CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #3

[HawthorneJuniper]

Thanks for sharing your significant expertise again, RickshawFan. I may check the proper poles out next time I have a chance to spend some time at REI, although it's been easily half a decade since I've done more than a nature walk.

Since safe outdoor recreation is something you are well versed in, in your opinion would it ever be appropriate to hike with poles while also carrying a small child? I can't wrap my head around that, given my own experiences and the safety precautions I'm aware of. (And to be fair, I don't think we know whether either JG or EC was using poles during this hike.) I'm just particularly leery of tread/footing issues when I see them, and I noticed in a link in a post upthread that according to hikers on one of the hiking boards – possibly AllTrails – some sections of the Savage-Lundy trail were in need of repairs earlier this year. In my mind that's further evidence that while JG may have skimmed over information about the trail before deciding on it, there was not a great deal of advance planning put into this family outing.

Honestly, we're a hiking family and we never used a baby backpack. I just never felt it was safe. Same with those front baby carriers. Plus we had twins. The only trails we did when the kids were young were trails where one of us could push the all terrain stroller. But we are fairly risk averse. We tend to intentionally underestimate our ability when planning hikes, as we tend to like less traveled trails so I try to keep the distance/difficulty lower. My boys are 23 now and we're older so we still are very cautious. We've traveled out west for years but I know I personally don't do well in hot conditions. I get hot when it's 70.

I wonder if they weren't really that familiar with hiking with the baby. But it's hard to imagine taking any risk with a child so I can only assume they didn't see it as a risk. Just the weather/heat and the trail itself presented what seems like a substantial risk to me. And I don't know what actually presented the risk to them. Was it just the heat & terrain, a toxic substance, an accident that spiraled? And I just can't help but think how different it would be if they had done a trail with cell reception. That's part of what I look for. And if you know your trails are unlikely to have reception and you go out often you need an emergency device. All the women I know who hike seriously have one. Men? Not so sure.

Oh, and I second the trekking poles. I've had ankle problems and to hike I need to wear substantial hiking boots with good ankle support-I use Salomon Quest 4D, and trekking poles-Black Diamond Distance FLZ. Black Diamond Distance FLZ - Women's Review

 

[Officer Dibble]

Another working week has ended and still no more information from the further autopsy tests.

 

[woods]

Jon made a review on his AllTrails account saying the following: “Cool old mine, some views, big climbs in places.”

Is it possible that they chose this trail to view the mines in the area?

 

[Deleted member 292879]

Jon made a review on his AllTrails account saying the following: “Cool old mine, some views, big climbs in places.”

Is it possible that they chose this trail to view the mines in the area?

I am still inclined to say yes (posted about this in thread 2). At least, I saw from AllTrails that twice Jonathan had gone on hikes to mines that were not listed in AllTrails as destinations (I searched both mines on AllTrails and nothing came up). Whether he meant to go to the mines, or simply happened to find them via signage while hiking, is unclear. But with three mines being on the Hite Cove OHV/Savage-Lundy loop, it certainly seems possible it was a casual interest of his and that he was interested in seeing them.

 

[RickshawFan]

I am still inclined to say yes (posted about this in thread 2). At least, I saw from AllTrails that twice Jonathan had gone on hikes to mines that were not listed in AllTrails as destinations (I searched both mines on AllTrails and nothing came up). Whether he meant to go to the mines, or simply happened to find them via signage while hiking, is unclear. But with three mines being on the Hite Cove OHV/Savage-Lundy loop, it certainly seems possible it was a casual interest of his and that he was interested in seeing them.

There's the old town site in Hites Cove, too. That was a mining operation.

 

[rahod1]

Family’s Death in Sierra National Forest Is Shrouded in Mystery


Sept. 3, 2021, 8:55 a.m. ET


The couple had backpacked in the Himalayas, ridden camels through the Gobi Desert and checked off Burning Man, even creating their own hashtag, an amalgamation of their first names: #jellonadventures.

So a day of hiking in the Sierra National Forest, even with the demanding switchbacks and triple-digit heat, would not have been unusual for Jonathan Gerrish and Ellen Chung…
.

Got to strongly disagree. It appears they were woefully unprepared for the conditions and challenges that day. I wonder if they ever attempted a similar challenge (HEAT and steep trail) with>>the baby and dog in toe? Did they hike ALONE in the Himalayas, Gobi Desert and Burning Man, or did they hike with others who may have been familiar with the respective locations? I think the author of the article made a huge assumption stating the doomed hike would not have been unusual to them. MOO.

 

[SophieRose]

Here's a video from spring 2011 of a motorcycle going up Hites Cove Road (this portion also known as Hites Cove OHV trail) from the river, so in reverse of how the family went that day. Even if they returned this way, trail looks steep and difficult going up. May have thought switchbacks would be easier.

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[NSamuelle]

Got to strongly disagree. It appears they were woefully unprepared for the conditions and challenges that day. I wonder if they ever attempted a similar challenge (HEAT and steep trail) with>>the baby and dog in toe? Did they hike ALONE in the Himalayas, Gobi Desert and Burning Man, or did they hike with others who may have been familiar with the respective locations? I think the author of the article made a huge assumption stating the doomed hike would not have been unusual to them. MOO.

And even if John and Ellen *could* do it, you can’t expose a baby (and dog) to 100+ degree temps over the course of hours - even 15 minutes could be painful!

 

[RedHaus]

And even if John and Ellen *could* do it, you can’t expose a baby (and dog) to 100+ degree temps over the course of hours - even 15 minutes could be painful!

Yes, it's the dependents that haunt me and I suspect many others. I can't imagine what the family went through.

From what your clinical experience as a paramedic has told us, @NSamuelle, as well as veternarian @Runswithdogs analysis for us, by 15m, 20m, 30m in (presuming a start even as early as 8am or 10am) both their dog and infant would have likely been in crisis.

 

[RedHaus]

Got to strongly disagree. It appears they were woefully unprepared for the conditions and challenges that day. I wonder if they ever attempted a similar challenge (HEAT and steep trail) with>>the baby and dog in toe? Did they hike ALONE in the Himalayas, Gobi Desert and Burning Man, or did they hike with others who may have been familiar with the respective locations? I think the author of the article made a huge assumption stating the doomed hike would not have been unusual to them. MOO.

As you say @rahod1, I am not sure many, if any, pair of humans could be prepared to tackle that hike in those conditions with those dependents.

As evidence, experienced hikers that attempt such an endeavor would start hiking just before first light, 6/6:30am based on super hot weather reports. And JG/EC did not even come close if they were seen driving at 7:45am. And if experienced hikers started much later, like 8 or 10am, they'd likely turn around after 15 or 30 minutes because the conditions were untenable.

 

[NSamuelle]

Yes, it's the dependents that haunt me and I suspect many others. I can't imagine what the family went through.

From what your clinical experience as a paramedic has told us, @NSamuelle, as well as veternarian @Runswithdogs analysis for us, by 15m, 20m, 30m in (presuming a start even as early as 8am or 10am) both their dog and infant would have likely been in crisis.

The problem with babies and heat (in simplified terms) is that aside from their general vulnerability and narrow margin of error with homeostasis, they have very little surface area and high body fat. Lanky, tall people are at lowest risk of heatstroke because their bodies can better dissipate heat - babies are the opposite. I can’t bear to think about what she must’ve gone through, especially in a carrier pressed against her father, like being pressed against a warming pad.

 

[RedHaus]

The problem with babies and heat (in simplified terms) is that aside from their general vulnerability and narrow margin of error with homeostasis, they have very little surface area and high body fat. Lanky, tall people are at lowest risk of heatstroke because their bodies can better dissipate heat - babies are the opposite. I can’t bear to think about what she must’ve gone through, especially in a carrier pressed against her father, like being pressed against a warming pad.

Its scientific data, in its sometimes brutal honesty like this, that inclines my mind to hope the investigative results tell us they all died quickly from something other than heat stroke.

 

[MaryG12]

Family’s Death in Sierra National Forest Is Shrouded in Mystery

An incident description said that the agency had received a report of a “suspected illness” in the area. The warning previously made reference to a fatality, but was changed to say illness, The Bee reported.
.........................................

Possibly an illness not related to what we do know of the area where they died?

 

[Speculaytor]

So the article I quoted above states that they believe they have found a hazard just off the trail where the family was found, and that this hazard may be the reason the family died, or contributed to the family dying. This is supposedly "new" information from September 1. They have closed the trail until September 26, due to this find. Do you think they have some results back from a water source that was near them? Why aren't they releasing the information about the hazard they have found?

 

[MaryG12]

So the article I quoted above states that they believe they have found a hazard just off the trail where the family was found, and that this hazard may be the reason the family died, or contributed to the family dying. This is supposedly "new" information from September 1. They have closed the trail until September 26, due to this find. Do you think they have some results back from a water source that was near them? Why aren't they releasing the information about the hazard they have found?

What I am now wondering is: did the LE and first responders who found the family become affected with this hazard too?

 

[Speculaytor]

What I am now wondering is: did the LE and first responders who found the family become affected with this hazard too?

There was no mention of them getting ill. Not that I have seen, anyway.

 

[woods]

Do you think they have some results back from a water source that was near them? Why aren't they releasing the information about the hazard they have found?

Pen said one water test has come back positive for harmful algae bloom. Others have turned up no toxic substances and still other tests are outstanding.
Trails where California family died closed to the public

 

[Sunny Day]

What I am now wondering is: did the LE and first responders who found the family become affected with this hazard too?

As I recall, after the bodies were found, two individuals from LE spend the night sleeping near the bodies in order to guard the scene until daybreak. There was no mention of either of them becoming ill or being affected in any way.

 

[LifeIsAMystery]

There was no mention of them getting ill. Not that I have seen, anyway.

There was a report of one LE being affected by the heat that Tuesday morning. Perhaps it was something else in addition?

 

[woods]

Sheriff Briese said one Rescuer was treated for a health issue related to the heat but was OK.

https://www.fresnobee.com/news/local/article253577919.html