CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #4

[jonjon747]

One explanation is that he sat down and lost consciousness (due to heat exhaustion and hyperthermia) and died very soon after. Rigor Mortis set in and locked him to the position he died in.
Another possibility is that Ellen tried to prop him up after she found him passed out/dead and then rigor mortis would have set in and kept him in that position.

There's still no official update on approx. time of their deaths for whatever reason there may be.
They were found on tuesday morning, so that's about 36 hours after if they perished around or before 6pm on sunday.
On high temperature both internal and externally, I don't know how rigor mortis would have left stiffening effect even after 24 hours later unless they died much later than the aforementioned time.

 

[armchairagatha]

There's still no official update on approx. time of their deaths for whatever reason there may be.
They were found on tuesday morning, so that's about 36 hours after if they perished around or before 6pm on sunday.
On high temperature both internal and externally, I don't know how rigor mortis would have left stiffening effect even after 24 hours later unless they died much later than the aforementioned time.

There are many different sources that indicate that rigor mortis stiffening can easily last for 36 hrs or more. See this for example: What Is Rigor Mortis? How Long Does Rigor Mortis Last?

 

[lotus777]

I can't imagine what sort of "struggle" you think would ensue as someone is overtaken by heat. Can you elaborate? What would you expect to see?

Personally I envision someone feeling lightheaded, then dizzy and disoriented. They might stumble onto their knees and from there sit down -- after removing their pack not just for their own comfort but to check on the baby (and place the baby in the shade of their own body) as well as to check the water supply in the bladder.

They might or might not be aware of the magnitude of the danger facing them. But even if they were, what could they do in response? They can't just decide to sprint to the vehicle, if they are already maxxed out on energy just trudging up a steep hill. There is no shade available nearby. Personally I think a person in that situation might think stopping to rest "for just a moment" might help them to muster the energy needed to continue.

MOO

Exactly. They were downhill from the car, without much shade around if any. There weren't many options.

 

[lotus777]

I've never seen or heard of a case where someone dies of a heatstroke in a seated position.
If this man really got disoriented or exhausted the very last ounce of energy, so can no longer continue, he'd most likely be dead lying on the ground, not sitting with unstrapped stuff beside him.

If he was fine till then and later overtaken by heat like you said,
then it'd be something like he would get up and just wander off to somewhere alone meaninglessly.

I think it's a very unusual circumstance to agree on when someone dying in a seated position is considered natural, because the weight of the head would eventually push down the neck and upper body to one side.

If he was found with face down and upper body forward, maybe he just fell asleep, but who does sleep easy at 100F+ temp?

IDK it just doesn't make much sense to me. MOO

Never hearing about someone dying of heat stroke in a seated position doesn't mean it hasn't or couldn't happen.

He also could have been leaning against a tree or slumped forward. Him being in a seated position indicates nothing about the likelihood of heat stroke.

 

[HawthorneJuniper]

Do you think they got confused?

I've wondered about that. But honestly, even the "regular" Hites Cove Trail is not one to be done in summer. But it is also fairly well known and popular, but in spring. We were there in late April-early May and even then the exposed hikes in that area were too hot for me. But I'm a New Englander and 70 is "hot" to me for hiking so I'm probably a bad example.

I always bring topo maps & guide books that have been recommended as accurate. I attached the Hites Cove description from one I used. Everything I read about it said not to do it in summer.

I don't quite understand WHY they would hike where they did. There's so many higher elevation hikes nearby, like along Glacier Point Rd (where we retreated-there was still snow on the trails & the rd had just opened, earliest ever on 4/30).

So, were they confused? I don't know. Most people would begin the Hites Cove Trail as indicated in my attachment-from Highway 140. Because they were coming from Mariposa perhaps they did get confused as they drove in on "back roads" through Jerseydale. I've never driven in there so don't know what the signage is like. Driving in that way, if they were planning to hike Hites Cove trail, it would have been from what's normally the "end" for people hiking in from 140. There's just nothing about Savage Lundy that would make it a "reasonable" hike to do on that day so maybe some kind of confusion?

Or were they just much less experienced in those conditions than they thought? It's a very long hike they were doing on a hot day. It doesn't sound in any way enjoyable at any point but at least going down was not as unpleasant. But this also points to what I consider a bad idea to embark on a hike where the most difficult part is on the way back. I'd always seek to gain elevation at the beginning, on the way out particularly on a warm day-basically just common sense. And no matter which way they went it was going to be uphill on the way back. And only the actual Hites Cove Trail actually follows the river. Savage Lundy is down & back through a, IMO, an extremely un-scenic area in an area of stunningly beautiful places.

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

I agree it is hard for us to imagine. But if it's a safe assumption that they were walking until they couldn't walk anymore, and then something happened that took longer than a heart attack or stroke (from which a person might be immediately killed so that they just fall from a standing position) but not so slowly that they could just keep walking, it makes sense to me they might sit down to try to get clearheaded, or to drink water, or to check the baby. Or, also possible, wander or try to keep going, as matches the physical position in which EC was found.

We don't know what was really meant by JG being in a seated position -- was he cross-legged? Or leaning his back against a boulder or the cut slope of the trail? Maybe his knees were bent and he was leaning forward with his elbows were resting on them? Maybe he had fallen over or slumped over but it looked like he had been seated before that happened? I agree with you he didn't fall asleep, but fainting or being dizzy to the point of falling unconscious (such as might happen with too low blood pressure) both seem like reasonable possibilities to me.

IMO it sounds like an odd phrasing to us because it evokes an unrealistic image of someone sitting bolt upright with no support -- but with a little thought we can see there are other possible scenarios, and the LE priority at this stage is not elucidating details to the public. MOO and I hope we eventually understand what happened to this family.

Yes, I think "found in a seated position" just means it was evident the person sat down and died. After losing consciousness it's possible or probable the person slumped to one side, backward, forward, whatever, but looking at the position of the body, it was evident they had been sitting. Suppose someone was crawling when they collapsed and died, one might describe that as "found in a crawling position." Of course it wouldn't mean they were frozen in a crawling position, just that you could look at the body and it would be obvious they had been crawling and then died. MOO

 

[NSamuelle]

Is it possible that LE won’t release the COD to the public, only family? We’re headed into 6 weeks, which was the upper estimate for “expedited” toxicology reports (they were expedited here). No results from the necropsy have been released, so we don’t even know how the dog died. Is this kind of delay normal?

 

[Angleterre]

Is it possible that LE won’t release the COD to the public, only family? We’re headed into 6 weeks, which was the upper estimate for “expedited” toxicology reports (they were expedited here). No results from the necropsy have been released, so we don’t even know how the dog died. Is this kind of delay normal?

Again I can’t answer for the USA, only for the U.K. but if I faced this scenario and as lead investigator SIO, I created a Murder investigation policy book and conveyed a team of Detectives to find out what happened, one of the first actions would be to get the Home Office Forensic Pathologist to the scene and consider if I needed other experts to assist for example an Anthropologist who studies human behaviours. A HO Post Mortem would more than likely take place that same day and I would be in attendance with the forensic pathologist whilst he/she works. At the end of the post mortem , the Pathologist would give me an unofficial verbal report of what he believed happened and a cause of death and this would be followed up in a written official report within the following 2-4 weeks if required for initial Crown Court appearance if a crime is involved but otherwise, a report on a situation like this, depending on their schedule would be written up once the Toxicology Results were back from the Lab and would be submitted but this on average would take around 12 weeks to come back with any identifying details that may or may not contribute to finding out what happened etc
Just MOO

 

[NSamuelle]

Again I can’t answer for the USA, only for the U.K. but if I faced this scenario and as lead investigator SIO, I created a Murder investigation policy book and conveyed a team of Detectives to find out what happened, one of the first actions would be to get the Home Office Forensic Pathologist to the scene and consider if I needed other experts to assist for example an Anthropologist who studies human behaviours. A HO Post Mortem would more than likely take place that same day and I would be in attendance with the forensic pathologist whilst he/she works. At the end of the post mortem , the Pathologist would give me an unofficial verbal report of what he believed happened and a cause of death and this would be followed up in a written official report within the following 2-4 weeks if required for initial Crown Court appearance if a crime is involved but otherwise, a report on a situation like this, depending on their schedule would be written up once the Toxicology Results were back from the Lab and would be submitted but this on average would take around 12 weeks to come back with any identifying details that may or may not contribute to finding out what happened etc
Just MOO

Thank you; it’s great to hear from someone with experience! When tox is delayed in the UK, is that typically because of a backlog or does it actually take that long to get certain results?

 

[HawthorneJuniper]

My name is Paul, and I'm a map-a-holic. Paper, electronic, they're both good, I have a printer and a scanner, so one can become the other. It's hard to come by a paper map these days, I download them or use mapping software to create one. I use Google Maps and Earth a lot, it's very cool to see what the landscape looks like, often I can see trails that are not on the map. I don't use a phone though, perhaps that's what you mean, too small. I'm so old I used to have a crush on Mrs Emma Peel.

I can relate! My husband was a huge hiker with his brothers and they did tons of backbacking trips so we have trail maps going back to the 80's. I came along in the 90's and have added to our collection which now needs to get whittled down. I have always loved maps and have state atlases, topo maps, trail maps, forest service maps and so on. I am a better navigator than my husband as I also always read trail descriptions while he only uses maps. So I now pick our hikes as I am much more particular given my heat sensitivity.

I wonder how much they KNEW about the trail & conditions as opposed to just knowing it was fairly close to their house and goes down to the river. I don't know but any look at that trail on a map on a hot day would have made me say "no way". Probably even on a cool day. As I've said we were there late April and the exposed, fire burned areas were too hot for me. Plus they aren't attractive or interesting, at least to me, except for some of the burned Sequoias.

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

Is it possible that LE won’t release the COD to the public, only family? We’re headed into 6 weeks, which was the upper estimate for “expedited” toxicology reports (they were expedited here). No results from the necropsy have been released, so we don’t even know how the dog died. Is this kind of delay normal?

I thought it was public information, but looked it up to be sure: "Informational copies of death certificates are considered public records in California" I think this is a difficult case, the signs of heat stroke are subtle and the bodies lay in the sun on three days. Compared with a bullet hole, which is a very popular cause of death in the USA, it's going to take longer. I'm sure by now they know a lot more, like the test results on their remaining water. It is important to be thorough, but I don't think keeping us informed is a high priority.

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

I can relate! My husband was a huge hiker with his brothers and they did tons of backbacking trips so we have trail maps going back to the 80's. I came along in the 90's and have added to our collection which now needs to get whittled down. I have always loved maps and have state atlases, topo maps, trail maps, forest service maps and so on. I am a better navigator than my husband as I also always read trail descriptions while he only uses maps. So I now pick our hikes as I am much more particular given my heat sensitivity.

I wonder how much they KNEW about the trail & conditions as opposed to just knowing it was fairly close to their house and goes down to the river. I don't know but any look at that trail on a map on a hot day would have made me say "no way". Probably even on a cool day. As I've said we were there late April and the exposed, fire burned areas were too hot for me. Plus they aren't attractive or interesting, at least to me, except for some of the burned Sequoias.

Oh, a kindred spirit! Yeah, researching and planning a new hike is part of my enjoyment of the whole experience. I wouldn't say I'm especially heat sensitive, but I'm not a masochist and part of my planning process is "what would be fun", i.e. seasonal. I'm 45 minutes from the coast, so if it's hot I can go out there. I only do local peaks in cool weather. I agree, the HCT/SLT loop does not sound like fun. Ugly this time of year, besides the whole fatal thing. We have a local hike, Austin Creek State Recreation Area that is a "Lite" version of the HCT/SLT. We call it "The Death Hike": you park at the top, hike to the creeks at the bottom, it's beautiful, everything is great until you run out of water and have a 1000' climb out, with the sun frying you. I'll attach a beautiful photo. I didn't take any as I was suffering on the SLT-style climb out.

 

[RickshawFan]

I've never seen or heard of a case where someone dies of a heatstroke in a seated position.
If this man really got disoriented or exhausted the very last ounce of energy, so can no longer continue, he'd most likely be dead lying on the ground, not sitting with unstrapped stuff beside him.

If he was fine till then and later overtaken by heat like you said,
then it'd be something like he would get up and just wander off to somewhere alone meaninglessly.

I think it's a very unusual circumstance to agree on when someone dying in a seated position is considered natural, because the weight of the head would eventually push down the neck and upper body to one side.

If he was found with face down and upper body forward, maybe he just fell asleep, but who does sleep easy at 100F+ temp?

IDK it just doesn't make much sense to me. MOO

IMO he was seated while waiting for EC who was coming down the trail from uphill.

So far, we haven't been presented with any definitive evidence that footprints went along the trail by the river. It is also likely that some footprints were occluded by LE when they went searching for the family late at night. The family may have started down the HC trail, come back, didn't come back, kept going, went 2 days in a row....

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

IMO he was seated while waiting for EC who was coming down the trail from uphill.

So far, we haven't been presented with any definitive evidence that footprints went along the trail by the river. It is also likely that some footprints were occluded by LE when they went searching for the family late at night. The family may have started down the HC trail, come back, didn't come back, kept going, went 2 days in a row....

The only evidence I've seen is from the sheriff: "Briese said they believe the family was returning to their truck." Source: the often quoted Not One Clue Chronicle article. There has been no detail on the position of EC's body, but the sheriff would have known whether she was facing uphill or down when he made that statement.

 

[Angleterre]

Thank you; it’s great to hear from someone with experience! When tox is delayed in the UK, is that typically because of a backlog or does it actually take that long to get certain results?

I’m not totally sure, I think a mixture of both.

 

[Recidivist]

I wonder if the closed trails and campgrounds will be open starting tomorrow, or if the closure order will be extended?


Trails and campgrounds near Yosemite where Northern California family and their dog were found dead have been closed because of ‘unknown hazards,’ officials say


“Designated recreation sites, roads, and trails in proximity and/or leading to this location will be off limits to public,” the national forest said in a statement Saturday. The closures are effective until September 26.

Trails and campgrounds near Yosemite where Northern California family and their dog were found dead have been closed because of 'unknown hazards,' (mercurynews.com)

 

[jonjon747]

IMO he was seated while waiting for EC who was coming down the trail from uphill.

So far, we haven't been presented with any definitive evidence that footprints went along the trail by the river. It is also likely that some footprints were occluded by LE when they went searching for the family late at night. The family may have started down the HC trail, come back, didn't come back, kept going, went 2 days in a row....

EC's body was found facing toward the direction where their vehicle was.
I think they did hike for maybe a couple of hours or more because evidently not much water was left.
That doesn't mean that they were really actively hiking on the difficult trails though, especially with their baby and their dog together.
I'd be more convinced to believe that they were just hiking casually, be out in the sun just enjoying nature with the baby and dog, and probably head back home or for lunch before noon.
That's what most family would do in such circumstances, if not all.
Considering a crazy theory like they went out on binge hiking going full aggressive mode with a year old baby? I think that's gotta be considered a long shot theory.

 

[Andreee]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed> ... As far as the Gerrish/Chung family, is there any word yet on when the toxicology report will be released? I recall there was supposedly a 'push' to get it through due to concerns about this area of the park and what caused their demise. Although, the heat was obviously a big factor.

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Numerous posts have been removed as off topic.

This discussion is dedicated to the case of Jonathan, Ellen, their little girl and the family dog. Please stop discussing another case within this thread. It is not the Philip Kreycik discussion. It gets to the point the reader doesn't know who is being discussed.

And don't be second guessing LE. Oddly enough .. they know a heck of a lot more about the details of this case than we do so please don't assume otherwise.

Also, do not state information as fact when it is really just your opinion. If it is fact, you need to be able to support it with a link to an approved source; if it is just your opinion, you must make that clear.

Thank you to everyone for understanding and posting responsibly.

Sillybilly
WS Admin

 

[LifeIsAMystery]

Is it possible that LE won’t release the COD to the public, only family? We’re headed into 6 weeks, which was the upper estimate for “expedited” toxicology reports (they were expedited here). No results from the necropsy have been released, so we don’t even know how the dog died. Is this kind of delay normal?

Perfectly normal and in the timeframe stated by LE.