GUILTY CA - Massive fire at Oakland warehouse party, 36 dead, 2 Dec 2016 #3

[borndem]

Here is another article that I just noticed, via NPR. It's about OFD and how their inspection routine was just recently changed (after the fire) from yearly inspections to every-other-year inspections, and other discussion.

[h=1]New Reporting Shows Ghost Ship Warehouse Was All But Invisible To Oakland Fire Dept.[/h]



December 26, 20165:16 PM ET
Heard on All Things Considered


NPR's Ari Shapiro talks with Thomas Fuller, San Francisco bureau chief for The New York Times, about his reporting on the Ghost Ship fire in Oakland that left 36 dead, many of them young.

http://www.npr.org/2016/12/26/50702...house-was-all-but-invisible-to-oakland-fire-d

 

[Jax49]

Old article but I'd missed the BBM comment about the kids. I'm left wondering if the info is accurate.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-held-sex-parties-prison-says-father-law.html

The conditions under which the children were returned had one marginal benefit - they prevented them living at the warehouse when it was being used for parties, meaning they were not there when fire engulfed it.

 

[rascal32]

I had not heard the kids had been taken away.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[human]

Old article but I'd missed the BBM comment about the kids. I'm left wondering if the info is accurate.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-held-sex-parties-prison-says-father-law.html

I think they could be there if no parties.

Really, CPS allows children to live in nasty situations. Keeping kids with parents is number one.

It sounds like Derick and Micah met the improvements such as no drugs.

I was shocked and sickened to find out how children are looked upon. They are possessions of parents. Laws protect parents.

 

[human]

This is long. Ten pages. It will give you the information on how workers have to judge child safety. It really identifies how value judgments are not acceptable.

Me, I am revolted. But the law states otherwise.

I think the electric stuff should have been considered as child safety issues

http://action4cp.org/documents/2008/pdf/Jan-2008LivingArrangementsEndanger.pdf

 

[DexterMorgan]

This is long. Ten pages. It will give you the information on how workers have to judge child safety. It really identifies how value judgments are not acceptable.

Me, I am revolted. But the law states otherwise.

I think the electric stuff should have been considered as child safety issues

http://action4cp.org/documents/2008/pdf/Jan-2008LivingArrangementsEndanger.pdf

Not only that. But we all know that Oakland cps cant afford to take more kids out of their homes unless they truly have to.

Plus you are right. Every childs death case on ws seems to consist of 1000 warning signs. But cps never took the kids. Or they were overworked an lied on reports about seeing the kids, and everything else.

And its a dang shame that government spending never goes to hiring 100% more cps workers.

Its a shame. Some of these workers have stacks of cases with no help.

And God forbid if a worker gets sick and has to miss days. This means that others would have to juggle their coworkers cases as well.

Thanks Human for your knowledge and diligence.

 

[MsMarple]

bbm Hmmm, good point. I wonder if it is indeed a false claim, could there be a suit of some kind to throw back on them? I'm sure the OFD wouldn't want to sling carp against anyone, but those stmts/accusations are beyond the pale, if false, IMO.

I wouldn't be surprised if the claim is true; mainly I was pointing out that Derick's attorney has grabbed onto it in order to somehow make it someone else's fault instead of his client's fault.

Also, in the lawsuits filed last week the plaintiffs allege that:

The families allege that members of the Oakland Fire Department actually “attended and held a music event” at the building prior to the deadly fire.

“There was notice, both, of course to the owner, who has a responsibility to know what’s going on in her building. But, also notice to the city and to, the police knew, the firemen knew. This is really egregious negligence of the highest level.”

http://wwlp.com/2016/12/26/oakland-warehouse-fire-lawsuit/

So I tend to believe it happened although it's surprising that firefighters would actually hold an event in the GS as opposed to just attending an event so I'd like to see more info about that. And it still leaves me with the question of whether or not the firefighters broke the law by going there and not filing a report that it was dangerous.

All in all I hold Derick Ion and Micah Allison for the lion's share of the blame because they were there on a daily basis. Tenants, including those who moved out because of safety concerns all warned Ion and wife that the GS was a tinderbox yet he laughed it off.

I hold Ng, the owner, responsible too. She had said that she was unaware that people lived in the GS but I think that's a lie. I think she and her daughter Eva knew what was going on and chose to ignore it since the rent got paid every month.

Yeah, the city is responsible for inspecting the buildings and the GS hadn't been looked at for decades but to me anyway, that's more about protecting stupid people from themselves. IOW those who own and/or live in these warehouses should know that ignoring fire safety measures could lead to destruction of property and even death.

Still, the city and county have a system in place to make sure buildings are safe so it's hard to excuse them for letting the GS slip between the cracks. They have funds to hire 62 people yet hadn't bothered to so they can't claim to be understaffed, just that they were dragging their heels. And reporters noticed that the OFD changed it's website after the fire regarding mandatory inspections - they changed it from every year to every two years. Makes ya go hmmm...

http://wvik.org/post/new-reporting-...-was-all-invisible-oakland-fire-dept#stream/0

 

[CARIIS]

I wouldn't be surprised if the claim is true; mainly I was pointing out that Derick's attorney has grabbed onto it in order to somehow make it someone else's fault instead of his client's fault.

Also, in the lawsuits filed last week the plaintiffs allege that:



http://wwlp.com/2016/12/26/oakland-warehouse-fire-lawsuit/

So I tend to believe it happened although it's surprising that firefighters would actually hold an event in the GS as opposed to just attending an event so I'd like to see more info about that. And it still leaves me with the question of whether or not the firefighters broke the law by going there and not filing a report that it was dangerous.

All in all I hold Derick Ion and Micah Allison for the lion's share of the blame because they were there on a daily basis. Tenants, including those who moved out because of safety concerns all warned Ion and wife that the GS was a tinderbox yet he laughed it off.

I hold Ng, the owner, responsible too. She had said that she was unaware that people lived in the GS but I think that's a lie. I think she and her daughter Eva knew what was going on and chose to ignore it since the rent got paid every month.

Yeah, the city is responsible for inspecting the buildings and the GS hadn't been looked at for decades but to me anyway, that's more about protecting stupid people from themselves. IOW those who own and/or live in these warehouses should know that ignoring fire safety measures could lead to destruction of property and even death.

Still, the city and county have a system in place to make sure buildings are safe so it's hard to excuse them for letting the GS slip between the cracks. They have funds to hire 62 people yet hadn't bothered to so they can't claim to be understaffed, just that they were dragging their heels. And reporters noticed that the OFD changed it's website after the fire regarding mandatory inspections - they changed it from every year to every two years. Makes ya go hmmm...

http://wvik.org/post/new-reporting-...-was-all-invisible-oakland-fire-dept#stream/0

The only thing that comes to mind is "that is fuc8ed up"

Peroid.

What kind of idiots are you folks? You now make it less safe than it was a month ago when 36 young people lost their lives?

What is wrong with you all? And what really gets me is after the first week of press conferences, they gave all of us the feeling of wow govt officials who care --

well that is going down the toilet - and it's worse cause you all acted different than other govt people for the first week - now you turn out to be sleazier than the others- -at least they are sleazebags throughout

I cannot imagine what Git feelings were when she read this

lets pretend school buses had seat belts - this is akin to removing them after what happened last month .

Or lets convert all TU 154 aircraft back into commercial service.

Or passing out 18 wheelers to terrorists

Or take away bullet proof vests from cops

shut down tsa (well now there is an idea!)

Lower the drinking age to 12

Legalize crack

Remove air bags

post the nuclear codes online

Makes zero sense

Well we will just add this to the last months events won't we??

Thank goodness I have you guys- people that discuss what is going on around us and it sure seems like its been horrible the last month

and oh god Jan 21 is closer and closer brother............

feels like betrayal to me

Miss mayor you get an academy award

shame shame shame on you

I better stop - I fear gonna need you guys new years - really scared of new years

going to snuggle up with my lady love bug!

 

[CARIIS]

Not only that. But we all know that Oakland cps cant afford to take more kids out of their homes unless they truly have to.

Plus you are right. Every childs death case on ws seems to consist of 1000 warning signs. But cps never took the kids. Or they were overworked an lied on reports about seeing the kids, and everything else.

And its a dang shame that government spending never goes to hiring 100% more cps workers.

Its a shame. Some of these workers have stacks of cases with no help.

And God forbid if a worker gets sick and has to miss days. This means that others would have to juggle their coworkers cases as well.

Thanks Human for your knowledge and diligence.

Oh it is awful. The pay is the pitts. The turnover rate at CPS is hideous - burn out. It messes everything up over and over - The kids are just getting used to the case worker in really tough times

the parents are trying (most times) to comply, and then a strager comes into their lives with a totally different view of what they are doing. Then there court stuff gets all messed up

its a really sad story for the kids

the world becomes a unsafe place, bio mom is losing her marbles cause now she is being told all different things by her thrid caseworker in 4 months

the pitts

 

[CARIIS]

I think they could be there if no parties.

Really, CPS allows children to live in nasty situations. Keeping kids with parents is number one.

It sounds like Derick and Micah met the improvements such as no drugs.

I was shocked and sickened to find out how children are looked upon. They are possessions of parents. Laws protect parents.

My dear you and I are older! Lets hope it has gotten a bit better than our day!

 

[CARIIS]

I had not heard the kids had been taken away.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I only heard it in the Marriot report but vividly remember it - I was so glad to hear it was the children were taken away with ladies who were wearing badges

It was the news guy who followed him and the wife into the hotel corridor the first time we saw them after the murders

 

[CARIIS]

Cps wouldn't want the kids to live under the same roof with 20 other strangers as well. Plus did the staircase have hand rails support?

If not. Then thats a kiddie safety Hazzard. Jmo

Oh the whole thing noise all night, big people in and out all the time.

hearing big people fight

showering in a disgusting place

seeing big people running around with fire extinguishers

listening to mommy and daddy telling other big people to lie

watching moommy and daddy act like he did on that one video - my daddies crazy

probably not allowed to have peers over



I would really love to know exactly what it was that the duo DID for the agency to return them?

They had to put down an address?

 

[CARIIS]

Old article but I'd missed the BBM comment about the kids. I'm left wondering if the info is accurate.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-held-sex-parties-prison-says-father-law.html

oh . my. goodness.

 

[CARIIS]

This is what I remembered as far as two agencies involved and now they are gonna try to blame each other

Services in Los Angeles and Oakland were involved he said.
Allison, an English teacher, told DailyMail.com: 'Someone obviously dropped the ball between LA Child Protective Services and the Oakland one.

They were clearly not communicating, there was no follow up apparently.'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ies-prison-says-father-law.html#ixzz4UC7g6XtZ
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[mom2four717]

Tonight a neighbor's home burned out of control until it was a total loss. The electric company cut the power including to our house. In the pitch black, the house I have lived in for 12 years was difficult to navigate. The dark and the smell of smoke made me think of this Oakland fire. It was frightening even knowing I wasn't in any immediate danger.
I have developed a new respect for fire and keeping my family safe. Perhaps that is one good thing that has come from these devastating events.

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

Stephen Curry raises over $45,000 for victims of Oakland warehouse fire with auction of custom-made sneakers

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-warehouse-fire-auction-custom-sneakers.html

 

[CARIIS]

Tonight a neighbor's home burned out of control until it was a total loss. The electric company cut the power including to our house. In the pitch black, the house I have lived in for 12 years was difficult to navigate. The dark and the smell of smoke made me think of this Oakland fire. It was frightening even knowing I wasn't in any immediate danger.
I have developed a new respect for fire and keeping my family safe. Perhaps that is one good thing that has come from these devastating events.

ME too I just opened my Amazon package of "Fire Gone " two cans

the fire extinguisher has been under the night stand in the bedroom since

My two cans are going in the kitchen . They are honestly (opened the box in the bedroom !) right there on the bedroom nighstand!

I will move them to the kitchen when I get my tush off the bed!!

 

[MsMarple]

Okay, I'm starting to get a little tired of reading comments like this from artists and musicians who live in live/work warehouses:

Conan Newton remembers some wild New Year’s Eve shows at warehouses in Oakland. Once, the musician says, someone fired a tinder-dry Christmas tree from a cannon. At other shows, fireworks were set off outside the building at midnight.

“There’s a certain amount of danger that can be alluring,” said Newton, who has performed under his stage name, Conan Neutron, at underground shows in Oakland for nearly two decades. But at times, he admitted, “you looked around and thought, ‘Hey, this can’t possibly be safe.’”
...
To some, Oakland’s artist warehouses are dangerous labyrinths of slapdash construction and faulty electrical wiring that were always ripe for disaster. To others, they are bright incubators for outré music, Burning Man art cars, and DIY metalwork and mind-bending installation pieces. And, occasionally, they provide space for raucous parties.
...
“We cannot advertise, we can’t invite the wider public,” said Jonah Strauss, a sound engineer and founder of the Oakland Warehouse Coalition, a group that is pushing for stronger tenant protections in illegal live-work spaces.

“The way this affects New Year’s Eve is this would be a time for us to come together and engage in revelry,” Strauss added. “But we can’t do it.”

http://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/On-New-Year-s-Eve-at-Oakland-warehouses-the-10827692.php

Most of the comments I've read are on SM so I can't link them but a few just set my teeth on edge, like how important it is for artists to live in "creative" spaces and how some would rather risk living in unsafe buildings rather than go "mainstream" in their lifestyles.

And when their space fails a fire inspection they whine about it. Case in point: The Burnt Ramen, a warehouse in Richmond, was recently closed down. Odd thing is that they actually were closed down back in March 2003.

From their website:

BURNT RAMEN CLOSING !

Well its true. Burnt Ramen's venue is effectively shut down. Burnt Ramen shows are nada mas! The Fire Marshall inspected us on wed afternoon and last night the pigs showed up and made it clear the intentions of the city/fire Marshall/pigs that they want Burnt Ramen shut down or forced to fit into a business mold. I refuse to compromise my artistic vision in order to keep the Ramen operating. I live by the code of NO RULES, NO SIGNS, and NO RESTRICTIONS and so therefore will not try to make Burnt Ramen a business that's up to code and respected by the mainstream money minded morons .

So after the Fire Marshall shut them down in 2003 they continued hosting punk rock shows. All that changed was they were more subtle about advertising. And the owner has now started a to pay for repairs to bring it up to code. So much for "the code of NO RULES, NO SIGNS, and NO RESTRICTIONS and so therefore will not try to make Burnt Ramen a business that's up to code and respected by the mainstream money minded morons ." :facepalm:

I get the role the warehouses play in cities where rents are unaffordable to all but the well off but really, these statements are more about how people prefer to risk their lives in order to live in them, regardless of affordability.

It makes me sick reading how people miss the Ghostship and what it meant to the artist community. And how Derick Ion and Micah Allison were so important in that community. Yeah, right. I read enough stories of Ion going psycho on people and ripping them off of their money and belongings to know that the only people they ever helped were themselves.

I guess what I'm saying is if you want to live that kind of lifestyle, great, go for it. But don't try to draw in people who are unaware of fire hazards in your building in order to make some money off them. Despite the moaning and groaning about venues being shut down there are plenty of clubs that are safe and offer the kind of edgy music the party goers at the GS that night wanted to hear.

Anyway, y'all have a safe and Happy New Year!!

:newyear: :confetti: artyguy2:

 

[DexterMorgan]

If a off duty cop is at a bar.

Then we can't sue him for not reporting patrons leaving the bar and possibly about to drive under the influence. Jmo.

So maybe the firefighters that attended the party was the same thing.

Idk.

 

[mom2four717]

Stephen Curry raises over $45,000 for victims of Oakland warehouse fire with auction of custom-made sneakers

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-warehouse-fire-auction-custom-sneakers.html

Are the victims that the money was raised for the families of the deceased or the displaced residents?
I've even seen money being distributed to housemates of the deceased. Thoughtful for housemates who may be missing a part of their rent unexpectedly.
This has brought to mind, what is art? If I want to, say, paint sneakers and it's "my art" could I move into potentially subsidised housing to focus on my creativity?

Lots of questions. I wish I could have all of you over for coffee and discuss.