CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #3

[Deleted member 222031]

Consider, that it doesn't have to be "either-or". It could be "both-and". Or neither, or even "all of the above", if they did ingest soemthing poisonous, while becoming exhausted hiking uphill in extreme heat while tending to an overheated baby and dog.

Both/and seems most logical to me. The infant & dog probably died from heat exposure after the adults were first affected by some toxin then unable to continue in the heat.

Hopefully, toxicology results will help solve this puzzle. Finding their bodies sooner would also have helped in understanding this tragedy.

I find it odd the nanny was not alarmed enough by their absence to notify someone sooner. But maybe I missed something.

I do think their hiking in the heat on a trail without shade was a miscalculation since it left little margin for error. If they started out along the river, it's too bad they went forward into the switchback to return to their car. Toxins, heat, a climb back to their car....and potential lightning, too?

While it has a tragic outcome and can be criticized as too risky a hike, it does reinforce the need for:
(1) A note left at home/text to someone with trail/route and anticipated time of return
(2) A beacon or other device to use in an emergency when cell service is limited
(3) Changing plans when intuition says don't go. To me, there is no way they did not assess and then ignore the obvious risks. Usually doing that doesn't end in death.

This is an educational opportunity. As a female hiker who enjoys going solo, I have had to say no to trails and hikes I wanted to take that were too high in the risk percentile in remote areas of Colorado. Sometimes the trail not taken means being able to hike another day.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Thank you! Great information and makes it easier for me to picture.

So they were found midway up a barren trail, indicating they likely were coming back up?

I think the orientation of the bodies suggested they were on their way back up. Not certain but implied.

 

[lotus777]

That makes more sense. But still, I would expect them to know better and to have checked the weather before starting out. Also, they would know if they hike that going down means coming back up. It’s a concern for me when I am descending when it’s hot. It’s easy to get stuck down in a canyon and lose the ability to climb out.

One thing I've found interesting is Jonathan's AllTrails shows he completed Hites Cove Trail years ago but Savage Lundy isn't on AllTrails at all. Wonder if he didn't do Savage Lundy before and didn't look too closely at the map to notice the more extreme elevation change on Savage Lundy.

 

[SophieRose]

Savage Lundy portion is three miles, so if they were about 1.5 miles from the car, they were about 1.5 miles from the river (I estimate it's about .3 mile to the car parked at the Hites Cove Trail.

 

[happyday]

I think you're misinterpreting the data... They were found about halfway up Savage Lundy Trail, which is a very steep trail with switchbacks. If they did the loop starting out on Hites Cove Trail as LE originally estimated, they would have gone downhill only to the river and then started uphill on Savage Lundy.

I’m not sure what you mean? That’s basically what I said. I didn’t name the trails, but I’m just saying I don’t think they hiked downhill for 1.5 miles and died there like I’ve seen some people wonder. I think it’s more likely they hiked down to the river and were on the way back up to the trailhead when they died, whether they did the loop or just Savage Lundy down and back up. Maybe I’m saying it in a confusing way.

 

[Runswithdogs]

That makes more sense. But still, I would expect them to know better and to have checked the weather before starting out. Also, they would know if they hike that going down means coming back up. It’s a concern for me when I am descending when it’s hot. It’s easy to get stuck down in a canyon and lose the ability to climb out.

As a fellow dog hiker well versed in heat risks, you & I are hung up on many of the same lingering questions. It’s really utter madness to me. You & I are also on the exact same page in regards to the temps we recreate with our dogs in & the resultant level of preparedness we take to avoid issue even in “moderate” temps. I wouldn’t attempt anything unshaded, not along water for at least some of the route, in any temp over 80F.

If the dog was carried because of illness, wouldn't you take the leash off? Even if you sit down, he's still most likely not well and doesn't need it. Or JG puts it on because he thinks the dog could get better while J catches his breath and run away. Sorry just a little detail I think about.

I’ve also thought about this a lot too. My only explanatory thought is that I sometimes hike with one of my dogs tethered on a hip belt, it’s probable if the dog was dead or incapacitated that he was just scooped & carried without regard for unclipping the leash if he was attached around the waist.

Thank you! Great information and makes it easier for me to picture.

So they were found midway up a barren trail, indicating they likely were coming back up?

Precisely. I remember one article mentioning the saw tracks resembling a family of their size with a dog heading DOWN the HC trail (more of a gradual decline) & it wasn’t until a second SAR team arrived & started down the more steep & switchbacky SL trail that the family was found.
To me this mention does lead credence to them hiking the loop & nearly making it back. Which I find unfathomable for the dog have to survived to even a halfway point without intervening actions like submersing him in the river, but even then I sadly think his death would have been imminent if they got back on the trail in those conditions.

 

[lotus777]

It doesn’t make sense to me. If they hike a lot and are from So.Cal, they should be well aware how hot it gets. And it’s pretty easy to start feeling overheated.

He was from the UK, not SoCal. It doesn't get nearly as hot in the UK as in the U.S., so he may have underestimated the heat. They lived in San Francisco for years before moving to Mariposa.

She was from Orange, CA, which apparently gets into the 80s/90s during the summer. You might expect her to know about heat dangers, but it's entirely possible that depending on how she spent her time in SoCal--social circles, whether she paid attention to local news, whether she hiked then, etc.--that she wouldn't have been aware of the dangers of heat. (Side note: I've lived in SoCal for a decade, but closer to the coast, and I hike fairly frequently. I didn't know until this tragedy happened that water alone can't prevent heat stroke. I see now that I can prepare better for hiking.)

I also noticed he was 15 years older (she was only 30), which leads me to wonder what their relationship dynamics were like and if that played a role in their decision to go on the hike.

 

[Parsnip]

Presumably, if the dog were incapacitated and had to be carried, there would have been a lack of canine prints while the adult prints continued along the trail. The only prints mentioned, though, are at the trailhead. And with a SAR operation, any prints would likely be obfuscated. I continue to try to put pieces together to support various theories only to hit a knowledge wall. Sigh.

 

[lotus777]

I’m not sure what you mean? That’s basically what I said. I didn’t name the trails, but I’m just saying I don’t think they hiked downhill for 1.5 miles and died there like I’ve seen some people wonder. I think it’s more likely they hiked down to the river and were on the way back up to the trailhead when they died, whether they did the loop or just Savage Lundy down and back up. Maybe I’m saying it in a confusing way.

Oh, I see what you mean now! I misinterpreted your original post.

 

[annpats]

He was from the UK, not SoCal. It doesn't get nearly as hot in the UK as in the U.S.

That is the truth. 25°C (77°F) would be warm day for us Brits.

 

[happyday]

Oh, I see what you mean now! I misinterpreted your original post.

No problem—I am having one of those days where my own words are confusing even me!

 

[SpideySense]

Presumably, if the dog were incapacitated and had to be carried, there would have been a lack of canine prints while the adult prints continued along the trail. The only prints mentioned, though, are at the trailhead. And with a SAR operation, any prints would likely be obfuscated. I continue to try to put pieces together to support various theories only to hit a knowledge wall. Sigh.

You raise a really really good point that I think will make for a pretty detailed timeline when LE releases its final report. Their tracks are going to be key. We already know the first LE on site followed their tracks. The LE who found them came down from the part of the trail they hadn’t yet traversed, and nobody else we know of was on that trail. Those tracks could tell the entire story of their day.

In all the similar cases like this, I’m amazed how well LE can create a timeline and story of what happened to a deceased in the time leading up to their death by looking at where they went.

If they spent time in the river, LE will find tracks and paw prints and buttprints (not official term, lol). If they seemed to stagger or hang out in one place for some time, that may be seen too. If there was backtracking for some reason, that should show. And like you say, if the dog was carried, there’d be an absence of pawprints for some stretch.

I’m suddenly confident that LE might actually be able to establish a pretty comprehensive and detailed report about what happened to them over the course of their hike.

 

[rahod1]

That makes more sense. But still, I would expect them to know better and to have checked the weather before starting out.

With all due respect to the family (so tragic), unless they had a gun pointed at their heads, I can see no reason compelling them to take this hike and every reason to abort the hike, if only for the sake of protecting the infant and dog. If not at the start, certainly within the first 30 min MAX. JUST MOO

 

[Sarahlou]

Regarding him being from the UK, I don't think that is a reason for not knowing you don't go hiking in weather like that. I'm from the UK and I'd know not to go hiking in that heat, especially with a baby and dog. It just seems unfathomable really as to why you would do that.

Unless of course you intended to not return from the hike. But I just don't think that's the case here anymore.

 

[lotus777]

You raise a really really good point that I think will make for a pretty detailed timeline when LE releases its final report. Their tracks are going to be key. We already know the first LE on site followed their tracks. The LE who found them came down from the part of the trail they hadn’t yet traversed, and nobody else we know of was on that trail. Those tracks could tell the entire story of their day.<snip>

The GPS from the phone could do this, if it was on and reachable by the satellites at their lower altitude.

 

[RedHaus]

With all due respect to the family (so tragic), unless they had a gun pointed at their heads, I can see no reason compelling them to take this hike and every reason to abort the hike, if only for the sake of protecting the infant and dog. If not at the start, certainly within the first 30 min MAX. JUST MOO

I agree @rahod1. And I believe the clinical (med / vet) data in this discussion is paramount. It is that data that causes my mind to continue evaluating dark theories for this tragic case. And sadly they are getting darker.

 

[NSamuelle]

Regarding him being from the UK, I don't think that is a reason for not knowing you don't go hiking in weather like that. I'm from the UK and I'd know not to go hiking in that heat, especially with a baby and dog. It just seems unfathomable really as to why you would do that.

Unless of course you intended to not return from the hike. But I just don't think that's the case here anymore.

I also don’t think his birthplace would have much effect on risk assessment of high temps - if anything, he might’ve been more sensitive to high temps if he grew up in a cool climate like UK, and said “this is way too hot / I’m miserable / let’s turn around.”

I grew up in the northeast and start to feel dizzy/weak around 95 degrees because I’m cool-adapted (and Irish ancestry doesn’t help!).

 

[lotus777]

Regarding him being from the UK, I don't think that is a reason for not knowing you don't go hiking in weather like that. I'm from the UK and I'd know not to go hiking in that heat, especially with a baby and dog. It just seems unfathomable really as to why you would do that.

Unless of course you intended to not return from the hike. But I just don't think that's the case here anymore.

I didn't mean to imply anyone from the UK wouldn't know not to hike in the heat. A lot of Americans don't even know it. But it could be a factor. If you look at how many heat-related rescues and deaths there are in the western U.S., it's obvious that not everyone has the common sense to avoid it. There was a runner who died of heat stroke farther west in CA. He was from Virginia originally and had a decent amount of outdoor experience too but didn't know better or had a serious lapse in judgment.

 

[NSamuelle]

The GPS from the phone could do this, if it was on and reachable by the satellites at their lower altitude.

Does anyone know if phones are capable of “dead reckoning”, i.e., even without cell service, being able to record position? I know they can pull attempted calls and texts that didn’t go through due to bad reception (Dutch girls case), but that’s a bit different.

 

[lotus777]

Does anyone know if phones are capable of “dead reckoning”, i.e., even without cell service, being able to record position? I know they can pull attempted calls and texts that didn’t go through due to bad reception (Dutch girls case), but that’s a bit different.

GPS can do this because it relies on satellites. But I saw LE had issues with their satellite phone working there so it might be a moot point (though I wonder if it would have gotten a signal before they got too far on the descent).