CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #5

[jonjon747]

I have read of instances of those behaviors in heat stroke victims, particularly wandering off the trail. But they don't seem to always happen. The Mayo Clinic has some info on the symptoms- "Altered mental state or behavior. Confusion, agitation, slurred speech, irritability, delirium, seizures and coma can all result from heatstroke." I think their behavior is unpredictable, and partly dependent on how long it takes to go from "confusion" to "coma". MOO.

• High body temperature. A core body temperature of 104 F (40 C) or higher, obtained with a rectal thermometer, is the main sign of heatstroke.
• Altered mental state or behavior. Confusion, agitation, slurred speech, irritability, delirium, seizures and coma can all result from heatstroke.
• Alteration in sweating. In heatstroke brought on by hot weather, your skin will feel hot and dry to the touch. However, in heatstroke brought on by strenuous exercise, your skin may feel dry or slightly moist.
• Nausea and vomiting. You may feel sick to your stomach or vomit.
• Flushed skin. Your skin may turn red as your body temperature increases.
• Rapid breathing. Your breathing may become rapid and shallow.
• Racing heart rate. Your pulse may significantly increase because heat stress places a tremendous burden on your heart to help cool your body.
• Headache. Your head may throb.

I'm not sure that the list above would apply to all people, especially to experienced hikers.
Hikers with onset of heatstroke would cause them to wander around much, just because maybe that's what they've been doing all along?
MOO

 

[everybodhi]

How common is it that not one, out of four bodies can be determined the cod as heat-related?

We don't know if one out of four can not be determined, we have to wait for the autopsies to be complete before there is a COD to report.
To determine heat as the cause, they will first rule out every other possibilitity for the state of the body. In cases such as this, they don't know the body temperature leading up to and at the time of death, as there was no pre mortum hospitalization.
But there are thousands of deaths that are ruled to be heat related every year and they are increasing, from what I've been reading in science puplications, there are more than are reported in autopsies.

Criteria for the Diagnosis of Heat-Related Deaths: National ... : The American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology

Lack of a uniform definition for heat-related death has produced wide variation in the criteria used to certify these deaths. The most stringent definition of heat-related death requires an antemortem body temperature of ≥105°F (≥40.6°C) without other reasonable explanation. This definition precludes certifying any death as heat-related if the body temperature was not measured and drastically underestimates heat-related mortality

ETA: autopsies are regulated by county, so a result in SF County may be different than a result in Maricopa.

California - Coroner/ME Laws | CDC

 

[jonjon747]

I posted previously that COD in HS is very problematic and difficult to establish as a prima facie cause. It's often established by ruling OUT ALL OTHER POSSIBLE CAUSES. MOO

I'm aware of such difficulty in dealing with heatstroke as the primary cod, but here we got 4 bodies.
The baby wasn't moving much at all I'd have to guess in terms of the activity level in hiking,
and the dog I suppose has a different body mechanism than humans.
Can't autopsy experts or coroners find anything, I mean any clue from those 4 bodies?

 

[jonjon747]

Initially they may have only decided to hike DOWN HC to the river and back. However, by the time they got down to the river, it was HOT and there was the daunting task of hiking back UP HC Trail.
Perhaps they then decided to continue along the river (flat with some shade), hoping the loop back up SL would be easier. MOO

Yes, that scenario imo is plausible only if JG or EC knew exactly where they were going and felt confident enough about upcoming trail.
I haven't yet to find an article that mentions about their deep or enough knowledge about SL trail, other than they just lived around that area for about a year or two?
Were they feeling really confident to try the new trail that not a single trails app even covered?
Map is all they could've relied on and even by knowing the difficulty level, dealing with the steepness of uphill and with not much trees around,
how desperate were they to hike really?

I just have a hard time buying that story.

 

[everybodhi]

I'm aware of such difficulty in dealing with heatstroke as the primary cod, but here we got 4 bodies.
The baby wasn't moving much at all I'd have to guess in terms of the activity level in hiking,
and the dog I suppose has a different body mechanism than humans.
Can't autopsy experts or coroners find anything, I mean any clue from those 4 bodies?

There are many posts in the threads here with links about the higher suseptabilty to heat in babies and dogs and in depth science on heat stroke, it can occur whether you’re physically active or idle.
No amount of acclimation or athletic physicality can protect you from a deadly body core temperature.
I live 500 miles from the equator and as in all countries acclimated to my climate, everything stops in the heat of the day because they have respect and knowledge of the body's limitations in heat. Even the dogs and cats are still and quiet.
I don't know why you have come to the conclusion that experts and coroner's cannot find anything.
The process is not complete.

 

[jonjon747]

There are many posts in the threads here with links about the higher suseptabilty to heat in babies and dogs and in depth science on heat stroke, it can occur whether you’re physically active or idle.
No amount of acclimation or athletic physicality can protect you from a deadly body core temperature.
I live 500 miles from the equator and as in all countries acclimated to my climate, everything stops in the heat of the day because they have respect and knowledge of the body's limitations in heat. Even the dogs and cats are still and quiet.
I don't know why you have come to the conclusion that experts and coroner's cannot find anything.
The process is not complete.

Very good question.
I would've imagined LE to have announced by now something like this, after their initial autopsies AND after poisonous gas, homicide, suicide and so on were all ruled out.
COD
Dog - overheat
Baby - overheat
JG - still unknown
EC - still unknown

I mean how difficult is it to determine the cod for the baby and the dog?
Like you've said, them being more susceptible to heat, I don't think toxic test will give us any new clues for the baby and dog.

MOO

 

[ItalyReader]

Very good question.
I would've imagined LE to have announced by now something like this, after their initial autopsies AND after poisonous gas, homicide, suicide and so on were all ruled out.
COD
Dog - overheat
Baby - overheat
JG - still unknown
EC - still unknown

I mean how difficult is it to determine the cod for the baby and the dog?
Like you've said, them being more susceptible to heat, I don't think toxic test will give us any new clues for the baby and dog.

MOO

JonJon, I agree with you that heat may seem obvious for baby and dog, but officially LE
has to follow certain procedures and protocols during their investigation before any formal determination.

They have to complete all toxicity and other tests before declaring any reason of death. Even if it might seem to you that toxicity is unlikely in baby and dog, LE will follow its protocols before releasing any determination, in order to clearly rule out other causes. If they jumped on the seemingly obvious without due process they would be irresponsible and we wouldn’t like it even more.

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

Bolded by the publication, not me.
pathophysiology of heat-related illness and death :: www.forensicmed.co.uk

Heat-related illness can occur when high ambient temperature exceeds the ability of the body to dissipate heat.

Multi-organ failure is the ultimate mode of death, and heat-related mortality is high – ranging between 33 and 80%.

The post-mortem diagnosis of heat-related deaths presents certain difficulties.

Firstly, pre-terminal or terminal body temperatures are often not available. Additionally, naked-eye and microscopic findings are non-specific or inconclusive and depend on the duration of survival after exposure.

The diagnosis of hyperthermia is based on scene investigation, the circumstances of death, and the reasonable exclusion of other causes of death.

A heat-related cause of death may be assumed if the investigations provide compelling evidence of continuous exposure to a hot environment, and fail to identify an independent cause of death (Nixdorf-Miller et al 2006, and Palmiere and Mangin 2013).

The non-specific post-mortem findings in cases of fatal heatstroke include: pulmonary and cerebral oedema, necrosis of the liver, neuronal degeneration of the brain, rhabdomyolysis (breakdown of muscle), tubular casts in the kidneys and signs of disseminated intravascular coagulation e.g. fibrin thrombi in small blood vessels (Palmiere and Mangin 2013).

The post-mortem biochemistry findings are related to dehydration, electrolyte disturbance and skeletal muscle damage. They include increased serum creatinine, mild-to-moderate elevation of urea, and myoglobinuria, however, the diagnosis of heat-related fatalities cannot be based on post-mortem biochemical analyses alone (Palmiere and Mangin 2013).

Why some cases progress to heatstroke and others do not is unclear but it appears that genetic differences (polymorphisms) may determine susceptibility i.e. it is likely there is an individual variability to tolerating temperature changes (Epstein and Roberts 2011, Sucholeiki 2005, and Yeo 2004).

Good article. To go along with it, here is a news article on a recent heat-related death in Death Valley. Below the article it says "related" and has three more, two from the last couple of months and one from last year.
Another Hiker Fatality in Death Valley.

 

[everybodhi]

Good article. To go along with it, here is a news article on a recent heat-related death in Death Valley. Below the article it says "related" and has three more, two from the last couple of months and one from last year.
Another Hiker Fatality in Death Valley.

This chart gives some more perspective of the changes we are experiencing.

Climate Change Indicators: Heat-Related Deaths | US EPA

 

[Pumphouse363]

Sure, you can produce breadcrumbs via GPS on your phone, but that wouldn't give you a way to communicate with anyone if there's no cell service. And even the GPS might have been gappy, because it's satellite-based and has to be able to lock onto more than one satellite (i.e. in view) to provide a bearing.
LE said early on they had trouble getting their satellite phone working in that area, so GPS info on the phone might be non-existent.

Hi there - i just thought it might give an indication of where they were prior to taking the trail. We are assuming that because of the backpack pic and the vehicle sighting at 7.45am that they went straight to the trail and began the hike - but may be they didn’t. Maybe they went to the trailhead and had forgotten something they needed and drove somewhere else to get it. There was obviously a signal from their home which is only a couple of miles from the trailhead .

 

[Adrenaline]

We were given vague answers about everything from the LE in this case at the start, and nothings changed. Anybody know what “well prepared” or anything else actually meant? Oh yes, and a comprehensive list of what they haven’t found. Wow! So I guess “heat related deaths” would be possible, seeing as it’s the fall back diagnosis following a comprehensive list of what they can’t find, once again. I respect those deputies staying by the bodies overnite, particularly as it probably was dangerous, and loading the bodies would have been hard going, but that’s about it so far.

 

[Lucy Locket]

Bumping 9/30 press release direct from Sheriff's office in case anybody missed words direct from his office.

<modsnip - comments from social media>

I still go with the heat theory but respect other people's opinions and thoughts re: COD. It could be that Jonathan was researching the trail/s for an app that was being created by him and/or others (as others have previously speculated). That whole scenario would make a lot more sense to me. MOO.

 

[Parsnip]

I just haven’t heard anything that would convince me they got up on Sunday morning intending to do that arduous hike - and I can’t say why because I’m not a verified contributor.

RSBM

MOO: That must be extraordinarily frustrating. And other posters’ questions about what “well prepared” means makes sense to me. There’s been some good discussion here about what sort of evidence might be found along the trail or with the family that would suggest they took the whole trail or at least length of time spent on the trail. As far as I recall, these include things like prints (which could also possibly answer questions about time spent in the river, the dog being carried, etc); soiled diapers; food containers; swim gear; water bottles; and so on. So why doesn’t the SO say something like “We believe the family took the entire loop because…” or “They had x, y, or z in their gear, suggesting they had packed for a several hour trip.”

My guess is that the SO’s intention wrt releasing information publicly is primarily to address public concern (e.g. sharing that it wasn’t a violent death so that the public isn’t living in fear of a mass murderer on the loose), as well as to provide general updates (eliminating suicide). I have no idea what, if anything, has been shared privately with the families.

Some evidence may still be part of the investigation. As far as I know, the pathologist’s report is still “pending.” So evidence like clothing, gear, diapers, water bottles, etc. are still part of the investigation and may not be able to be publicly addressed. Other evidence, like prints, may have been absent, ambiguous (possibly due to SAR), or remain part of the investigation.

Admittedly, I am not familiar with the area, community, or family. My mindset is more one of open curiosity. I have no reason to doubt SO intentions. But if I did, or if I were convinced that something was afoul with the investigation and I were close to this case, I would surely be screaming from the proverbial rooftops. (I am afraid of heights, hence proverbial.)

If such a thing exists as evidence *not* related to the ongoing investigation that can be shared with family and/or public to place the G-Cs on the trail with innocent intention, I hope it is done soon.

All MOO.

 

[RickshawFan]

I'd imagine them going down the SL trail is somewhat plausible.

The thing that bothers me though is that
there's no record or past history of JG ever researching for the SL trail.
That is because there is not a single hiking trail app that covers the SL trail.
Could he have just pulled out a map, paper or online and decided to just go for it?
With their baby and their dog?
I have a hard time accepting such theory as highly likely.

I’m thinking they might wanted to do something as banal and non-committal as “checking it out”. Perhaps with a view to doing a “shakedown” of the new baby carrier.

I also think they might have got lulled into letting their guard down, thinking the baby carrier would be a lot cooler and faster to hike in than the former kangaroo pouch. It’s just that the new baby carrier was not going to mitigate the heat in the way they anticipated.

 

[Pumphouse363]

We were given vague answers about everything from the LE in this case at the start, and nothings changed. Anybody know what “well prepared” or anything else actually meant? Oh yes, and a comprehensive list of what they haven’t found. Wow! So I guess “heat related deaths” would be possible, seeing as it’s the fall back diagnosis following a comprehensive list of what they can’t find, once again. I respect those deputies staying by the bodies overnite, particularly as it probably was dangerous, and loading the bodies would have been hard going, but that’s about it so far.

You’re absolutely right! There’s a case in the U.K. where a man was brutally raped and murdered at a house party but, because the host was a celebrity, the police were informed the guest drowned in the swimming pool. They did not consider a crime had been committed until after the autopsy and consequently, the crime scene had been contaminated and crucial evidence had been removed. The family are still fighting for justice after 20 years. I say this because LE are also subject to human error - as we have said ‘we all make mistakes’. Just because there is no smoking gun does not preclude the possibility of foul play. MOO

 

[LifeIsAMystery]

I have never heard or read of people dying from the cleaning/lack of cleaning re: Camelback and I hike, MOO.

Re: a point raised at the end of the other thread, DOJ and FBI are involved when deaths occur on federal land, not case specific.

 

[RickshawFan]

I know some folks might be waiting for data from the phone, but that might never happen, for at least 2 reasons:
1. The phone might be heavily encrypted and/or a beta version of new technology. Actually, EC might not have had access, either, which might explain a scenario where she was running for help without his phone.
2. The phone might not have been functional at that temperature. I know this happens, because I got an iphone kinda recently after having a burner for years. I left it on the dashboard of my car, not realizing that’s a VERY bad idea. In no time at all, the phone was not functional. DEAD.
If JG had his phone e.g. in a shirt pocket, it would very likely have died in that heat. The temperature may simply have been above the heat tolerance of the technology. And a shirt pocket would put it in direct sunlight/heat, basically cooked. Even if the phone had been buried (e.g. wrapped in diapers in the baby pack), it might not have been functional.
So, I don’t think there’ll be any news forthcoming on the contents of the phone.

 

[PerplexedPatty]

I'm aware of such difficulty in dealing with heatstroke as the primary cod, but here we got 4 bodies.
The baby wasn't moving much at all I'd have to guess in terms of the activity level in hiking,
and the dog I suppose has a different body mechanism than humans.
Can't autopsy experts or coroners find anything, I mean any clue from those 4 bodies?

Evidently not:
8/19/2021 – Autopsies completed on Family and Dog- All currently pending toxicology
Mariposa Sheriff’s Office Update on the Gerrish – Chung Family | Sierra News Online


Gerrish/Chung toxicology sent to labs.

K-9 Samples sent to multiple labs.

It seems HS is easily found in canine deaths, moo

Pathological findings in dogs with fatal heatstroke - PubMed



Eleven dogs with fatal heatstroke were examined grossly and histopathologically post mortem. All showed multi-organ haemorrhagic diathesis with coagulative necrosis.

 

[LifeIsAMystery]

I’m thinking they might wanted to do something as banal and non-committal as “checking it out”. Perhaps with a view to doing a “shakedown” of the new baby carrier.

I also think they might have got lulled into letting their guard down, thinking the baby carrier would be a lot cooler and faster to hike in than the former kangaroo pouch. It’s just that the new baby carrier was not going to mitigate the heat in the way they anticipated.

Agree.

 

[Pumphouse363]

RSBM

MOO: That must be extraordinarily frustrating. And other posters’ questions about what “well prepared” means makes sense to me. There’s been some good discussion here about what sort of evidence might be found along the trail or with the family that would suggest they took the whole trail or at least length of time spent on the trail. As far as I recall, these include things like prints (which could also possibly answer questions about time spent in the river, the dog being carried, etc); soiled diapers; food containers; swim gear; water bottles; and so on. So why doesn’t the SO say something like “We believe the family took the entire loop because…” or “They had x, y, or z in their gear, suggesting they had packed for a several hour trip.”

My guess is that the SO’s intention wrt releasing information publicly is primarily to address public concern (e.g. sharing that it wasn’t a violent death so that the public isn’t living in fear of a mass murderer on the loose), as well as to provide general updates (eliminating suicide). I have no idea what, if anything, has been shared privately with the families.

Some evidence may still be part of the investigation. As far as I know, the pathologist’s report is still “pending.” So evidence like clothing, gear, diapers, water bottles, etc. are still part of the investigation and may not be able to be publicly addressed. Other evidence, like prints, may have been absent, ambiguous (possibly due to SAR), or remain part of the investigation.

Admittedly, I am not familiar with the area, community, or family. My mindset is more one of open curiosity. I have no reason to doubt SO intentions. But if I did, or if I were convinced that something was afoul with the investigation and I were close to this case, I would surely be screaming from the proverbial rooftops. (I am afraid of heights, hence proverbial.)

If such a thing exists as evidence *not* related to the ongoing investigation that can be shared with family and/or public to place the G-Cs on the trail with innocent intention, I hope it is done soon.

All MOO.

Fantastic explanation if you don’t mind me saying. I really hope that there is some corroborating evidence that puts them on that trail.