GUILTY CA - Manuel Ortega & others for gang rape of 15yo girl, Richmond, 2009

[PeteyGirl]

I am neither religious NOR Godless, and agree that lack of personal responsibility and suffering the consequences of one's behavior is what is lacking. This is what contributes to the casual evil, IMO. That these onlookers were not horrified in empathy is the dividing line between something "evil" in human nature and the rest of us.

I believe that youth do not have the moral maturity that comes with age, experience and time. Many of those who witnessed this without calling for help will someday writhe in remorse, a few won't, and will go on to victimize others.

I don't believe our personal reckoning comes after death of the body, I believe it happens immediately and moment to moment throughout our lives. Opportunities abound to "reckon", and you live in heaven or hell right NOW based upon your decisions.

I suspect some of those onlookers are suffering the fires of "Hell" as we comb over this tragedy. For the sake of their souls, I really hope so.

 

[sniperacer]

It is my understanding those that watched, witnessed, walked by and didn't make a call or tell an authority figure can not and will not have charges brought against them. This too makes me angry :furious: beyond words.

It is my understanding it is against the law to witness a sexual assault and not report if the victim is 14 or under. So, unbelievably, watching this and not reporting is OK fine. Who the he77 thought out this law? Very sad.

 

[magnaccia]

There's really no law that punishes bystanders who willingly let something illegal occur without as much as calling the police?

That's strange, I know here in FL you can get in trouble for being a bystander when street racing is going on.. seems rather moronic that you can get in trouble for watching an illegal race, but it's perfectly acceptable to watch a rape and do nothing.

 

[sniperacer]

23rd St. in Richmond at 9:30 at night is NOT a safe place.

Exactly, the bottom line. A place where this happens, spectators come to watch and zero out of twenty (or whatever) fail to help. It is a different world than most are use too. High school campus gated and locked. Too much danger to protect all the students all the time.

Folks that live in these areas need to be aware that it is not safe.

I live in a more "normal" neighborhood, and the only danger my son faces when he goes to his high-school dance is the girls with low cut, high slit dresses, complete with g-string and garters, grind dancing with him.

 

[sniperacer]

There's really no law that punishes bystanders who willingly let something illegal occur without as much as calling the police?

Yes there is. As I said, it is my understanding in CA, it is against the law to witness a sexual assault and not report if the victim is 14 or under. This law seems a little incomplete.

 

[Columbo]

Four suspects were arraigned today.

snipped from article:
"Three of the defendants, San Pablo residents Cody Ray Smith, 15, and Ari Abdallah Morales, 16, and Pinole resident Marcelles James Peter, 17, are charged with rape by foreign object in concert. Morales is also charged with robbery. All three are being charged as adults.


The fourth defendant, 19-year-old Manuel Ortega, is charged with robbery, assault by force likely to produce great bodily injury and rape in concert."


http://cbs5.com/localwire/22.0.html?type=bcn&item=RICHMOND-SUSPECTS-11-18

Smith pleads "not guilty" ; Morales has hired a private attorney. Peter and Ortega have a public defender. They used a foreign object, too. How much worse is it going to get?

 

[Columbo]

There's really no law that punishes bystanders who willingly let something illegal occur without as much as calling the police?

That's strange, I know here in FL you can get in trouble for being a bystander when street racing is going on.. seems rather moronic that you can get in trouble for watching an illegal race, but it's perfectly acceptable to watch a rape and do nothing.

I think I read somewhere if LE can prove that they were doing more than just watching--if they cheered or helped the rapists in any way, they can be prosecuted. I'm not a lawyer--I'm just guessing. Any lawyers out there??

 

[Columbo]

I'm not sure about the trustworthiness of the site where I got this but here it is, supposedly from a friend of the victim. She says the school IS to blame:

http://bossip.com/172899/friend-of-gang-rape-victim-says-this-school-is-to-blame/

I found it especially heartrending that she had dressed up in a purple spangly dress with fake gems for this dance, and that she was a churchgoer who struggled to fit in at Richmond High. What those slime did to her was beyond cruel, it's just unimaginable.

 

[Dani_md]

You know something about this attack reminds me of this crime:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Harris_County,_Texas_hate_crime_assault

I am not comparing the "hate crime" aspect-the victim in the case I referenced was assaulted over a period of 5 hours while at a party. He then lay outside for another 10 hours until he was found. While the main perps were convicted of life and 90 years respectively, I want to know how the other kids at the party can live with themselves, especially since the victim committed suicide one year later?

Oh my goodness, I remember when this happened. I would come here and try to find updates, I never knew he committed suicide. How tragic and how sad that everyone knew who "he" was. I remember the news articles posting his pictures too.

 

[Missizzy]

Two years ago, our quaint little town was rocked by teen "sex dances"--non-school sponsored fundraisers. They spread like wildfire and parents were literally caught unawares. A dance sounded like great fun. These dances were raising funds for Planned Parenthood and for educational trips. All dances to date had been school sponsored so few questions were asked. Security had always been fine. What could go wrong?

We, as parents, should have been ashamed of ourselves, though, as these dances quickly became totally inappropriate and highly dangerous. College boys as chaperones??!! I can't tell you, though, how many very "good" kids were involved. Below is a link to two articles about these dances which were finally broken up by local police. Sadly, the young lady mentioned who was found unconscious did turn out to be sexually assaulted.

http://archive.dailytidings.com/2007/0920/stories/0920_sex_dance.php

http://archive.dailytidings.com/2007/0830/stories/0830_oped_edit.php

I realize that the Richmond High dance was school sponsored and thus, parents have an expectation of security. That, and a dollar might get you a cup of coffee. My suggestion is for parents to check out planned security for any dance. Talk to the principal. I also highly suggest calling the local police to see if they have any advice or insight.

It never ceases to amaze me at how careful we will be with our six year olds and then how careless we are with our 16 year olds. I wonder how many parents of teens have chaperoned at a dance in the last five years or so. I think you would be gob-smacked at what goes on. Yes, children must grow and mature but they continue to require guidance and close supervision to be safe. Remember, kids' brains are still not fully developed until they are in their twenties. After raising 13, I can guarantee you, if a mistake or a poor choice can be made, it will. We have to remain vigilant!! Trust me, just because they're in high school, you're not done as a parent--not by a long shot.

My heart breaks for this young lady. Her school and her community failed her. She was so vulnerable and the vultures were circling. I can only pray that her pain is a catalyst for greater safety at this and many many other schools.

 

[joga]

Exactly, the bottom line. A place where this happens, spectators come to watch and zero out of twenty (or whatever) fail to help. It is a different world than most are use too. High school campus gated and locked. Too much danger to protect all the students all the time.

Folks that live in these areas need to be aware that it is not safe.

I live in a more "normal" neighborhood, and the only danger my son faces when he goes to his high-school dance is the girls with low cut, high slit dresses, complete with g-string and garters, grind dancing with him.

ah the old, oh that would never happen in my town!!...lol. how many times have we seen that kind of thinking shot down? anything can happen to anyone at anytime, anywhere. would you have considered columbine high to be in a "more normal" neighborhood?

 

[Missizzy]

Joga--That's my point exactly. "My" sweet, quaint little town full of kind-hearted gentle teens would never do anything horrid like this. Yeah, right. And where did the rapist live who hurt my children and so many others? In this wonderful community. The reason I posted the links above is so people can be reminded that even in "nice" towns, unspeakable acts happen. It's too early to really be pointing fingers. I'm just trying to say that bad things happen everywhere and rationalizing away danger, never works.

People can be evil and they can be anywhere.

 

[Texas Mist]

video report

http://www.ktvu.com/video/21467972/index.html


Ortega, apparently, has no fear as he didn't wear a vest (JMOOOC)

 

[Wudge]

With all due respect, I'm an atheist, and therefore "godless," and I have morals. One is capable of knowing right from wrong without a fear of god's reckoning. I understand that to the faithful their god is a very important part of their world view but I hope you can understand that one can be godless and still be a morally guided person. I agree that we are living in a culture in crisis but I think that it has more to do with a lack of punishment/consequences in the here and now, as opposed to some future reckoning.

'Capable'. Yes. If they are so taught.

Morality is a main teaching of all major religions. When religious teaching is reduced, something must necessarily fill that gap just to maintain the status quo. However, the filling of that gap is obviously not coming from improved parenting. And you will not find street creed filling the gap, which is where ever more young people gain their sense of morality today.

Atheists are the fastest growing religious identification (a seeming oxymoron) group in America. If we eliminate God and a fear of reckoning, anything would and will go. At that point, our society would have reached the apex in liberal permissiveness.

Don't look past the tremendous restraint that a God figure places on our society and various cultures. Remove that restraint and our society would be a very, very different world, and the behavior that we detest today would become still far, far uglier.

I don't discount the possibity that someday we will become a Godless society. The good news is that I don't expect to live to see it.

FWIW

 

[Wudge]

I think I read somewhere if LE can prove that they were doing more than just watching--if they cheered or helped the rapists in any way, they can be prosecuted. I'm not a lawyer--I'm just guessing. Any lawyers out there??

If there is evidence that a person encouraged or urged another person to commit a crime, they could be indicted and tried as an accomplice.

 

[JBean]

If there is evidence that a person encouraged or urged another person to commit a crime, they could be indicted and tried as an accomplice.

I just listened to a the Deputy DA and she said exactly this. She said if they can prove that anyone encouraged or egged anyone on they will be charged and tried as principles and are as guilty as those that actually committed the crime.

Also included in the intervewi was a clip of one of the students that was there speaking at a meeting of the school yesterday. She said there was group of boys and men hanging outside the campus and everyone, including the security and school officials knew they were there, yet did nothing to make them disperse or check their ID's to find out who they were or what they were doing there.
She also said the security on the campus is not adequate in general and she feels they have been ostrasized from the district because of the minorities on their campus.

 

[JBean]

Yes there is. As I said, it is my understanding in CA, it is against the law to witness a sexual assault and not report if the victim is 14 or under. This law seems a little incomplete.

According to the asst DA, there is no crime if you watch and do not do anything. but if you yell or encourage or participate in any way at all and then all bets are off if they can prove it.

I will post this interview on KFI that I heard when the podcast becomes available. It was very informative.

 

[WhyaDuck?]

The following is kind of O/T, but this is a topic that fascinates me, ethically-speaking.

On the subject of the moral obligations of bystanders (I am not qualified to speak on the subject of legal results), here's a quote from the Talmud some of you might be familiar with:

If one person is able to save another and does not save him, he transgresses the commandment neither shalt thou stand idly by the blood of thy neighbor (Leviticus 19:16)... Although there is no flogging for these prohibitions, because their breach involves no action, the offense is most serious, for if one destroys the life of a single Israelite, it is regarded as though he destroyed the whole world, and if one preserves the life of a single Israelite, it is regarded as though he preserved the whole world...


(For me, I think you can replace "Israelite" with "creature" or "human.")

For more on this topic for those interested, here's an interesting little paper:
http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/kitveyet/assia_english/kirschenbaum.htm

 

[Wudge]

I just listened to a the Deputy DA and she said exactly this. She said if they can prove that anyone encouraged or egged anyone on they will be charged and tried as principles and are as guilty as those that actually committed the crime.

Also included in the intervewi was a clip of one of the students that was there speaking at a meeting of the school yesterday. She said there was group of boys and men hanging outside the campus and everyone, including the security and school officials knew they were there, yet did nothing to make them disperse or check their ID's to find out who they were or what they were doing there.
She also said the security on the campus is not adequate in general and she feels they have been ostrasized from the district because of the minorities on their campus.

Hello Jill. Before, during or after a crime has taken place, a person can become an accomplice or a co-conspirator or an aider and abettor in a truly short period of time.

As regards the security at the dance, I highly suspect the school will soon face a civil lawsuit. This is not a case that a schoolboard would want to a jury to decide.

 

[JBean]

Hello Jill. Before, during or after a crime has taken place, a person can become an accomplice or a co-conspirator or an aider and abettor in a truly short period of time.

As regards the security at the dance, I highly suspect the school will soon face a civil lawsuit. This is not a case that a schoolboard would want to a jury to decide.

Hi Wudge.
That is pretty much exactly what the deputy DA said about aiding ,abetting and being a co-conspirator.

She did try to shift the blame squarely on the shoulders of the perps, as it should be, but she defintiely was dodging the notion that any other agency or authority should be blamed at this time. I think any time a school sanctioned event is held ESPECIALLY in a high risk area, LE ,district and school official have to take extra measures to make sure it is safety first. Heck, any time you have a large concentration of young people there are things that you have to expect to happen.
Sounds from the student that spoke at the school meeting as though there is very little security on that campus in the first place.
heads are gonna roll on this one.
My biggest concern is if people wouldn;t even call 911, who is going to step up as witnesses and finger the main offenders? Unless there is some great DNA or other solid forensics, I am afarid these people are going to be hard to convict. if for no other reason, how many want to stand up in court and i say yeah I watched the whole thing and it was him and him and btw I did nothing.
Hopefully they can get those phone clips and pictures, they are going to need them imo.