GUILTY CA - Madyson Middleton, 8, Santa Cruz, 26 July 2015 - #3 *Arrest*

[flourish]

<modsnip> ... it is a scientific fact that teens brains are not fully developed, specifically the connections between logical rational thought and emotional acting out. Estimates put completion of brain development around 25 yrs old. That's just the science. It doesn't excuse behaviors and it doesn't give someone a 'pass' to kidnap, rape, and murder, but if you want to discuss and understand teenage perps, it's helpful to learn about the differences between kids and adults, brain development-wise.


https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=1&ContentID=3051

They committed a very serious and potentially deadly crime all based on a fictional fantasy character they learned about on the Internet and were trying to "impress," and, tragically, didn't understand there was no such thing as a 7ft tall 100 lb gossamer white man with no face called "Slenderman" who lived in a mansion somewhere in the woods, waiting for human sacrifices.

Ask any kid over the age of 16 and they'd look at you like you were crazy, if you suggested such a thing. Then ask a 10 to 12 year old about Slenderman. I bet there would be some that would believe this fantasy. Add mental illness or some other problem to the mix and yowza.

Well these 2 particular 12 yr olds did believe it & weren't able to distinguish fantasy from reality. The only one who wasn't sure it was real is the one that got attacked (though that's not why she was attacked).

Three 12 yr olds were friends. 2 of the girls believed wholeheartedly in this Slenderman fantasy from the Internet and they are the ones who perpetuated the knife attack on the 3rd girl, thinking what they were doing would impress and please this "Slenderman" character.

The 3rd girl/victim who was stabbed (whose name I don't recall at the moment) had told her parents after the attack she wasn't sure about this Slenderman thing and wasn't sure she believed it was real.

How many times must the verbiage be included in a post, "and none of that excuses someone's behavior nor do they ever get a pass for killing..." before it will be understood the point being made isn't at all related to an excuse?

I never said a 15 yr old, let alone this particular 15 year old doesn't know right from wrong. That's never been my contention because it's not true nor is it something I believe. And, it's not even related to what I posted, which included a link to a short and easy to understand article about the different areas of the brain used by an adult vs a teen. Yet there's a tiresome strawman argument being assembled once again.

Well then what is the point of continuously pointing out that a 15 yr old does not have a developed brain if it does not excuse his behavior? What is the connection being made then?

Continuously? N=1

And still, to your original comment, where did I ever state a teen doesn't know right from wrong or attempt to use any example to make that argument? That's the specific exception you took to what I posted and felt the need to comment on, when I said no such thing.

So if I understand correctly, you're point was not about culpability, but more a discussion on the differences between adult and younger brains, and that we can likely learn something or apply that knowledge for a better understanding perhaps?

 

[katydid23]

Continuously? N=1

And still, to your original comment, where did I ever state a teen doesn't know right from wrong or attempt to use any example to make that argument? That's the specific exception you took to what I posted and felt the need to comment on, when I said no such thing.

OK, here is the post I was responding to:

Originally Posted by Madeleine74
<modsnip> it is a scientific fact that teens brains are not fully developed, specifically the connections between logical rational thought and emotional acting out. Estimates put completion of brain development around 25 yrs old. That's just the science. It doesn't excuse behaviors and it doesn't give someone a 'pass' to kidnap, rape, and murder, but if you want to discuss and understand teenage perps, it's helpful to learn about the differences between kids and adults, brain development-wise.


Sp IT SEEMED like you were saying that kids do not have fully developed connections between 'logical rational thought and emotional acting out.' Those were your words and I thought it meant that you were implying that teens could not help but to act out emotionally and lost connection to rational thought. That is still what I interpret your posts as implying. Thus I responded that I did not agree that a 15 yr old did not rationally understand their actions.

 

[Elena]

No "sex" happened between piece of **** and Mady, she was brutally raped and murdered. He realised he was harming another human, that was one of his intentions; he wanted to do harm to Mady. It was all prepared: the ice cream scenario, all the torture.

 

[Paulas88]

No "sex" happened between piece of **** and Mady, she was brutally raped and murdered. He realised he was harming another human, that was one of his intentions; he wanted to do harm to Mady. It was all prepared: the ice cream scenario, all the torture.

Well said!!

 

[Madeleine74]

So if I understand correctly, you're point was not about culpability, but more a discussion on the differences between adult and younger brains, and that we can likely learn something or apply that knowledge for a better understanding perhaps?

Well discussion of another case got introduced by someone (the "Slenderman" stabbing case involving 2 girls on a 3rd girl) and I was responding to that particular side discussion, which was about 2 kids who believed a complete fantasy, which was their motive for the crime. That case is not similar to this case.

And then you found the one post in which I talk about brain development in a teen vs an adult and cited an article.

The point? As I said in my post, "it's helpful to understand the differences in brain development...when discussing a teen perp."

 

[flourish]

Well discussion of another case got introduced by someone (the "Slenderman" stabbing case involving 2 girls on a 3rd girl) and I was responding to that particular side discussion, which was about 2 kids who believed a complete fantasy, which was their motive for the crime. That case is not similar to this case.

And then you found the one post in which I talk about brain development in a teen vs an adult and cited an article.

The point? As I said in my post, "it's helpful to understand the differences in brain development...when discussing a teen perp."

I was trying to affirm your point. Sorry if I misunderstood.

 

[bessie]

Agree to disagree, and scroll on.

 

[Madeleine74]

I was trying to affirm your point. Sorry if I misunderstood.

Hey Fourish, No you didn't misunderstand. I think lots of people want to find the reasons (i.e. causes) for kids committing these heinous crimes. And then other people think reasons are the same as excuses, used to take away culpability.

 

[LinasK]

Just because the brain has not fully developed it does not mean a 15 yr old does not understand that raping and torturing a child to death is WRONG. I will not use that 'undeveloped' brain as an excuse for such brutality. I did allow my 16 yr old to use that excuse for his two speeding tickets, although I did make him pay them off and I took the car keys away for 6 months.

There was another case of a 14-year-old boy killing a little girl that I'm watching on 48 Hours on ID right now- another Maddie. Maddie Clifton killed in the bedroom of a boy named Josh Phillips, also playmates. He also participated in the search. I don't understand why the parents of little girls let them play with teenage boys!!!:banghead::banghead::banghead:

 

[blue22]

There was another case of a 14-year-old boy killing a little girl that I'm watching on 48 Hours on ID right now- another Maddie. Maddie Clifton killed in the bedroom of a boy named Josh Phillips, also playmates. He also participated in the search. I don't understand why the parents of little girls let them play with teenage boys!!!:banghead::banghead::banghead:

IMO, I'm not totally sure he really played with Madyson alone. (I think he slowly built up to making her feel comfortable in being alone, by being benign in groups. JMO) There was the one story in MSM where someone said they were behind a building...but I'm not so sure that's a true story. It seems to me if they had truly been alone often, there would be more people saying so after the fact. People always realize how strange that is after the fact, and we have one vague story? I think the parents viewed this community as a group, filled with all ages where the older helped the younger. I think they saw safety in that free range group of mixed ages. (Which is also something I feel is very dangerous. Not that my feelings matter to this case.) Though I can see why some are lulled into the safe feeling of that, especially when it seems like a successful community viewpoint until this happened.

As a parent, I don't trust ANY older person taking a special interest in my child. I've been through and seen too much in my life. But many people simply don't have the experience to see anything wrong with this, or they personally feel the benefits outweigh the risks. And even if they've had a bad experience in the past, they don't necessarily think their child is at a risk. It's not something I would ever choose to do, but not everyone sees or thinks of life in the way I do. There will always be parents who feel safe letting their little kids play unsupervised with older kids and adults. I can't understand it, but life experiences or ideologies often dictate how safe you feel about this.

 

[cvaldez1975]

ugh looks good but its behind a paywall.

After girl&#8217;s killing, Santa Cruz art colony unites in grief, hope
http://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/After-girl-s-killing-Santa-Cruz-art-colony-6438718.php

Even more fraught is the effort by many residents to cope with the arrest of Gonzalez &#8212; to reconcile the memories they have of the boy who used to babysit for neighbors, grab their mail and do tricks with his yo-yo, with the terrible things he is accused of doing to Madyson.

snip

Joe Mailloux is close with Gonzalez and his mother &#8212; a mentor of sorts to the teenager. At first he refused to believe Gonzalez could have anything to do with Madyson&#8217;s death, and he still holds out hope that a mistake has been made.

But last week, Mailloux and a friend went to clean up the apartment and clean out the boy&#8217;s bedroom, converting it into a storage space.

 

[SophieRose]

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/ge...-of-santa-cruz-was-strangled-stabbed-to-death

Madyson Middleton, the 8-year-old found dead at the Tannery Arts Center in Santa Cruz, died from asphyxiation and stab wounds to the neck, according to the Santa Cruz County Sheriff’s Office Coroner’s Unit.

The results of the autopsy were confirmed Thursday by detective Nick Baldridge.

 

[katydid23]

He stabbed her in the neck? :cry:

 

[blue22]

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/ge...-of-santa-cruz-was-strangled-stabbed-to-death

Madyson Middleton, the 8-year-old found dead at the Tannery Arts Center in Santa Cruz, died from asphyxiation and stab wounds to the neck, according to the Santa Cruz County Sheriff’s Office Coroner’s Unit.

The results of the autopsy were confirmed Thursday by detective Nick Baldridge.

Wait...amI reading this right. She was ALIVE when she was put in the bin?

"Kent said Madyson was not strangled, but died from positional asphyxiation because of the way her body was placed in the recycling bin. "

 

[LinasK]

IMO, I'm not totally sure he really played with Madyson alone. (I think he slowly built up to making her feel comfortable in being alone, by being benign in groups. JMO) There was the one story in MSM where someone said they were behind a building...but I'm not so sure that's a true story. It seems to me if they had truly been alone often, there would be more people saying so after the fact. People always realize how strange that is after the fact, and we have one vague story? I think the parents viewed this community as a group, filled with all ages where the older helped the younger. I think they saw safety in that free range group of mixed ages. (Which is also something I feel is very dangerous. Not that my feelings matter to this case.) Though I can see why some are lulled into the safe feeling of that, especially when it seems like a successful community viewpoint until this happened.

As a parent, I don't trust ANY older person taking a special interest in my child. I've been through and seen too much in my life. But many people simply don't have the experience to see anything wrong with this, or they personally feel the benefits outweigh the risks. And even if they've had a bad experience in the past, they don't necessarily think their child is at a risk. It's not something I would ever choose to do, but not everyone sees or thinks of life in the way I do. There will always be parents who feel safe letting their little kids play unsupervised with older kids and adults. I can't understand it, but life experiences or ideologies often dictate how safe you feel about this.

Well although there was nothing said about Maddie Clifton's death being about sexual abuse, two things came out at the very end: 1) he did have a brain lesion (not saying that excuses him), and 2) more importantly, he was viewing online right before he attacked her.

 

[blue22]

Well although there was nothing said about Maddie Clifton's death being about sexual abuse, two things came out at the very end: 1) he did have a brain lesion (not saying that excuses him), and 2) more importantly, he was viewing online right before he attacked her.

I would be really shocked if was not viewed in close proximity to Madyson's death as well.

 

[LinasK]

IMO, I'm not totally sure he really played with Madyson alone. (I think he slowly built up to making her feel comfortable in being alone, by being benign in groups. JMO) There was the one story in MSM where someone said they were behind a building...but I'm not so sure that's a true story. It seems to me if they had truly been alone often, there would be more people saying so after the fact. People always realize how strange that is after the fact, and we have one vague story? I think the parents viewed this community as a group, filled with all ages where the older helped the younger. I think they saw safety in that free range group of mixed ages. (Which is also something I feel is very dangerous. Not that my feelings matter to this case.) Though I can see why some are lulled into the safe feeling of that, especially when it seems like a successful community viewpoint until this happened.

As a parent, I don't trust ANY older person taking a special interest in my child. I've been through and seen too much in my life. But many people simply don't have the experience to see anything wrong with this, or they personally feel the benefits outweigh the risks. And even if they've had a bad experience in the past, they don't necessarily think their child is at a risk. It's not something I would ever choose to do, but not everyone sees or thinks of life in the way I do. There will always be parents who feel safe letting their little kids play unsupervised with older kids and adults. I can't understand it, but life experiences or ideologies often dictate how safe you feel about this.

You're preaching to the choir with me. I'm proud to be a helicopter parent! I freaked out one time when this teenage waiter took an unnatural interest in my daughter. 8-year-olds should never be the object of sexual desire, yet we're seeing more and more of these attacks.

 

[Lilibet]

So wait a minute. This update sounds like she asphyxiated IN the recycling bin. Was she still alive when he put her there, THEN stabbed in the neck? Wouldn't that be caught on camera? I can't even begin to imagine what this poor child went through. Does this mean she might have lived if found sooner? I'm not criticizing the searchers because they were initially looking for a live child. But it just chills me to think that she might have been alive (although probably unconscious) in the bin. Poor baby.

SANTA CRUZ >> Madyson Middleton, the 8-year-old found dead at the Tannery Arts Center in Santa Cruz, died from positional asphyxiation and stab wounds to the neck, according to the Santa Cruz County Sheriff’s Office Coroner’s Unit. Sheriff’s Lt. Kelly Kent said Madyson was “wedged inside a garbage can and stabbed in the neck by another person.” Kent said Madyson was not strangled, but died from positional asphyxiation because of the way her body was placed in the recycling bin.

BBM
http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/general-news/20150813/coroner-madyson-middleton-of-santa-cruz-was-strangled-stabbed-to-death

 

[katydid23]

I don't know how her parents would begin to deal with this news, if they realized she was still alive in that bin, while they were outside searching for her, just feet away. So heartbreakingly tragic. :rose:

 

[blue22]

I don't know how her parents would begin to deal with this news, if they realized she was still alive in that bin, while they were outside searching for her, just feet away. So heartbreakingly tragic. :rose:

I'm hoping and hoping it was weirdly phrased in the article, but I think I'm being naive.

I cannot imagine. Her poor family and that poor community. Such a monster among them.