CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #5

[wary]

The sheriff’s office says many toxicology reports have returned, but the content of those reports is not disclosed at this time.

Officials say they are still waiting for some “significant results” and the timeline for their reporting was not immediately apparent.

More causes of death ruled out in case of Mariposa County family found dead on hiking trail - California News Times

Anyone else find the secrecy regarding tox’ reports suspicious?
Moo

MOO

No, I find it ordinary.

MOO

 

[PerplexedPatty]

MOO

No, I find it ordinary.

MOO

I find absolutely nothing about this case “ordinary” including the secrecy surrounding the type of tox’ tests returned. I guess none apply to public health like environmental issues from algae mats, blooms, water. Moo

 

[PerplexedPatty]

Idk if anyone ever posted this:

A memorial tribute for Jonathan Gerrish | Robolectric

 

[PerplexedPatty]

More from Roboelectric:

Blog | Robolectric

 

[RickshawFan]

Finding bodily fluids would be normal after death and in the heat likely dried. Moo
And
7 Things That Happen When You Die That'll Make You Glad You're Dead For Them

And there likely would be residue or staining on their clothing.

 

[RickshawFan]

One thing notably absent from the “ruled out” list is Rx drugs. Also, overdose (accidental death). Some of the most powerful drugs known are “legal” when prescribed for proper use.

It is not difficult for a drug to be added to food, beverage or weed. We don’t know if the family went out for breakfast or if someone brought food to their home.

Since we are on hold for “key tox’ reports” it seems logical to assume CoD will be something that only tox’ analysis can determine, including environmental toxins.

Link provides info on “legal” drugs that can prove fatal.
Deadliest Drugs in America | Fentanyl Epidemic & Addiction Treatment

MOO and I certainly have no idea if anyone wished this family harm.

My post removed for inaccuracy.

 

[RickshawFan]

There is no shortage of fatal toxins that could somehow land in water or food. I’m totally guessing but feel it will be 2-4 weeks before tests results come back. IF a foreign toxic substance has been discovered in the water bottle, it proves nothing, tests still need to prove if anyone ingested it as well as how much. MOO

I bet a lot of us had no idea this plant can be deadly.

yellow oleander poisoning: Topics by Science.gov

There's no vegetation on those switchbacks. Everything was destroyed by fire. So, I think we can eliminate oleander.
IMO, at this point, we're really reaching for unlikely alternatives. Even if something was ingested, the exertion combined with the conditions were not survivable. IMO
For this kind of perplexity, I'd go with the old adage: if you see a creature bigger than you, with 4 legs, a mane, hooves, a long face, long neck, and substantial tail, think horse, not zebra. The odds of the zebra diagnosis are minuscule.

 

[PerplexedPatty]

Sixteenth century scientist Paracelsus gave us the adage “the dose makes the poison”. Basically, he surmised that a certain amount of every substance, even water and air, can be toxic and those amounts can differ somewhat from person to person and substance to substance.
http://www.forensicsciencesimplified.org/tox/Toxicology.pdf

this is a really good read, as well as easy!

 

[PerplexedPatty]

There's no vegetation on those switchbacks. Everything was destroyed by fire. So, I think we can eliminate oleander.
IMO, at this point, we're really reaching for unlikely alternatives. Even if something was ingested, the exertion combined with the conditions were not survivable. IMO

I mentioned oleander not because I thought it caused 4 deaths, only as an example of fatal vegetation. Moo

 

[PerplexedPatty]

IMO, at this point, we're really reaching for unlikely alternatives. Even if something was ingested, the exertion combined with the conditions were not survivable.

I’m not looking for alternatives as I believe they reached the end much earlier than some believe, and died soon thereafter from an unknown toxin still in the process of being identified. Moo

 

[RickshawFan]

I’m not looking for alternatives as I believe they reached the end much earlier than some believe, and died soon thereafter from an unknown toxin still in the process of being identified. Moo

I actually believe they only did the mile and a half plus maybe a bit more down the S-L trail (i.e. not the Hite Cove trail). IMO that exertion, with that weight (i.e. the baby), in those hours, on that day would not be survivable in 1 1/2 miles, especially if they were having trouble with the dog.
For me, I'd want to commit to the loop idea only if they found appropriate footprints going all the way around the loop in a clockwise direction, as well as a poopy diaper or two.

 

[rahod1]

I actually believe they only did the mile and a half plus maybe a bit more down the S-L trail (i.e. not the Hite Cove trail). IMO that exertion, with that weight (i.e. the baby), in those hours, on that day would not be survivable in 1 1/2 miles, especially if they were having trouble with the dog.
For me, I'd want to commit to the loop idea only if they found appropriate footprints going all the way around the loop in a clockwise direction, as well as a poopy diaper or two.

LE has reason to believe they took the entire loop because they found prints on HC Trail going down hill which were compatible with family and dog. They were found FACING UP HILL on SL.
In order to confirm your scenario, there would be prints going DOWN SL and none going down HC Trail. Am I missing something?

 

[RickshawFan]

LE has reason to believe they took the entire loop because they found prints on HC Trail going down hill which were compatible with family and dog. They were found FACING UP HILL on SL.
In order to confirm your scenario, there would be prints going DOWN SL and none going down HC Trail. Am I missing something?

IIRC we only have messaging that there were footprints that could be attributed to the family going down Hite Cove trail. I don’t recall hearing about other footprints at all. But maybe there’s been a statement to that effect? What if they went down Hites Cove on a previous outing, and S-L was to be and out and back hike?
The only way we’d know if it was an all at-once loop trip is if we had footprints going the along the Merced leg in a clockwise direction.
And there would likely be dirty diapers signaling a lengthy hike.

 

[rahod1]

IIRC we only have messaging that there were footprints that could be attributed to the family going down Hite Cove trail. I don’t recall hearing about other footprints at all. But maybe there’s been a statement to that effect? What if they went down Hites Cove on a previous outing, and S-L was to be and out and back hike?
The only way we’d know if it was an all at-once loop trip is if we had footprints going the along the Merced leg in a clockwise direction.

Yes...there should be prints along the river as well. LE , per the SF Chronicle article, indicated they took the entire loop and noticed prints going down HC Trail. They haven't elaborated on further prints, but neither have they revised the original thesis that they took the loop.

 

[everybodhi]

Bolded by the publication, not me.
pathophysiology of heat-related illness and death :: www.forensicmed.co.uk

Heat-related illness can occur when high ambient temperature exceeds the ability of the body to dissipate heat.

Multi-organ failure is the ultimate mode of death, and heat-related mortality is high – ranging between 33 and 80%.

The post-mortem diagnosis of heat-related deaths presents certain difficulties.

Firstly, pre-terminal or terminal body temperatures are often not available. Additionally, naked-eye and microscopic findings are non-specific or inconclusive and depend on the duration of survival after exposure.

The diagnosis of hyperthermia is based on scene investigation, the circumstances of death, and the reasonable exclusion of other causes of death.

A heat-related cause of death may be assumed if the investigations provide compelling evidence of continuous exposure to a hot environment, and fail to identify an independent cause of death (Nixdorf-Miller et al 2006, and Palmiere and Mangin 2013).

The non-specific post-mortem findings in cases of fatal heatstroke include: pulmonary and cerebral oedema, necrosis of the liver, neuronal degeneration of the brain, rhabdomyolysis (breakdown of muscle), tubular casts in the kidneys and signs of disseminated intravascular coagulation e.g. fibrin thrombi in small blood vessels (Palmiere and Mangin 2013).

The post-mortem biochemistry findings are related to dehydration, electrolyte disturbance and skeletal muscle damage. They include increased serum creatinine, mild-to-moderate elevation of urea, and myoglobinuria, however, the diagnosis of heat-related fatalities cannot be based on post-mortem biochemical analyses alone (Palmiere and Mangin 2013).

Why some cases progress to heatstroke and others do not is unclear but it appears that genetic differences (polymorphisms) may determine susceptibility i.e. it is likely there is an individual variability to tolerating temperature changes (Epstein and Roberts 2011, Sucholeiki 2005, and Yeo 2004).

 

[jonjon747]

I actually believe they only did the mile and a half plus maybe a bit more down the S-L trail (i.e. not the Hite Cove trail). IMO that exertion, with that weight (i.e. the baby), in those hours, on that day would not be survivable in 1 1/2 miles, especially if they were having trouble with the dog.
For me, I'd want to commit to the loop idea only if they found appropriate footprints going all the way around the loop in a clockwise direction, as well as a poopy diaper or two.

I'd imagine them going down the SL trail is somewhat plausible.

The thing that bothers me though is that
there's no record or past history of JG ever researching for the SL trail.
That is because there is not a single hiking trail app that covers the SL trail.
Could he have just pulled out a map, paper or online and decided to just go for it?
With their baby and their dog?
I have a hard time accepting such theory as highly likely.

 

[rahod1]

I'd imagine them going down the SL trail is somewhat plausible.

The thing that bothers me though is that
there's no record or past history of JG ever researching for the SL trail.
That is because there is not a single hiking trail app that covers the SL trail.
Could he have just pulled out a map, paper or online and decided to just go for it?
With their baby and their dog?
I have a hard time accepting a such theory as highly likely.

Initially they may have only decided to hike DOWN HC to the river and back. However, by the time they got down to the river, it was HOT and there was the daunting task of hiking back UP HC Trail.
Perhaps they then decided to continue along the river (flat with some shade), hoping the loop back up SL would be easier. MOO

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

Good point, I just presumed that they would have acted differently if suffering from heat stroke, like disrobing, ending up off trail, etc.

I have read of instances of those behaviors in heat stroke victims, particularly wandering off the trail. But they don't seem to always happen. The Mayo Clinic has some info on the symptoms- "Altered mental state or behavior. Confusion, agitation, slurred speech, irritability, delirium, seizures and coma can all result from heatstroke." I think their behavior is unpredictable, and partly dependent on how long it takes to go from "confusion" to "coma". MOO.

 

[jonjon747]

Bolded by the publication, not me.
pathophysiology of heat-related illness and death :: www.forensicmed.co.uk

Heat-related illness can occur when high ambient temperature exceeds the ability of the body to dissipate heat.

Multi-organ failure is the ultimate mode of death, and heat-related mortality is high – ranging between 33 and 80%.

The post-mortem diagnosis of heat-related deaths presents certain difficulties.

Firstly, pre-terminal or terminal body temperatures are often not available. Additionally, naked-eye and microscopic findings are non-specific or inconclusive and depend on the duration of survival after exposure.

The diagnosis of hyperthermia is based on scene investigation, the circumstances of death, and the reasonable exclusion of other causes of death.

A heat-related cause of death may be assumed if the investigations provide compelling evidence of continuous exposure to a hot environment, and fail to identify an independent cause of death (Nixdorf-Miller et al 2006, and Palmiere and Mangin 2013).

The non-specific post-mortem findings in cases of fatal heatstroke include: pulmonary and cerebral oedema, necrosis of the liver, neuronal degeneration of the brain, rhabdomyolysis (breakdown of muscle), tubular casts in the kidneys and signs of disseminated intravascular coagulation e.g. fibrin thrombi in small blood vessels (Palmiere and Mangin 2013).

The post-mortem biochemistry findings are related to dehydration, electrolyte disturbance and skeletal muscle damage. They include increased serum creatinine, mild-to-moderate elevation of urea, and myoglobinuria, however, the diagnosis of heat-related fatalities cannot be based on post-mortem biochemical analyses alone (Palmiere and Mangin 2013).

Why some cases progress to heatstroke and others do not is unclear but it appears that genetic differences (polymorphisms) may determine susceptibility i.e. it is likely there is an individual variability to tolerating temperature changes (Epstein and Roberts 2011, Sucholeiki 2005, and Yeo 2004).

How common is it that not one, out of four bodies can be determined the cod as heat-related?

 

[rahod1]

How common is it that not one, out CODof four bodies can be determined the cod as heat-related?

I posted previously that COD in HS is very problematic and difficult to establish as a prima facie cause. It's often established by ruling OUT ALL OTHER POSSIBLE CAUSES. MOO