GUILTY CA - Madyson Middleton, 8, Santa Cruz, 26 July 2015 - #3 *Arrest*

[katydid23]

I googled ' 15 yr old killer' and the list was endless:


http://antonia-monacelli.hubpages.com/hub/Murderous-Children-Alyssa-Bustamante

Murderous Children: 15 Year Old Alyssa Bustamante Brutally Murdered a 9 Year Old Girl
Updated on March 10, 2012
Elizabeth Olten was beaten, strangled, and had her throat slit by Alyssa Bustamante

What Happened & Why? "I Wanted To Know What It Felt Like To Kill Someone"

Alyssa, seeing that she finally had the opportunity to kill, took it. She grabbed Elizabeth Olten, beat her, strangled her, and finally, she stabbed her and slit her throat. She then dumped her body into one of the graves she had dug the week before in a nearby wooded area.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/n-m-pastor-taught-killer-son-shoot-article-1.1245610

Nehemiah Griego ambushed his father, shooting him dead with an assault rifle after killing his mother and three younger siblings, police said.
The motive, as articulated by the suspect, was purely that he was frustrated with his mother,” Houston said.


BERNALILLO COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPTARTMENT/AP
Police say Griego texted a picture of his dead mother to his 12-year-old girlfriend, then spent much of Saturday with her. The two went to the church where his father had been a pastor, and Griego eventually confessed to killing his parents and three younger siblings.
The cold-blooded teen planned the slaughter for a week and intended to shoot more people at a nearby Walmart before giving himself up at his dad’s old church, Houston said.


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/01/1...d-boy-sentenced-85-years-for-killing-teacher/


15-year-old Maryland boy sentenced 85 years for killing teacher

A 15-year-old was sentenced to 85 years in prison for killing and sexually assaulting his teacher at a Maryland youth facility, MyFoxDC reported.

Brian Wonsom pleaded guilty on Friday to killing his teacher Hannah Wheeling with a cinder block when he was 13.



Life sentence for 15-year-old boy convicted of conker killing | UK news | The Guardian

 

[threecrazykids]

I wasn't really citing that what he did was "sex" I am just struggling with the idea that at the exact same age one child can be unable to legally consent to sex and another child may rape and murder an innocent little girl and no longer be a "child" - it seems to me either age of consent laws are wonky or he's a messed up kid without a fully-formed brain, since he citing incredibly idiotic logic when the police asked why he did it, he "just wanted to see what people would say" - he just doesn't seem old enough to be a calculating mastermind monster, to me. He seems like a kid who has no sense of empathy and also lives in a violent fantasy world in his head. Did he really realize that he was harming another human? I watched this documentary earlier about Josef Fritzl, a man who kept his daughter in a soundproof dungeon under his house for 25 years and his rationale was that he wanted to keep her from "doing bad things" - I think some people are just missing parts of their brain. I don't want to make excuses for this kid, but I can't imagine a boy of his age being a cold inhuman monster, on an adult level.

Age really has no bearing on intellect. There are children who can play Mozart pieces at extremely young ages, while some people are completely tone deaf at the ripe age of 96. And I simply can't entertain the idea that a 15 year old "really didn't know he was harming another human". This is basic human nature. When any living being is harmed, there is clear indication of such - it's instinctual (life preserving tactics). Humans and animals cry out - indicating pain. Faces clench, eyes close tightly, sheer contortion of muscles, etc. Tons of indications from a living creature when they are harmed.

To question whether or not he is "capable" of understanding harm is likely an attempt to understand the "why" behind this horrific crime. We can theorize immeasurable amounts of circumstances that could have led to this behavior, but in the end there is no doubt in my mind that he absolutely, with 100% certainty knew he was harming another human being.

And the main reason I can conclude this? Because he hid her body after the fact. People who don't know they've done wrong don't hide it...because they don't KNOW it's wrong. Any form of deceit or attempt to cover up actions indicates an attempt at self preservation. He knew enough to cover up what he'd done...therefore he knew what he did was wrong. Now did it "feel" wrong or "bad" to him while he did it? That is a WHOLE different subject altogether...he may have felt really good while he performed the act itself, but that doesn't mean he didn't know it was horrific.

A child as young as 2 (sometimes earlier) knows basic differences between right and wrong...and what they should and shouldn't do. You can ask a two year old who has a cookie in their hand "Did you take a cookie after I told you no?" and they will lie right to your face. Because they KNOW they weren't suppose to have one...but their desire to have the cookie supersedes the consequences. Yet, they know to initially hide the cookie from you, because they know they have done wrong.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever he knew he was harming another human being. And his behaviors following this murder prove to me with 100% certainty he knew it was wrong.

 

[Eloise]

Of course a fifteen year old knows if they're harming someone! My three year old knows it. Kids are humans, with the same human emotions and feelings as adults... not some kind of other species!

If THIS fifteen year old has something wrong with his brain then it's got nothing to do with his age. His age just shouldn't come into it.

 

[Madeleine74]

<modsnip> ... it is a scientific fact that teens brains are not fully developed, specifically the connections between logical rational thought and emotional acting out. Estimates put completion of brain development around 25 yrs old. That's just the science. It doesn't excuse behaviors and it doesn't give someone a 'pass' to kidnap, rape, and murder, but if you want to discuss and understand teenage perps, it's helpful to learn about the differences between kids and adults, brain development-wise.


https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=1&ContentID=3051

 

[Madeleine74]

They committed a very adult crime on purpose for a stupid reason, and only one of them is mentally ill.

They committed a very serious and potentially deadly crime all based on a fictional fantasy character they learned about on the Internet and were trying to "impress," and, tragically, didn't understand there was no such thing as a 7ft tall 100 lb gossamer white man with no face called "Slenderman" who lived in a mansion somewhere in the woods, waiting for human sacrifices.

Ask any kid over the age of 16 and they'd look at you like you were crazy, if you suggested such a thing. Then ask a 10 to 12 year old about Slenderman. I bet there would be some that would believe this fantasy. Add mental illness or some other problem to the mix and yowza.

 

[human]

There have been child killers released such as in England. Our laws are incredibly strict compared to some or maybe all European countries. Don't know about that for sure.

There is a mystery writer who helped kill a friend's mother as a teen or a child. i forget. She is from England. She writes those Victorian mysteries.

His crime was not simply killing. It is the other incredible things he did that put it beyond a mere murder. I think the depravity puts it into a whole other category to me.

Teens make stupid choices. Drink and drive. Jump headfirst into a pool. That kind of thing.

But to kill in such a horrifying manner? Um no. That is not poor decision making.

 

[blue22]

I wasn't really citing that what he did was "sex" I am just struggling with the idea that at the exact same age one child can be unable to legally consent to sex and another child may rape and murder an innocent little girl and no longer be a "child" - it seems to me either age of consent laws are wonky or he's a messed up kid without a fully-formed brain, since he citing incredibly idiotic logic when the police asked why he did it, he "just wanted to see what people would say" - he just doesn't seem old enough to be a calculating mastermind monster, to me. He seems like a kid who has no sense of empathy and also lives in a violent fantasy world in his head. Did he really realize that he was harming another human? I watched this documentary earlier about Josef Fritzl, a man who kept his daughter in a soundproof dungeon under his house for 25 years and his rationale was that he wanted to keep her from "doing bad things" - I think some people are just missing parts of their brain. I don't want to make excuses for this kid, but I can't imagine a boy of his age being a cold inhuman monster, on an adult level.

What the heck do consent laws being wonky, have ANYTHING to do with what he did? I'm not attacking you, honestly. I just don't understand what you are getting at. Consent laws has NOTHING, ZERO, ZILCH to do with this crime. There. Was. No. Sex. Consent laws don't even play a picture. Consent laws have nothing to do with criminal culpability of the murder of a child. They are not a mitigating factor.

He is not citing logic. He is justifying behavior, that he knows is wrong. Fritzl didn't make a dungeon to keep her from doing bad things, he did so to ALLOW him to do bad things. "Rationale" is not what they are doing. They are attempting to circumvent responsibility and assuage brutality. If you are truly mentally impaired, you don't hide a body or build dungeon. You don't cover up what you don't know is wrong.

 

[LinasK]

I wasn't really citing that what he did was "sex" I am just struggling with the idea that at the exact same age one child can be unable to legally consent to sex and another child may rape and murder an innocent little girl and no longer be a "child" - it seems to me either age of consent laws are wonky or he's a messed up kid without a fully-formed brain, since he citing incredibly idiotic logic when the police asked why he did it, he "just wanted to see what people would say" - he just doesn't seem old enough to be a calculating mastermind monster, to me. He seems like a kid who has no sense of empathy and also lives in a violent fantasy world in his head. Did he really realize that he was harming another human? I watched this documentary earlier about Josef Fritzl, a man who kept his daughter in a soundproof dungeon under his house for 25 years and his rationale was that he wanted to keep her from "doing bad things" - I think some people are just missing parts of their brain. I don't want to make excuses for this kid, but I can't imagine a boy of his age being a cold inhuman monster, on an adult level.

The fact that he made the video of him taking ice cream out of the freezer, and that's what he lured her with is indicative of premeditation. He did plan this. He may well be "missing parts of his brain". Dr. Robert Hare has done studies on criminal brains and there are damaged or underdeveloped parts- specifically in the amygdala and frontal cortexs. Their logic is flawed or they just don't care about the consequences of their actions.
The age of consent laws absolutely should NOT be lowered!!! Physical ability to have sex should not be equated with legal consent.

 

[LinasK]

Age really has no bearing on intellect. There are children who can play Mozart pieces at extremely young ages, while some people are completely tone deaf at the ripe age of 96. And I simply can't entertain the idea that a 15 year old "really didn't know he was harming another human". This is basic human nature. When any living being is harmed, there is clear indication of such - it's instinctual (life preserving tactics). Humans and animals cry out - indicating pain. Faces clench, eyes close tightly, sheer contortion of muscles, etc. Tons of indications from a living creature when they are harmed.

To question whether or not he is "capable" of understanding harm is likely an attempt to understand the "why" behind this horrific crime. We can theorize immeasurable amounts of circumstances that could have led to this behavior, but in the end there is no doubt in my mind that he absolutely, with 100% certainty knew he was harming another human being.

And the main reason I can conclude this? Because he hid her body after the fact. People who don't know they've done wrong don't hide it...because they don't KNOW it's wrong. Any form of deceit or attempt to cover up actions indicates an attempt at self preservation. He knew enough to cover up what he'd done...therefore he knew what he did was wrong. Now did it "feel" wrong or "bad" to him while he did it? That is a WHOLE different subject altogether...he may have felt really good while he performed the act itself, but that doesn't mean he didn't know it was horrific.

A child as young as 2 (sometimes earlier) knows basic differences between right and wrong...and what they should and shouldn't do. You can ask a two year old who has a cookie in their hand "Did you take a cookie after I told you no?" and they will lie right to your face. Because they KNOW they weren't suppose to have one...but their desire to have the cookie supersedes the consequences. Yet, they know to initially hide the cookie from you, because they know they have done wrong.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever he knew he was harming another human being. And his behaviors following this murder prove to me with 100% certainty he knew it was wrong.

:clap::clap::clap::goodpost:

 

[LinasK]

They committed a very serious and potentially deadly crime all based on a fictional fantasy character they learned about on the Internet and were trying to "impress," and, tragically, didn't understand there was no such thing as a 7ft tall 100 lb gossamer white man with no face called "Slenderman" who lived in a mansion somewhere in the woods, waiting for human sacrifices.

Ask any kid over the age of 16 and they'd look at you like you were crazy, if you suggested such a thing. Then ask a 10 to 12 year old about Slenderman. I bet there would be some that would believe this fantasy. Add mental illness or some other problem to the mix and yowza.

I did ask my 12-year-old at the time. She can distinguish fantasy from reality and she is an avid reader of fantasy. There's no way she would have fallen for the Slenderman hoax.

 

[LinasK]

What the heck do consent laws being wonky, have ANYTHING to do with what he did? I'm not attacking you, honestly. I just don't understand what you are getting at. Consent laws has NOTHING, ZERO, ZILCH to do with this crime. There. Was. No. Sex. Consent laws don't even play a picture. Consent laws have nothing to do with criminal culpability of the murder of a child. They are not a mitigating factor.

Thank-you!!!:clap::clap::clap:

 

[Madeleine74]

I did ask my 12-year-old at the time. She can distinguish fantasy from reality and she is an avid reader of fantasy. There's no way she would have fallen for the Slenderman hoax.

Well these 2 particular 12 yr olds did believe it & weren't able to distinguish fantasy from reality. The only one who wasn't sure it was real is the one that got attacked (though that's not why she was attacked).

 

[LinasK]

Well these 2 particular 12 yr olds did believe it & weren't able to distinguish fantasy from reality. The only one who wasn't sure it was real is the one that got attacked (though that's not why she was attacked).

Not sure what you mean by attacked. :waitasec:The victim (can't recall her name now, though it's been in the press) was not Morgan or Anissa.

 

[Madeleine74]

Three 12 yr olds were friends. 2 of the girls believed wholeheartedly in this Slenderman fantasy from the Internet and they are the ones who perpetuated the knife attack on the 3rd girl, thinking what they were doing would impress and please this "Slenderman" character.

The 3rd girl/victim who was stabbed (whose name I don't recall at the moment) had told her parents after the attack she wasn't sure about this Slenderman thing and wasn't sure she believed it was real.

 

[sallye818]

The author who along with a friend killed her mother (in UK, as teens) is Anne Perry. The victim in the slenderman case is Peyton (last name withheld).

 

[katydid23]

I know y'all hate facts like this, but it is a scientific fact that teens brains are not fully developed, specifically the connections between logical rational thought and emotional acting out. Estimates put completion of brain development around 25 yrs old. That's just the science. It doesn't excuse behaviors and it doesn't give someone a 'pass' to kidnap, rape, and murder, but if you want to discuss and understand teenage perps, it's helpful to learn about the differences between kids and adults, brain development-wise.


https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=1&ContentID=3051

Just because the brain has not fully developed it does not mean a 15 yr old does not understand that raping and torturing a child to death is WRONG. I will not use that 'undeveloped' brain as an excuse for such brutality. I did allow my 16 yr old to use that excuse for his two speeding tickets, although I did make him pay them off and I took the car keys away for 6 months.

 

[Madeleine74]

How many times must the verbiage be included in a post, "and none of that excuses someone's behavior nor do they ever get a pass for killing..." before it will be understood the point being made isn't at all related to an excuse?

I never said a 15 yr old, let alone this particular 15 year old doesn't know right from wrong. That's never been my contention because it's not true nor is it something I believe. And, it's not even related to what I posted, which included a link to a short and easy to understand article about the different areas of the brain used by an adult vs a teen. Yet there's a tiresome strawman argument being assembled once again.

 

[katydid23]

How many times must the verbiage be included in a post, "and none of that excuses someone's behavior nor do they ever get a pass for killing..." before it will be understood the point being made isn't at all related to an excuse?

I never said a 15 yr old, let alone this particular 15 year old doesn't know right from wrong. That's never been my contention because it's not true nor is it something I believe. And, it's not even related to what I posted, which included a link to a short and easy to understand article about the different areas of the brain used by an adult vs a teen. Yet there's a tiresome strawman argument being assembled once again.

Well then what is the point of continuously pointing out that a 15 yr old does not have a developed brain if it does not excuse his behavior? What is the connection being made then?

 

[SophieRose]

After girl&#8217;s killing, Santa Cruz art colony unites in grief, hope
http://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/After-girl-s-killing-Santa-Cruz-art-colony-6438718.php

Even more fraught is the effort by many residents to cope with the arrest of Gonzalez &#8212; to reconcile the memories they have of the boy who used to babysit for neighbors, grab their mail and do tricks with his yo-yo, with the terrible things he is accused of doing to Madyson.

snip

Joe Mailloux is close with Gonzalez and his mother &#8212; a mentor of sorts to the teenager. At first he refused to believe Gonzalez could have anything to do with Madyson&#8217;s death, and he still holds out hope that a mistake has been made.

But last week, Mailloux and a friend went to clean up the apartment and clean out the boy&#8217;s bedroom, converting it into a storage space.

 

[Madeleine74]

Well then what is the point of continuously pointing out that a 15 yr old does not have a developed brain if it does not excuse his behavior? What is the connection being made then?

Continuously? N=1

And still, to your original comment, where did I ever state a teen doesn't know right from wrong or attempt to use any example to make that argument? That's the specific exception you took to what I posted and felt the need to comment on, when I said no such thing.