CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #4

[DragonFly1251]

Below is an article on touch/transfer DNA with various references and studies included.

Touch DNA. What is it? Where is it? How much can be found? And, how can it impact my case? | Ryan Forensic

Other articles of interest

Writ of Habeas Corpus Granted Over DNA Mixture Interpretation Issues | Ryan Forensic

Secondary Transfer a New Phenomenon in Touch DNA

In one of his lab's experiments, for instance, volunteers sat at a table and shared a jug of juice. After 20 minutes of chatting and sipping, swabs were deployed on their hands, the chairs, the table, the jug, and the juice glasses, then tested for genetic material. Although the volunteers never touched each other, 50 percent wound up with another's DNA on their hand. A third of the glasses bore the DNA of volunteers who did not touch or drink from them.”
Framed for Murder By His Own DNA

“Murphy referred to primary transfer as “the engine that turns the wheels of justice” and secondary transfer as “the cog that causes that wheel to grind to a halt.” When we acknowledge that a person’s DNA can be found on an object that he or she never touched, we come face to face with the new reality of DNA analysis: DNA may be incontrovertible evidence of identity, but DNA does not, by itself, explain how it got to where it was found.”
https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/new...ocent-and-dead-crime-scene-theyve-never-been/

 

[missy1974]

I really like your posts most of all; they are informative, easy to understand, and you make sure to verify your facts.

As to others from the past who are not posting now, I have no idea. The reason I don't think Chase is guilty is because I feel in my gut that someone (with accessory after the fact) else did it, AND cannot discuss it.
Keep up the good discussion, I have learned much from your posts.

aww thanks @Sharyne I really do like looking for the 'facts' but sometimes it comes down to the gut, doesn't it? I stumbled back into the McStay forum the night before Day 1 and my gut and heart tells me that Chase did this, no matter what the defense says, but my brain tells me that they need to prove it also. If they can find plausible scenarios to explain some of the evidence, there is a possibility that they can create that reasonable doubt, that's all they need really. Juries shouldn't convict or not convict on gut feelings, so I am looking forward to the rest of the trial

I hope you continue to post your thoughts as the trial goes on... do you think the prosecution could change your mind with the evidence?

 

[missy1974]

I'm right handed and always use my left hand to open the driver's door. I have key fobs but almost exclusively use keypad entry. I have grown up with my grandpa and dad having their own shops and I've worked at dealerships since 1986. Service, sales, body shop, parts, finance, rentals. I've had to drive every make, model, size, and age. Even the big 1 ton 4x4 trucks. Standard and automatic transmissions.

I exclusively use my left to open the door because of the natural position it puts you in to get into the vehicle. In sales, I was taught the psychological "presentation" aka "walk-around" that naturally places a customer at the most convenient and natural position that they automatically sit down inside the car. This is to get to the next step of a test drive or "demonstration."

Just my experience!

I think this is an "interesting" little experiment LOL I agree with you about the natural way to do it would be driver side left, passenger right, just because of the position of the body compared to the door. I also usually have my keys in my right hand. Thanks for answering

 

[missy1974]

Actually I thought about it after I posted that and there would be no need for a truck at that time, so a rental car would have served his purpose for getting back from San Ysidro to his own vehicle. Or he could have hitched a ride back even.

Would there be a record of a rental? Most require a credit card, don't they? Hitching a ride... is that easy to do down there?

 

[missy1974]

This is looking at it from the angle that he had to be back for a predetermined time like he was on a timetable. If it took him longer he'd have been back later and if it took him less time he'd have been back earlier.

We know what time he was in Corona (his phone ping) and according to google routes which build in traffic conditions it is well doable - with 2 hours to spare for other activities that morning.

Google maps says 4 hours to cover 250 miles, which is reasonable. My father lives 200 miles away and we regularly do the journey in 3-4 hours with a coffee stop on the way. If I had to guess I'd say he probably broke the speed limit and did it in less than the 4 hours Google allows.

I'd think he went with a plan for getting back.

He didn't need to be back at a certain time, but we know he was near Corona at 1:30pmish. When I go to google maps, it tells me 2-3 hours to get there, 1 1/2 hours - 2 hours 10 minutes to get back (I am unsure if google is taking into account the traffic). I will attach my screenshots again. I put the date and times for departure for this upcoming Monday the 4th, roughly the same times that Chase would have been down there on Monday Feb 8th 2010. I didn't account for much time in between, and had him leaving the border at 11am. It fits and he would have been back by 1:30, a lot depends on how he got back though, that's why I was asking Edmo how easy it was to get back from that area. If it was by public transportation for example, how long would that take? It can't be as fast as directly driving back yourself, can it? lol

 

[missy1974]

I answered that question back on page 10 thru 13 somewhere. It came from an old SDBO article - or something like those initials! That is no longer accessible.



Same as you - left hand driver's side, right hand passenger door.




I haven't seen a reply either - anyone here know - did they visit the Fallbrook house too?

And you are quite welcome on the days & trimes for trial.

You did answer that question, thanks again Niner!!!! I am thinking that maybe this 4:25 house call to Joey might not exist at all, we will have to wait and see what the evidence shows us.

Thanks for answering the hand question

I don't think we know if they went to the house or not.

 

[missy1974]

I've narrowed it to the Corona route because when his phone came back on he was in Corona and travelling north.

As far as I can see there are two possibilities:

1. He drove the Trooper from home (or near Azusa) all the way to the border that morning.
2. He drove his own vehicle to wherever the Trooper was, left his own vehicle there, and drove the Trooper to the border from there.

Option 2. means that he had to get back to where he left his own vehicle and drive his own vehicle home from there. Option 2 is better because it doesn't involve having the Trooper parked at his home.

Option 2, his route from Corona direct to home (not via Azusa) could rule out that the Trooper was left at Azusa (option 1.) and tells me the Trooper had been left somewhere along that route between Fallbrook and Corona for him to rejoin his own vehicle.

JMO, but I don't think he had the Trooper at home. He lived in an apartment complex, they usually have limited parking spots, I don't know where he could park it and it not be suspicious or CJ seeing it (assuming that she is not involved at all).

 

[missy1974]

Ggv


Morning Missy.

It's hard for me to believe it was just transferred DNA from the meeting.

First, imo the jury would have to have some kind of evidence that supports the handshake even occurrred to seriously consider it which I find doubtful. Right now it's only a defense assumption, right?

People that have known each other for years usually don't shake hands every time they are together. Imo guys may quckly put their hand on the shoulder of their guy friend when leaving then verbally say 'see ya later'. Etc.

To me this particular meeting wouldn't lead to a handshake at the end of it.

I cant believe anyone would shake the hand of the very one they had discovered ripping them off. Who would really do that??

Imo, that's just not logical due to the circumstances surrounding this meeting that had to be anything but cordial. A handshake at the end represents 'all is well and cordial' when I think we can conclude it was not well or friendly, and this contentious meeting started what was to come shortly thereafter.

I understand why the defense is trying to make any of his DNA found in three different locations just coincidental transfer.

I can't recall now, but didn't Merritt himself say he had never been in or drove the Trooper?

If so, the defense knows this links Merritt to the Trooper that was put at the border showing he lied.

For Merritt's DNA to still be there long after the meeting it would have to mean Joey didn't touch any other surfaces or anyone else after then if the handshake even happened.

In the trials I've followed that had DNA evidence found of the suspect have said everyone is constantly touching new different type of surfaces, or other people like family members etc. But the last one to touch any surface will be the most likely one found since they were the last person to touch that particular surface.

Imo

Good afternoon Ocean

I think if they shook hands, Joey wouldn't have touched much else between that and his truck. If he was killed within hours of that, other than the person who drove the truck to the border, no one would have been in the truck between that and when it was swabbed. JMO

It doesn't even require that they shook hands, it could have been a pen or a pencil, I did some googling last night, this transfer DNA stuff is not made up, it's real and it does happen, there are studies out there that show it. I fully expect the Defense to either show that with a State witness or with their own.

The swabs that they took from the Trooper showed major, minor, and trace contributors. It will depend on the numbers and how it was tested from what I was reading. It's also important to note that they did not find his DNA on the door inside or out.

 

[missy1974]

Good morning asyousay!

Thanks, so the places where his DNA was found does not line up with him saying he had only been a passenger?

How long ago did he say he had been in the passenger seat since DNA of others after then would override his pretty quickly? Tia

Imo

Just from what we know and logic... the areas where it could be said that he could easily contribute as a passenger, he was a trace contributor, IIRC Summer was the major, Joey was the minor (that would be the collective swab of the controls/gear shift) The steering wheel, Joey was the major, Chase minor, Summer trace.

 

[missy1974]

While I don't share your or Missy's opinion that Merritt may be innocent, I do share your view about Missy being an asset in this forum along with so many others.

We are extremely fortunate to have many posters who have posted very informative information about this case, and have done so throughout.

That is why I always make sure I read every single post that has been posted here by everyone since day one.

Imo

I am not sure I think he's innocent.... right now they are not proving to me that he is guilty though... I know there is a line there, and I'm not sure I will ever believe he is innocent unless someone else confesses lol

 

[missy1974]

I think he said it was about 6 weeks prior when he claimed he and Joey went paintballing. But he did have to think about it for quite a while before he answered.

I thought Joey was ill around that time, when they thought he was being poisoned, so paintballing is quite an achievement. I don't know how ill he was. Would there have been any witnesses to the paintballing? If not he could say what he liked knowing they were dead.

When they played Chase's interview, I think he said that Joey quit paintballing because he was so sick, but he continued to play soccer.

 

[ThorJanus]

Do we know what were the contents of that text?

What about the rumors that Summer had at least 2 different cell phones? Not sure if there is any truth there either.

 

[missy1974]

Ha! This would be a great question for the prosecution to ask the detective on the stand: Did you take fingerprints on the eggs and coffee (the "breakfast items") to determine whether they were from the victims or from.....someone else. Wouldn't the jury get the idea?

That would be a terrible question for the Prosecution to ask ... it would highlight just how little they did in the beginning and again how the family started cleaning up before San Diego came back with the search warrant! The would help the defense IMO

 

[missy1974]

Summer sent one text to Joseph that day, at 5:05 pm. So if Joseph is in Fallbrook at 4:18, Summer (assumedly) calls him from the home at 4:25 and texts at 5:05, where is Joseph?

Could he have gone to pick up the toys she found on Craigslist?

 

[missy1974]

I've been thinking why all of us are probably members on WS.

Imo, it is because WS is a wonderful place to come where posters can DISCUSS their thoughts, and exchange varying opinions that never have to be in agreement with everyone else.

It is place that shows how God has made us all individual human beings with each of us being unique in our own way. None of us have more value here than another.

We each have the same entitled rights to post our own opinions, theories, comment on evidence during a trial, and to post informative information on any case we may choose to follow.

Tricia knows its each, and every one of her members who makes WS the best crime forum discussion site ever.

Since joining WS in January 2004 I have never used the ignore function nor do I scroll, and roll by anyone's post even though I may disagree totally with their point of view. Instead I read closely what they think, and why. Most of the time I respectfully reply.

Why? Because I know every human being is not going to be in lockstep with my opinion.

Imo, when anyone only seeks like minded POV then their brain has become as tightly shut as a steel trap which leaves the brain stagnant, unable to fill it with any other thoughts.

Nothing new can ever be learned if someone even refuses to consider what others may think or believe when clearly stating why they have this POV.

Imo that is the huge problem we are facing in America right now with so many seeking only information to validate their own views, and never searching for another POV or searching for actual factual information that may show them flaws in what they have always believed.

Imo, many refuse, and continue to have a closed mind refusing to budge, and refusing to get out of their comfort zone where valid information may disprove their own longly held entrenched beliefs.

Some of the best discussions I've experienced here have come from those with a different view point.

I have learned so much from countless others, no matter who the poster may be or what side of the isle they may be on at the time.

At times over the years some have even convinced me, I needed to look at a piece of evidence differently which caused me to rethink my position on them.

And really would any of us even be here on a discussion forum if every post put up had the same opinion? I know I couldn't.

If that were the case, I might as well sit in my home talking to myself, and have a parrot that mimics everything I say.

I have always been someone who thirsts for knowledge, and have remained open minded to receive that knowledge, no matter where I may find it, nor has it ever mattered who may have the knowledge. It just doesn't matter to me one way or the other.

Imoo and thoughts.

I absolutely agree! I hope that others that might be hesitant to post will join the discussion and won't be afraid that their viewpoint will be dismissed or not valid. I think this is a case where it is not as clear cut as some, and part of that is the years between and how much has been said or how much has been lost in between.

Some days I wish I had never stumbled upon these discussion forums (I was originally an InSession or CourtTV poster). I haven't figured out how the cases that I follow gripped me and why some don't LOL This case has been a bit different than some that I have followed, in the sense that we do not have all documents to decipher and read before the trial even starts, we have some reports and some media information (which I don't even know if we can trust lol), but we have a whole lot of rumours and things that have not been verified over the years as well, so it's interesting to see things for myself in this case and am finding things are not always as we thought we knew them. Just as examples... I seriously always thought the sheets and bedding was "missing" from the home. This was not the case as we can see them in the San Diego SD photo's, but they were stripped in the Tim Miller videos. Back in the day, we dissected everything in those videos!!! lol I always thought that the SDSD told the family it was okay to clean up and take the computers, which most thought that was crazy, well, according to DuGal, that was also not the case, they were not told they could clean and take the computers.

 

[missy1974]

Amen to what you said.

I learned from the defense OS this is called 'Confirmation Bias'.

What are your thoughts @smr ? do you think he is guilty? Not sure? Waiting to see more? You don't have to answer if you don't want to, just curious

 

[Cricket28]

Would there be a record of a rental? Most require a credit card, don't they? Hitching a ride... is that easy to do down there?

Here is this:
Transportation in Tijuana: San Diego Trolley
With the border of Mexico less than 20 miles from downtown San Diego, millions of people travel to Tijuana from San Diego every year. While some drive, arguably the easiest way to cross the Mexican border is by taking the San Diego Trolley.

From downtown San Diego, a trip to the Mexican border will take about 45 minutes on the Imperial Way blue line.

The trolley arrives approximately every 15 minutes and is generally an easy way to get around the city.

The last trolley departs San Ysidro at 12:58 a.m.

San Diego Trolley, Tijuana - Transportation | SmarterTravel

 

[missy1974]

As always, please ignore/forgive if this has been discussed recently.

I have been thinking about the reasons I believe CM is guilty, especially versus DK. There are so many..... However, something that I'm reminded of is the man who went gold digging with Chase and got the creeps because Chase started telling him, apropos of nothing, about the McStays and that he himself been looked into as a suspect. I seem to recall it was that man, as well, who commented on the stunning physical strength of Chase -that he carried extremely heavy buckets as if they were nothing, all day long. Something to that effect. I wonder if he'll be called to testify?

One thing that I noticed about that guy though, and I could be wrong, it was a few weeks ago that I read about it... he was okay with Chase until he found out Chase had a connection to the McStay's, wasn't he? I think it was the same with the neighbour and friend of his new girlfriend... the search warrants make it sound like they were all friends until they found out that there was a connection with the McStay family... a simple google search could cloud anyone's view of Chase before and after the bodies were found. JMO

Here is a screenshot of the search warrant talking about the neighbours.

 

[missy1974]

Oh, and that photo of him standing in the very "grave-esque" hole, covered in dirt, somewhere in the desert, with shovel in hand.... Would that the jury could see that.

Okay, that one is creepy IMO I wonder if they will be able to see it? Has there been a ruling on it that we know of? anyone... ?

 

[missy1974]

Below is an article on touch/transfer DNA with various references and studies included.

Touch DNA. What is it? Where is it? How much can be found? And, how can it impact my case? | Ryan Forensic

Other articles of interest

Writ of Habeas Corpus Granted Over DNA Mixture Interpretation Issues | Ryan Forensic

Secondary Transfer a New Phenomenon in Touch DNA

In one of his lab's experiments, for instance, volunteers sat at a table and shared a jug of juice. After 20 minutes of chatting and sipping, swabs were deployed on their hands, the chairs, the table, the jug, and the juice glasses, then tested for genetic material. Although the volunteers never touched each other, 50 percent wound up with another's DNA on their hand. A third of the glasses bore the DNA of volunteers who did not touch or drink from them.”
Framed for Murder By His Own DNA

“Murphy referred to primary transfer as “the engine that turns the wheels of justice” and secondary transfer as “the cog that causes that wheel to grind to a halt.” When we acknowledge that a person’s DNA can be found on an object that he or she never touched, we come face to face with the new reality of DNA analysis: DNA may be incontrovertible evidence of identity, but DNA does not, by itself, explain how it got to where it was found.”
https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/new...ocent-and-dead-crime-scene-theyve-never-been/

Welcome to Websleuths @DragonFly1251 !!! Thanks for posting these! I was reading last night, and was actually surprised at how much information and truth there is to it!