Found Deceased CA - Kiely Rodni missing from Party Near Prosser Family Campground in Truckee #9

[MsMarple]

With regard to whether or not a cell phone would stop pinging if it was underwater the answer is yes, regardless whether the phone was on or off. Cell phones use high and ultra high frequencies which are effectively stopped by water. I'm posting an easy to understand reason why that happens.

For example, in contrast, radio transmissions divers use to communicate with the surface are ultra low frequencies.

It's obviously more complicated and I'll leave that to a real expert (as opposed to a science geek... me, lol) to explain more thoroughly but it does seem like Kiely's phone would have stopped pinging once it hit water, probably immediately.

How Water Affects Cell Signals​

The high frequency wavelengths used by phones don’t travel well through water. Because water conducts electricity, it can reflect radio waves. And water vapor absorbs the energy of radio signals, and turns them into heat—the same thing that happens inside your microwave.

Basically, water blocks the radio signal between the tower and your phone.

Fog and Clouds

Like rain, but with many more, smaller droplets. How fog affects your cell reception is dependent on which frequency range you’re operating in. Below 2,000 gigahertz, it’s not a huge factor. But, above that number, fog can seriously scatter the signal. Some of the latest 4G LTE bands operate at those frequencies. Here’s a list of which carriers use which frequencies.

How Weather Affects Your Cell Signal and Why It Matters

Using a phone outdoors? This is what you need to know to stay in touch.

www.outsideonline.com

One question I have is IF it was extremely foggy at Prosser that night - and I haven't found a definitive answer yet - could fog have also impaired the ability for Kiely's phone to ping off nearby towers?

 

[customCF]

on another case here on WS someone mentioned that cars register (black box) a lot of info like: which seatingplaces were occupied and when (due to weight on them), which doors opened etc… is there anyone more tech savvy that can tell me if this is true and if that’s te case in Kiely’s car? Thanks!

this may help answer your question.

"The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) passed a regulation in 2012 which requires that EDR boxes record 15 specific data points, including speed, steering, braking, acceleration, seatbelt use, and, in the event of a car crash, the force of impact and whether airbags deployed in a car accident."

from this website:

Event Data Recorder | NHTSA

www.nhtsa.gov

 

[customCF]

With regard to whether or not a cell phone would stop pinging if it was underwater the answer is yes, regardless whether the phone was on or off. Cell phones use high and ultra high frequencies which are effectively stopped by water. I'm posting an easy to understand reason why that happens.

For example, in contrast, radio transmissions divers use to communicate with the surface are ultra low frequencies.

It's obviously more complicated and I'll leave that to a real expert (as opposed to a science geek... me, lol) to explain more thoroughly but it does seem like Kiely's phone would have stopped pinging once it hit water, probably immediately.

How Water Affects Cell Signals​

The high frequency wavelengths used by phones don’t travel well through water. Because water conducts electricity, it can reflect radio waves. And water vapor absorbs the energy of radio signals, and turns them into heat—the same thing that happens inside your microwave.

Basically, water blocks the radio signal between the tower and your phone.

Fog and Clouds

Like rain, but with many more, smaller droplets. How fog affects your cell reception is dependent on which frequency range you’re operating in. Below 2,000 gigahertz, it’s not a huge factor. But, above that number, fog can seriously scatter the signal. Some of the latest 4G LTE bands operate at those frequencies. Here’s a list of which carriers use which frequencies.

How Weather Affects Your Cell Signal and Why It Matters

Using a phone outdoors? This is what you need to know to stay in touch.

www.outsideonline.com

One question I have is IF it was extremely foggy at Prosser that night - and I haven't found a definitive answer yet - could fog have also impaired the ability for Kiely's phone to ping off nearby towers?

This may be informative to some of you. Modern phone abilities in regards to location and survivability in water.

How to Find Your Lost iPhone, Even If It's Turned Off

Apple's new Find My feature lets you track some iPhones even after they're turned off.

lifehacker.com

and

We took the iPhone 12 down to 65 feet underwater in Lake Tahoe

And it put up a good fight.

www.cnet.com

 

[customCF]

RSBM
These may not answer your specific questions, which I think are some of the cruxes to this mystery. But per the first source, the power-down final handshake sent to the network may be data that told LE KR's phone was turned off.

A. This is a Quora post, from what looks like to be a qualified poster:
View attachment 368461

Can a cell phone be pinged if the power is off?

Answer (1 of 3): No. This is not Hollywood. It can’t be located when off. It can’t be remotely turned on. HOWEVER. Generally, the phone will send a power-down final handshake to the network (so the network knows to send calls to voicemail immediately rather then trying to locate the phone to ...

www.quora.com

RSBM

the poster in that image isn't technically correct about phone cannot be located when powered off.

One article as a source, there are others from other websites.

How to Find Your Lost iPhone, Even If It's Turned Off

Apple's new Find My feature lets you track some iPhones even after they're turned off.

lifehacker.com

 

[RedHaus]

this may help answer your question.

"The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) passed a regulation in 2012 which requires that EDR boxes record 15 specific data points, including speed, steering, braking, acceleration, seatbelt use, and, in the event of a car crash, the force of impact and whether airbags deployed in a car accident."

from this website:

Event Data Recorder | NHTSA

www.nhtsa.gov

You know, @customCF, I have seen this same info re:2012 regs for EDRs. But I suspect the effective date was out several years to allow car manufacturers to implement these new requirements. But despite trying, I never found an effective date for these regs. Any chance you or others know?

In other words, with a 2013 model year car, possibly built in 2012 (anyone remember the build date from VIN runs?) odds are slim that KR's car had an EDR that captured all these data points from a 2012 regulation, unless Honda was way ahead of the U.S. regulators.

So I would still love to know specifically what data KR's car's EDR would capture. Among many critical pieces of data for CHP's investigation, IMO, would be the date and time her car went in the water.

 

[customCF]

You know, @customCF, I have seen this same info re:2012 regs for EDRs. But I suspect the effective date was out several years to allow car manufacturers to implement these new requirements. But despite trying, I never found an effective date for these regs. Any chance you or others know?

In other words, with a 2013 model year car, possibly built in 2012 (anyone remember the build date from VIN runs?) odds are slim that KR's car had an EDR that captured all these data points from a 2012 regulation, unless Honda was way ahead of the U.S. regulators.

So I would still love to know specifically what data KR's car's EDR would capture. Among many critical pieces of data for CHP's investigation, IMO, would be the date and time her car went in the water.

BBM


this might help. I do believe these are current 2022 requirements for vehicles in the US

Federal Register :: Request Access

www.ecfr.gov

this is from 2012:

https://www.automotivesafetycouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/NHTSA-Final-EDR-Rule.pdf

 

[RedHaus]

RSBM

the poster in that image isn't technically correct about phone cannot be located when powered off.

One article as a source, there are others from other websites.

How to Find Your Lost iPhone, Even If It's Turned Off

Apple's new Find My feature lets you track some iPhones even after they're turned off.

lifehacker.com

Thanks for that clarification, @customCF.

Since I see you now as one of our resident phone experts can you confirm the other piece of that same person's Quora post?

He also stated when a phone is turned off a network provider would have data about that hard "turn off" as a final "handshake".

I think that is important in order to confirm whether LE could know that KR's phone was actually shut off just after 12:30am 8/6, as the PCSO PIO said 8/10.

To me that is a separate LE 'fact' from their other public fact that KR's phone last pinged at 12:33 am. Perhaps these two data points reflect a single event of KR's phone being turned off by her or somebody.

But the distinction to me, IMO, is key because if accurate, that would imply 12:33am was not necessarily when KR's phone went into water. That is if it ever did. We just don't know do we?

 

[RedHaus]

BBM


this might help. I do believe these are current 2022 requirements for vehicles in the US

Federal Register :: Request Access

www.ecfr.gov

this is from 2012:

https://www.automotivesafetycouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/NHTSA-Final-EDR-Rule.pdf

Bingo, thank you!

I quote from the FR you just posted:

"The effective date for this Final Rule is October 9, 2012. Passenger cars... voluntarily equipped with an EDR and manufactured on or after September 1, 2012 must comply with this Final Rule."

OK, so now I am on the hunt to see when KR's car was built from its VIN. A simple Honda VIN decoder should do it. Hopefully it was built on or after 9/1/2012.

Stay tuned.

 

[customCF]

Thanks for that clarification, @customCF.

Since I see you now as one of our resident phone experts can you confirm the other piece of that same person's Quora post?

He also stated when a phone is turned off a network provider would have data about that hard "turn off" as a final "handshake".

I think that is important in order to confirm whether LE could know that KR's phone was actually shut off just after 12:30am 8/6, as the PCSO PIO said 8/10.

To me that is a separate LE 'fact' from their other public fact that KR's phone last pinged at 12:33 am. Perhaps these two data points reflect a single event of KR's phone being turned off by her or somebody.

But the distinction to me, IMO, is key because if accurate, that would imply 12:33am was not necessarily when KR's phone went into water. That is if it ever did. We just don't know do we?

The part about "handshakes" between a phone and a network provider/cell tower is accurate.

A "ping" is when a signal is sent to a device to determine its location.

A "handshake" is when 2 devices communicate with each other.

i can find other sources if needed to back up this one.

source: Handshake Definition

Ping Definition - What is the ping command and what does it do?

A simple definition of Ping that is easy to understand.

techterms.com

 

[Sabex]

The part about "handshakes" between a phone and a network provider/cell tower is accurate.

A "ping" is when a signal is sent to a device to determine its location.

A "handshake" is when 2 devices communicate with each other.

i can find other sources if needed to back up this one.

source: Handshake Definition

Ping Definition - What is the ping command and what does it do?

A simple definition of Ping that is easy to understand.

techterms.com

I think a ping is less about locating a device and more about checking that the connection is still live.

The location part is purely incidental. The location of the cell tower that the ping is received from is all you get.

 

[customCF]

I think a ping is less about locating a device and more about checking that the connection is still live.

The location part is purely incidental. The location of the cell tower that the ping is received from is all you get.

In part you're correct, a ping can also help locate a device.

Location can be found in multiple ways, GPS location data is just one, triangulation is another.

Here Are All the Ways to 'Ping' a Lost iPhone

When you can't find your iPhone, you don't need to ask someone to call it for you. Instead, you can use one of your other Apple devices to ping it.

lifehacker.com

article talks about pinging a phone to find location

 

[Sabex]

In part you're correct, a ping can also help locate a device.

Location can be found in multiple ways, GPS location data is just one, triangulation is another.

Here Are All the Ways to 'Ping' a Lost iPhone

When you can't find your iPhone, you don't need to ask someone to call it for you. Instead, you can use one of your other Apple devices to ping it.

lifehacker.com

article talks about pinging a phone to find location

Hey.

You'll notice that the author uses the word "ping" in quotes throughout the article, because he or she is not using the term correctly.

Ping is short for Packet Internet Groper and was developed on Unix decades ago. A ping is only used for testing network connections. It sends a packet out, the remote machine sends one back, and you are given the time it took for the whole process to occur.

Have a link.

 

[customCF]

Hey.

You'll notice that the author uses the word "ping" in quotes throughout the article, because he or she is not using the term correctly.

Ping is short for Packet Internet Groper and was developed on Unix decades ago. A ping is only used for testing network connections. It sends a packet out, the remote machine sends one back, and you are given the time it took for the whole process to occur.

Have a link.

Just because the author used a word somewhat incorrectly it doesn't mean the information contained therein is bad or incorrect.

From the law about pinging a phone:

What the Law Says​

"Both the Federal government and State governments have laws, rules, and regulation regarding the access, distribution, and use of cell phone location information.

On June 27th 2013, The Federal Communications Commission issued a declaratory ruling regarding the use of Customer Proprietary Network Information (CPNI).

CPNI is defined in Section 222 of the Communication Act of 1934 – as amended by the Telecommunications Act of 1996, and now in a declaratory ruling on June 27, 2013.

Here’s the ruling: FCC ACTS TO PROTECT PRIVATE CONSUMER INFORMATION ON WIRELESS DEVICES

Note the title of the document. Note that the word “location” is now included as CPNI. Location, naturally means cell phone location. But don’t take my word for it — it’s right here, in the ruling:

“…the phone’s location at the beginning and end of each call”.

The ruling also makes clear that carriers may only disclose cell phone location information in very limited ways without the permission and consent of the consumer."

from this website: Cell Phone Ping: What's The Law and What's The Lie?

also from the San Diego sheriffs office just for one legal wording of how they use pings:

https://apps.sdsheriff.net/PublicDocs/SB978/Law%20Enforcement%20Services%20Bureau/Field%20Operations%20Manual/POLICY%2049_Cell%20Phone%20Pings.pdf

 

[RedHaus]

Bingo, thank you!

I quote from the FR you just posted:

"The effective date for this Final Rule is October 9, 2012. Passenger cars... voluntarily equipped with an EDR and manufactured on or after September 1, 2012 must comply with this Final Rule."

OK, so now I am on the hunt to see when KR's car was built from its VIN. A simple Honda VIN decoder should do it. Hopefully it was built on or after 9/1/2012.

Stay tuned.

OK. KR's car was built 9/25/2012. That means this required set of EDR data, effective 9/1/2012 DOES APPLY to KR's car!

Source: Vehicle History Reports I VIN Check

"49 CFR Part 563, Event Data Recorders (Part 563) was established on August 2006. It specifies the definition and performance requirements of Event Data Recorders (EDRs) including the standardization of crash data elements, data collection and accuracy, survivability, and retrievability of the data. The compliance date for Part 563 was September 1, 2012"... Table II-1, below, provides the required essential."

I DO NOT YET SEE DATE / TIME OF CRASH EVENT. SO I'll KEEP LOOKING FOR THAT CONFIRMATION TOO. UNLESS SOMEONE ELSE HAS!

Source: U.S. Department Of Transportation National Highway Traffic Safety Administration PRELIMINARY REGULATORY EVALUATION FMVSS No. 405 EVENT DATA RECORDERS (EDRs) Office of Regulatory Analysis and Evaluation National Center for Statistics and Analysis November 2012 (only a PDF available).

 

[getthefax]

this may help answer your question.

"The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) passed a regulation in 2012 which requires that EDR boxes record 15 specific data points, including speed, steering, braking, acceleration, seatbelt use, and, in the event of a car crash, the force of impact and whether airbags deployed in a car accident."

from this website:

Event Data Recorder | NHTSA

www.nhtsa.gov

We have covered EDRs a whole lot earlier in these threads. I bet if you search EDR you’ll get a bunch of those references.

 

[Bounceycat]

OK. KR's car was built 9/25/2012. That means this required set of EDR data, effective 9/1/2012 DOES APPLY to KR's car!

View attachment 368585
Source: Vehicle History Reports I VIN Check

"49 CFR Part 563, Event Data Recorders (Part 563) was established on August 2006. It specifies the definition and performance requirements of Event Data Recorders (EDRs) including the standardization of crash data elements, data collection and accuracy, survivability, and retrievability of the data. The compliance date for Part 563 was September 1, 2012"... Table II-1, below, provides the required essential."

I DO NOT YET SEE DATE / TIME OF CRASH EVENT. SO I'll KEEP LOOKING FOR THAT CONFIRMATION TOO. UNLESS SOMEONE ELSE HAS!

View attachment 368589
Source: U.S. Department Of Transportation National Highway Traffic Safety Administration PRELIMINARY REGULATORY EVALUATION FMVSS No. 405 EVENT DATA RECORDERS (EDRs) Office of Regulatory Analysis and Evaluation National Center for Statistics and Analysis November 2012 (only a PDF available).

Amazing sleuthing! I'm wondering why the document says 9/25/2022 though. Could it be just showing the current date? (Not sure of your time zone. Please help me see where the manufacture date in 2012 is on there? Thank you!

ETA: a Carfax report definitely shows manufacture month/year, if anyone has an active subscription there. AFAIK car manufacturer dates are typically MM/YYYY and so not include a specific day of the month.

 

[RedHaus]

Amazing sleuthing! I'm wondering why the document says 9/25/2022 though. Could it be just showing the current date? (Not sure of your time zone. Please help me see where the manufacture date in 2012 is on there? Thank you!

ETA: a Carfax report definitely shows manufacture month/year, if anyone has an active subscription there. AFAIK car manufacturer dates are typically MM/YYYY and so not include a specific day of the month.

OMG, Bounceycat... in my haste that is my bad... Thank you for pointing that out.. I'll see if I can still edit..

Clearly that has not yet been resolved in my mind then... when KR's car was built. I'll keep trying.

 

[Bounceycat]

OMG, Bounceycat... in my haste that is my bad... Thank you for pointing that out.. I'll see if I can still edit..

Clearly that has not yet been resolved in my mind then... when KR's car was built. I'll keep trying.

No problem! It's an easy one to mistake. Hopefully someone will have Carfax access, that would give us the month for sure.

 

[RedHaus]

OK. KR's car was built 9/25/2012. That means this required set of EDR data, effective 9/1/2012 DOES APPLY to KR's car!

View attachment 368585
Source: Vehicle History Reports I VIN Check

"49 CFR Part 563, Event Data Recorders (Part 563) was established on August 2006. It specifies the definition and performance requirements of Event Data Recorders (EDRs) including the standardization of crash data elements, data collection and accuracy, survivability, and retrievability of the data. The compliance date for Part 563 was September 1, 2012"... Table II-1, below, provides the required essential."

I DO NOT YET SEE DATE / TIME OF CRASH EVENT. SO I'll KEEP LOOKING FOR THAT CONFIRMATION TOO. UNLESS SOMEONE ELSE HAS!

View attachment 368589
Source: U.S. Department Of Transportation National Highway Traffic Safety Administration PRELIMINARY REGULATORY EVALUATION FMVSS No. 405 EVENT DATA RECORDERS (EDRs) Office of Regulatory Analysis and Evaluation National Center for Statistics and Analysis November 2012 (only a PDF available).

ERROR IN POST (too late to edit!).

The first part of my post I quoted here is incorrect. My bad. I have not determined KR's car manufacturer date.

Turns out it is NOT possible to determine the manufacturer month / year with just a VIN # for Honda.

And without access to KR's car (inside driver door) or buying a report (e.g. Carfax) I cannot confirm whether KR's car was built before or after 9/1/2012 (since it is a 2013 model year). If built before 9/1/2012, her EDR could be primitive.

I've asked Mods to delete my post I quoted. In the meantime I wanted to point out my error. Sorry for confusion!

p.s. the rest of that post is A OK... but we just don't know if it applies to KR's car!

 

[ss90]

However, as I opined today or yesterday, what if someone saw KR's car still parked when there was an exodus at 12:33?

Maybe a dash cam of someone leaving wether there was a mass exodus or not? Or some other photoes / videos where the car is visible in the background. To me only somekind of footage would explain so exact time.

Only I find the phones last ping also at the same exact time a little curious.

What comes to Sami's statement of the last call being 12:36, which I believe she (and LE) checked from her phone, has anyone ever paid any attention if it is the time a call started or a time it ended which shows on call log? Could it be the phone pinged at the start of a call at 12.33 and the call ended at 12.36?