GUILTY CA - Madyson Middleton, 8, Santa Cruz, 26 July 2015 - #3 *Arrest*

[human]

I like to err on the side of smarter. Yes, there are plenty of abused kids. I look,at my own kids and grandkids and see the love and opportunities and mistakes I made. My own kids are better.parents, They don't want to make my mistakes.

Then I think of the kids who are abused. How sad is that. Those big eyes filled with trust to be hurt so horribly. No thank you. I will not accept that as a way of life for kids. I pray we care and do better as a world.

There are millions on anti depressant drugs. There are cutters.Suicide attempts. Eating disorders. Prison. Illegal self medicating drugs.

Maybe people don't become killers, but I think we can do better with raising children. .

 

[Madeleine74]

It really does start with parents... meaning... parents are the first line of defense. I was just reading an article from 2012 about Austin Sigg & his mother. I totally forgot this but apparently Sigg 'practiced' zip tying on his mother--he literally zip tied her hands! And she wasn't alarmed by that. And, according to the article I read (Denver Post), she would laugh (yes laugh) to friends about her son's strange interest in decomposition and mortuary science. Laugh? This was amusing? There were some flashing red flags right there and his own mother completely failed to notice them.

I have a feeling a lot of parents are like this -- their kids can do no wrong and everything is cute or funny or silly and they miss the signs because really, what parent looks at their own child and wonders if that child has a deep dark evil side. They don't. How many people are parents on WS? Thousands. Many thousands. And grandparents too. Now how many people think their own kid or grandkid could possibly have a screw loose and do harm to someone else? (I bet the number could be counted on one hand and maybe on just a couple fingers). Well, extrapolate that out to society at large. And you have some number of disordered people who might be giving off some subtle clues and the people closest to them don't see it because they could never see their precious in that way.

 

[Lilibet]

I absolutely agree with you.

If being abused in childhood was really the main trigger for someone to become abusive, violent or even resorting to murder/rape then we would see this happening countless times per year. It would be an epidemic. Over 6 million children suffer abuse every year. 6 Million! In just ten years time that is 60 million abused children. We have around 14K homicides per year in a country of 320 million.

I am not one to buy into what a criminal says who finds themselves in the criminal justice system. At sentencing the defendant even males and more often females tries to use the abuse excuse trying to lessen their punishment. Or they try to use the abuse excuse in the actual trial. I have seen case after case where a female was said to be abused in childhood and even by the person they murdered. It turned out to be a bald face lie just like Jodi Arias lied through her teeth. She was such a pathetic liar about being abused it came across as ridiculous. She had no clue what abuse is and that's why it came across as a totally lame. But oh yeah, if JA had to fill out a questionnaire or take a survey she would most certainly say she was an abused victim instead of the sociopath she is.

I don't trust anyone who I know has a vested interest to lie. Secondary gain as Prosecutor Juan Martinez called it in the Arias trial. And family members will also lie for the defendant if the defendant is facing LWOP or the death penalty. So I think the stats and research is greatly flawed and given by those who are truly victimizers but want to blame their evil deeds on someone else. Its rather nauseating actually since most of the ones who have truly been abused doesn't ever harm anyone much less become a sadist, pedophile, rapist or murderer.

And mental health professionals are always wanting to connect abuse to why someone becomes a horrible immoral and unlawful person. Its their job to think someone has to be broken even though the defendant may very well have lived a very pampered life instead. And the criminals certainly knows what the doctors want to hear. Lets blame it all on abuse. I have read articles in the past where sociopaths admitted they knew how to manipulate the therapists and tell them what they wanted to hear.

Rapists, pedophiles, and murderers come from all walks of life. Sure there will be some who were abused since they are a part of the overall population at large in our society. So that is just common sense that there will be a percentage of them in the criminal justice system. But no one will ever convince me it was because of abuse done by someone else in the past that made them go on to be a sickening heartless murderer of a totally different person. We have seen horrible murders committed by doctors, lawyers, rabbi, a NASA rocket scientist and everything in between. No profession or lifestyle during childhood is immune. We have become a society filled with excuses. The inmates/defendants would like everyone to believe it is never the fault of the perpetrator and someone else is always to blame.

I truly think a lot of todays murderers have full blown narcissistic traits. I think that is more prevalent nowadays and why conduct defiance disorders are on the rise. I also think society as a whole is breeding more sociopaths than ever before.

There have been many children who were/are homeless. Many, and the vast majority of them never harm a soul. Some have had to live out of a car yet still studied and went on to attend a prestigious college. Imo, it is really a slap in the face of all abuse survivors when abuse is used as the excuse why the defendant raped or murdered an innocent person. And many of these survivors have endured horrific acts for years on end yet become wonderful caring human beings, and great parents also.

I don't think abuse had anything to do with why he brutalized Maddy. I think he watched and they will probably find it on his cell and computer. He wanted to act out the brutality he saw in the videos he watched and of course like most predators he picked someone far weaker than him and someone he knew trusted him. It was such a bitter betrayal to Maddy who I am sure did think he was her friend when all along she really wasn't anything more to him than prey.

IMO

:goodpost: :yeahthat: :winner: The thanks button wasn't enough!

I know that what you wrote may seem harsh to some, but I really appreciate your courage to just lay it out there for us to think about. Of course, at this point we don't know what "brought on" his actions toward Maddy...poor parenting, abuse, mental illness, narcissism, , all of the above or something we can't imagine. Time will tell...maybe. But it's hard to imagine what mitigating factors there could be for his betrayal of this poor trusting little girl.

 

[human]

I am not sure what profession or income level has with abuse. We know it goes across all "races" and income levels.

The Menendez family was plenty well to do, for instance.

 

[Madeleine74]

Abuse can be a driver for later deviant behavior, we know that from various studies. Doesn't mean it's a 1:1 correlation though. Not every killer was abused, and not every abused kid turns out to be a killer. But is there a greater percentage of those who become killers and it turns out the killer was abused at some pivotal point in their life (like in childhood)? Yes. Doesn't mean this kid was abused, but it's something that experts will certainly look for and they'd be remiss if they just decided 'nahhhhh, why bother even looking to see if it happened.'

 

[katydid23]

I am not sure what profession or income level has with abuse. We know it goes across all "races" and income levels.

The Menendez family was plenty well to do, for instance.

So the Menendez brothers were abused children and that's why they slaughtered their parents? Because I always thought they did it for the $$$$$$$.

ETA: http://crime.about.com/od/murder/a/Menendez.htm

 

[human]

So the Menendez brothers were abused children and that's why they slaughtered their parents? Because I always thought they did it for the $$$$$$$.

ETA: http://crime.about.com/od/murder/a/Menendez.htm

Of course they did it for money. But do people who are not screwed up kill for money? They had no respect for life. Their father had many affairs and was abusive to them. Who knows what the continuous dysfunction was in that home. The words said. The violence, The shaming.

What were the hundreds of interactions?

 

[Lilibet]

I am not sure what profession or income level has with abuse. We know it goes across all "races" and income levels.

The Menendez family was plenty well to do, for instance.

I'm confused about what post you are commenting on regarding profession and income level and abuse.

 

[blue22]

I like to err on the side of smarter. Yes, there are plenty of abused kids. I look,at my own kids and grandkids and see the love and opportunities and mistakes I made. My own kids are better.parents, They don't want to make my mistakes.

Then I think of the kids who are abused. How sad is that. Those big eyes filled with trust to be hurt so horribly. No thank you. I will not accept that as a way of life for kids. I pray we care and do better as a world.

There are millions on anti depressant drugs. There are cutters.Suicide attempts. Eating disorders. Prison. Illegal self medicating drugs.

Maybe people don't become killers, but I think we can do better with raising children. .

Truly, I don't think anyone here suggests we shouldn't do better.

 

[Mamamerced]

@Lilibet,
It was the main focus for a while, true, but not simply targeting AJG's case. That was the catalyst for the discussion, but the discussion, to me, was more philosophical. I have no idea what went on in that family beyond what has been in the papers and that was not horrific at all.
Again speaking in generalities, people tend to have the "whatever happens in Las Vegas, stays in Las Vegas" attitude about much in their own family life. They let their proverbial hair down at home. I don't think anyone really "knows" what goes on in most homes; they know the appearance. Also, I mentioned earlier I personally wasn't referring just to immediate family but also to extended relatives/neighbors/friends that orbit around them.
I've worked with or raised children most of my adult life. I live in a rural area with one elem school, one middle school and one high-school. I have seen and heard enough in the classroom and within the small community to realize most problems with the children are rooted in the home life.
I appreciate and have learned alot from everyone's input here. It seems we all care very much.

 

[Amster]

I am not sure what profession or income level has with abuse. We know it goes across all "races" and income levels.

The Menendez family was plenty well to do, for instance.

I don't believe the Menendez killer brothers were abused....I guess the jury didn't either...

 

[Amster]

Not sexually abused, no. There are many other forms of abuse.

But none applied to them. Unless, one thinks the jury got it wrong....

 

[Mamamerced]

But none applied to them. Unless, one thinks the jury got it wrong....

I was trying, in vain, to edited my post to add; the jury was right to convict them because they slaughtered their parents.

I am not arguing that "abuse" makes a crime excuseable. Please don't misunderstand my intent; I'm questioning what contributes to the making of these savage killers.

 

[human]

I was trying, in vain, to edited my post to add; the jury was right to convict them because they slaughtered their parents.

I am not arguing that "abuse" makes a crime excuseable. Please don't misunderstand my intent; I'm questioning what contributes to the making of these savage killers.

Exactly. Otherwise why do we look at these crimes? Just for the shock factor? Or do we want to know how to address what can be done.

I hope someone can take Ann Rule's place and look in depth at these crimes.

 

[Annie1004]

Jaycee Dugard... if we are talking about a horrific childhood.... The three girls who were held captive for years by a sadistic monster appear to have picked their lives up and are living in the right direction. Then there is the Morman girl (whose name slipped my mind) who was kidnapped from her own bedroom and held for some time by a deranged couple.

I cannot buy the "abused childhood" defense any more than Dan White's "Twinkie defense" for murdering Mayor George Moscone and Harvey Milk back in the late 1970s in SF.

The kid is a bad seed -- way beyond redemption (unless he gets a brain transplant).

 

[bluesneakers]

Jaycee Dugard... if we are talking about a horrific childhood.... The three girls who were held captive for years by a sadistic monster appear to have picked their lives up and are living in the right direction. Then there is the Morman girl (whose name slipped my mind) who was kidnapped from her own bedroom and held for some time by a deranged couple.

I cannot think of anyone else who has endured such a horrid childhood than the four victims above, along with the Morman teen (forgot her name) who was kidnapped from her own bedroom and held for some tine by a deranged Cineplex.

He is a bad seed -- way beyond redemption (unless he gets a brain transplant).

Cineplex?

 

[flourish]

Criminal?

 

[human]

Jaycee Dugard... if we are talking about a horrific childhood.... The three girls who were held captive for years by a sadistic monster appear to have picked their lives up and are living in the right direction. Then there is the Morman girl (whose name slipped my mind) who was kidnapped from her own bedroom and held for some time by a deranged couple.

I cannot think of anyone else who has endured such a horrid childhood than the four victims above, along with the Morman teen (forgot her name) who was kidnapped from her own bedroom and held for some tine by a deranged Cineplex.

He is a bad seed -- way beyond redemption (unless he gets a brain transplant).

Tbey wern't betrayed by someone they love or trust

 

[Annie1004]

Cineplex?

My iPad's self-correcting feature... I saw it immediately and corrected it. You are fast!

 

[Annie1004]

Tbey wern't betrayed by someone they love or trust

Huh? What they endured is not in the same league? I am speechless. We have no idea what his younger years were like that would make him commit the most heinous of crimes.