesitated to tell Summer for obvious reasons

What Chase knows and Joey probably doesn't yet know is the number of deleted cheques created. But it is also obvious this subterfuge isn't going to last for long.

It's a whole lot harder to imagine he managed to subdue two adults in a house too.

 

[asyousay]

Whatever theory I have I always get holes but I still maintain Chase never had lunch with Joey that day and until I see concrete proof with what we know at the moment I stand by it.

It ties in with the phone calls and the fact for somebody who was having a business lunch he was constantly active online.

 

[missy1974]

It will get interesting once we hear from the bank and the telephone data - although I'm usually bored to tears when it comes to cell phone testimony! Especially if we don't get to see the exhibits.

We will definitely have to take good notes! lol I don't think in this trial it will be as boring as most. We have some unknowns here, and we have some questions that we will be looking for answers

 

[missy1974]

Whatever theory I have I always get holes but I still maintain Chase never had lunch with Joey that day and until I see concrete proof with what we know at the moment I stand by it.

It ties in with the phone calls and the fact for somebody who was having a business lunch he was constantly active online.

I was wondering... back in 2010, would Chick-Fil-A have had free wifi? Most places do now, but 9 years ago, I'm not sure?

 

[mrjitty]

Since going round the houses forever and a day on Pistorius, my preference on these cases with staged Crime Scenes is to look for the narrative of the murderer rather than the base truth.

It's a bit like time travel. We can't see the original timeline because the murderer has erased parts of it and introduced new narratives.

But the very existence of staging is what reveals the hand of the murderer.

In "professional" murderers or true "stranger" murders there is seldom a need to stage the crime scene and the bodies can simply remain where they fell.

So if Joey was rubbed out by a Mexican cartel there is no need to hide the bodies or stage the trooper.

Ditto, with killers who select victims seemingly at random there is no need to stage, because there is no direct connection to obscure.

In this case, it has been necessary to not only hide the bodies, but to try and hide that murder even occurred.

This speaks both to the personal connection to the murderer, as well as the sensitivity of the location but critically the timing of death.

 

[mrjitty]

It's a whole lot harder to imagine he managed to subdue two adults in a house too.

Unless they were not together.

It's quite possible he just knocked on the door and Joey let him in.

The guys went to talk business. It was bath time.

.02c

 

[Tortoise]

Unless they were not together.

It's quite possible he just knocked on the door and Joey let him in.

The guys went to talk business. It was bath time.

.02c

So why wasn't the Trooper in the driveway - if that was a different truck that left? There's only room for the Dodge and one other vehicle next to it on the driveway.

 

[mrjitty]

So why wasn't the Trooper in the driveway - if that was a different truck that left? There's only room for the Dodge and one other vehicle next to it on the driveway.

I agree it causes problems - e.g. a big problem with Joey driving home is how was the Trooper moved without leaving Chases vehicle at the crime scene.

But this is why these days I prefer not to go "full pistorius" and try to divine the real truth - it's hidden from us.

For me the most interesting question is the why of the hiding.

Why hide the bodies out there in the desert.

Why stage the house and the trooper?

The time and place of death is very important to the murderer.

 

[ThorJanus]

Has any evidence been presented that the "blanket material" wrapped around JM Sr. was the futon cover? I am afraid that the LE even messed up this evidence. Does anyone out there have the proof?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

See, this is where I think the prosecution saying it happened in the house might be a big barrier. We here at WS's are having to make it more complex to make the evidence fit, make all the calls fit in, the toy search, the toys in the back of the truck, etc. I sure hope the prosecution can come up with a cohesive timeline that the jury can 'believe'.

I really dont think it will be that big of a problem for the state.

I'm positive in their CA they will layout succinctly the evidence they have presented for the jury. They will probably use visuals on huge screens throughout the courtroom listing all the the CE that points to the home being the most reasonable and logical conclusion where the murders happened.

The state can also legally tell them in CA they do not have the legal burden of proving where it happened or even what happened or even why it happened.

The only burden they have to prove BARD is the evidence proves CM did it no matter where, why,or what happened.

The jury knows it did happen and are now sitting in judgment of the one accused.

Every criminal trial I've sat on we were advised during jury instructions what the state was legally required to prove BARD and that was solely determining if the defendant was guilty or not guilty based on all of the evidence entered.

In some of the state's CA they went line by line citing the law of what they had to prove and what they weren't required by law to prove.

In a couple of cases in the state's closing they stressed to us since no one was there at the time when the murder occurred but the victim and the accused the DA based their theory on what is known. Also stressing there will be always be questions that can't be answered.* many of us can attest to that right here because all questions are never fully answered in any murder case we may follow.

They even told us we could have our own theories/opinion based on the evidence we had heard.

All we had to agree on unanimously was whether all 12 agreed the defendant was either guilty BARD or not guilty. If all 12 couldn't agree one way or the other then of course it would result in a hung jury.

If all those things were legally required burdens of any prosecutors then missing body murder cases couldn't ever be brought or a suspect arrested since most of the where, when, what happened or even how they were murdered remain unknowns.

Yet they are successfully won now like any other murder case through entering compelling CE like they are doing in this case.

As the state's case proceeds I think at the end of it when the state lays out all of the CE facts, one by one, pointing to the home being the logical location where the murders occurred the jury will agree even though they are allowed to have their own theories/opinions where they believe it occurrred. They do not have to be in agreement. One can think it was at another location and 11 may think it was at their home for example.

Imo

 

[Texas Red]

It’s reasons like this that make me question Chase was at lunch with Joey.

Why on earth does Joey have a 2 hour lunch with Chase that ends at 3pm and then call him at 3.03pm? This was a 2 hour lunch let’s not forget.

Also why would Joey read Chase the riot act at 12.53 when he was going to see him 5 minutes later? It doesn’t make sense- who does that?!

IMO, something of consequence happened the moment Joey and Chase met. Which seems likely when you take into account Joey’s call to his bank at 12:15 when he most likely first became aware of the bank fraud, he felt betrayed and was pissed. Someone with that frame of mind is not going to calmly sit down and enjoy a 2 hour lunch with the person that ripped them off. Unfortunately, we really don’t know where the rendezvous was, it’s possible it was at the storage facility’s parking lot, which was located in Pomona and this is where the cell tower pinging the 6 min 12:28, call was located.

Of course I’m pushing the bounds of speculation but I’m attempting to fit the pieces of this jigsaw puzzle together, so, keeping that in mind, suppose they meet in the storage facility’s parking lot, Joey arrives first waiting outside his vehicle but CM isn’t there, which explains the calls he then made to CM. By the time CM does finally arrive Joey, is irate, this is apparent to CM the moment he pulls into the parking lot, Joey, then quickly approaches CM’s truck in order to confront him, CM see’s what’s going down, floors his accelerator and runs over Joey, breaking Joey’s leg and rendering him unconscious.

CM, happens to get lucky and there are no witnesses, he then puts Joey’s unconscious body into the back of his truck, enters the storage area and moves Joey into the storage garage where he then restrains or possibly kills him. CM, then takes Joey’s phone and proceeds to Fallbrook, in the Trooper.

The above synopses would also explain CM’s frantic sequence of calls to his girlfriend and possibly gaining her help. Please, let me know if see any holes in this theory or if you think it’s too outlandish.

 

[mrjitty]

IMO, something of consequence happened the moment Joey and Chase met. Which seems likely when you take into account Joey’s call to his bank at 12:15 when he most likely first became aware of the bank fraud, he felt betrayed and was pissed. Someone with that frame of mind is not going to calmly sit down and enjoy a 2 hour lunch with the person that ripped them off. Unfortunately, we really don’t know where the rendezvous was, it’s possible it was at the storage facility’s parking lot, which was located in Pomona and this is where the cell tower pinging the 6 min 12:28, call was located.

Of course I’m pushing the bounds of speculation but I’m attempting to fit the pieces of this jigsaw puzzle together, so, keeping that in mind, suppose they meet in the storage facility’s parking lot, Joey arrives first waiting outside his vehicle but CM isn’t there, which explains the calls he then made to CM. By the time CM does finally arrive Joey, is irate, this is apparent to CM the moment he pulls into the parking lot, Joey, then quickly approaches CM’s truck in order to confront him, CM see’s what’s going down, floors his accelerator and runs over Joey, breaking Joey’s leg and rendering him unconscious.

CM, happens to get lucky and there are no witnesses, he then puts Joey’s unconscious body into the back of his truck, enters the storage area and moves Joey into the storage garage where he then restrains or possibly kills him. CM, then takes Joey’s phone and proceeds to Fallbrook, in the Trooper.

The above synopses would also explain CM’s frantic sequence of calls to his girlfriend and possibly gaining her help. Please, let me know if see any holes in this theory or if you think it’s too outlandish.

I agree this is distinctly possible if we assume CFA never happened. (only source for the location is CM?). A simpler version is he kills him in the storage locker. Then the reason Joey is packaged is the simple need to sling him out of there and onto a truck later on.

However in that scenario, he needs to offload his phone to his girlfriend, and she will need to answer the 5:47 call and switch the phone off. Then somehow, Chase needs to get his phone back in order to call her again around 9.30pm. I think it is stretching credibility that the 9.30 call is faked

One issue with this theory though, is why kill the rest of the family now?

 

[Texas Red]

I agree this is distinctly possible if we assume CFA never happened. (only source for the location is CM?). A simpler version is he kills him in the storage locker. Then the reason Joey is packaged is the simple need to sling him out of there and onto a truck later on.

However in that scenario, he needs to offload his phone to his girlfriend, and she will need to answer the 5:47 call and switch the phone off. Then somehow, Chase needs to get his phone back in order to call her again around 9.30pm. I think it is stretching credibility that the 9.30 call is faked

One issue with this theory though, is why kill the rest of the family now?

Yes, it would have been necessary for the girlfriend to keep CM’s phone with her in RC. This scenario would also explain the dumping of the Trooper. After killing SM and the kids, CM leaves them in the house drives the Trooper to the border, take the nearby commuter train back to the LA area, where his girlfriend picks him up.

 

[wary]

IMO, something of consequence happened the moment Joey and Chase met. Which seems likely when you take into account Joey’s call to his bank at 12:15 when he most likely first became aware of the bank fraud, he felt betrayed and was pissed. Someone with that frame of mind is not going to calmly sit down and enjoy a 2 hour lunch with the person that ripped them off. Unfortunately, we really don’t know where the rendezvous was, it’s possible it was at the storage facility’s parking lot, which was located in Pomona and this is where the cell tower pinging the 6 min 12:28, call was located.

Of course I’m pushing the bounds of speculation but I’m attempting to fit the pieces of this jigsaw puzzle together, so, keeping that in mind, suppose they meet in the storage facility’s parking lot, Joey arrives first waiting outside his vehicle but CM isn’t there, which explains the calls he then made to CM. By the time CM does finally arrive Joey, is irate, this is apparent to CM the moment he pulls into the parking lot, Joey, then quickly approaches CM’s truck in order to confront him, CM see’s what’s going down, floors his accelerator and runs over Joey, breaking Joey’s leg and rendering him unconscious.

CM, happens to get lucky and there are no witnesses, he then puts Joey’s unconscious body into the back of his truck, enters the storage area and moves Joey into the storage garage where he then restrains or possibly kills him. CM, then takes Joey’s phone and proceeds to Fallbrook, in the Trooper.

The above synopses would also explain CM’s frantic sequence of calls to his girlfriend and possibly gaining her help. Please, let me know if see any holes in this theory or if you think it’s too outlandish.

The wasfirst thing that comes to mind is—which vehicle is caught on the neighbor’s security camera? Doesn’t the prosecution feel confident that it was NOT the Trooper? So, what vehicle would it be? Was Summer’s truck ruled out?