CA - Rebecca Zahau Nalepa - suicide or murder? #11

[jjenny]

An interesting article written by a lawyer called "Stop Calling It Murder".

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...bysitter-rebecca-zahau-s-death-no-murder.html

Police are incapable of making a mistake? For instance, the hanging death of Phyllis Ellen Tamm was ruled a suicide. But a serial killer later confessed to murdering her.

 

[IWannaKnow]

There really weren't any other balconies on the main house. Certainly none at all like the one she used.

And, regarding access to the stairway that leads to the "servant's quarters" in the main house: The doorway at the north end of the landing on the main staircase, opens directly to the "servant's quarters" staircase, which goes directly to that guest bedroom and the balcony she used.

See, the door image at hinkymeter

Thanks for the photo. I studied the floor plans from the proposed renovation very closely.

I probably mis-spoke other "balconies" per se. She could have used the second floor railing near where Max went over. That would be more fitting and appropriate in my mind to the 'she was distraught' theme. Then there is the cement balustrade around the deck off the master bedroom which faces the street and the ocean. If she was so intent on humiliating herself, why not go all the way?

 

[elementry]

Acrylic paint is almost always squeezed from the tube directly onto the brush, particularly when painting block letters or signs. That's the beauty of acrylic paint - it gives a nice, solid block of color.

Also, artists who paint in block letters are painting in form, meaning that it doesn't resemble one's handwriting at all. A good artist can duplicate a font so that it will appear to be produced by a machine because the letters will be precise. You wouldn't be able to tell block letter painting (if done by someone who knows art) from one artist to another.

My humble two cents as an artist.

Can you imagine any reason at this point for LE not to release a photo of the actual block lettered message? I do wonder how much other info they gathered in the course of the investigation that they've decided to leave out for public consumption; besides all they stuff that has been sussed out and discussed on these forums and elsewhere. I mean totally unknown facts to the public. Those could be in three forms: facts notated by LE but not made public, and then the facts that have gone unrecorded but are known to some in LE, lastly the stuff they totally missed.

 

[jjenny]

Does anyone know the height of the railing on the balcony, I’ve been trying to calculate it by comparing it to the evidence ruler and am coming up with around 45”

Police have said about 3 feet.

 

[SunnieRN]

Thanks for the welcome and for repeating your question.

I was referring to Rebecca's statements to the authorities that she had found Max unresponsive, yet she says she heard him say "Ocean". Was he nonresponsive, or was he talking and then became nonresponsive? It really can't be both ways.

Also, she says she was in a downstairs bathroom, I believe, but only heard a crash and found Max at the bottom of the stairs. My husband and I were discussing this. When our kids are running aroun, we can hear them, particularly if they are a floor above us. If Max was riding his scooter around upstairs, she could have heard the wheels. Whenever our kids would try to roll something around with wheels upstairs, the sound would be really noticeable. If the area was uncarpeted upstairs, the noises would be even louder. If there was carpeting, there would be enough traction that Max couldn't slip over the top of the rail even if he tripped over the dog or while riding his scooter.

So that's what I find unbelievable. There can't be silence then sudden noise. Something that causes that much of a violent fall makes some discernible sound, particularly if it happens a floor above.

The answer could be that Rebecca wasn't a good witness. Some people just aren't. Perhaps she wasn't articulate, either due to a language barrier or fear. Perhaps she just isn't a naturally observant person. But I'd think that an accident that resulted in a child's death would produce more than a single sound.

Thank you for answering. We have been discussing these questions and there seems to be a divided opinion.:waitasec:

My understanding is that there was carpeting on the second level. Thick carpet. I can now see, that if the accident did happen as the ME described, that there is only that one spot that Max at his height would have been able to go over.

I am not sure where the top of the stairway sits, in relationship to where Rebecca was in the bathroom.

I can imagine Rebecca being in complete shock, finding Max like that, and the chandelier on the ground also. I don't think I would be a 'good witness' either, if it were a loved one. I am not sure I would remember if I had turned someone over or not, as my instincts (and training) would most likely take over, as my emotions ran rampant.

Thank you again for answering my ramblings!!

 

[SunnieRN]

Thanks for the awesome welcome Sunnie, and sorry for taking so long in getting back to this.
You’re right; the majority of the internal neck injuries were on the left, which may be explained be the knot of the noose being toward the right of the neck as is suggested in the autopsy report.
A centralized knot would produce relatively equal, bilateral, internal injuries.
A knot on the right will tilt the body and concentrate injuries on the left side of the neck.
(No CPR manikins were injured in this reconstruction )

Thank you for this. With the petechiae and the broken hyoid bone, cartelidge tissue, any ideas pertaining to strangulation, prior to hanging?

 

[CDS22]

Can you imagine any reason at this point for LE not to release a photo of the actual block lettered message? I do wonder how much other info they gathered in the course of the investigation that they've decided to leave out for public consumption; besides all they stuff that has been sussed out and discussed on these forums and elsewhere. I mean totally unknown facts to the public. Those could be in three forms: facts notated by LE but not made public, and then the facts that have gone unrecorded but are known to some in LE, lastly the stuff they totally missed.

Sometimes I think they didn't want any information about the message to get out to the public for some reason known only to them, but had no choice since Rebecca's sister mentioned it to the press.

I saw a photo of the lettering, but I am pretty sure it was a simulation. I can't recall where I saw it, but can't imagine how seeing it could help anyone simply because it is block lettering. I can paint something in block letters, as can an artist next to me, and you wouldn't be able to tell who did what if we were fairly decent at our craft. Block letters are kind of hard to distinguish, particularly in a thicker paint like acrylic.

 

[lauriej]

Curious about something. Does Coronado LE even have a homicide division? Isn't the fact that they don't, the reason that SDSD was called in?

I am curious as to how many people entered the home, prior to an actual homicide team entered and gathered evidence?

..no, they do not..

http://ktar.com/category/local-news-articles/20110715/Body-found-at-SoCal-mansion-may-be-suicide

"Coronado, a wealthy seaside suburb of about 24,000 people on San Diego Bay, had one homicide last year. The Police Department, which doesn't have a homicide unit, asked the [San Diego] Sheriff's Department to help with the investigation."

..according to the RZ investigative/autopsy report:

.."Coronado Fire Dept. arrived at 6:53 and confirmed the death without intervention. Coronado Police also responded. Due to the unusual circumstances San Diego Sheriff homicide detectives were contacted and initiated an investigation."

..i don't know when they actually went into the house, i do recall that on day 1 the news reports were saying that they were waiting on a S/W before entering.

..we may be getting a look at those S/W's soon (someone--sorry i forget who it was!) linked to a new message of the sheriff's site today..

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/index.html

Search Warrants: Some media agencies have expressed an interest in seeking release of search warrants through the Superior Court. For your convenience, the search warrant numbers are 41227 (Downtown Court) and 11-164 & 11-165 (South Bay Branch).

 

[SunnieRN]

I disagree. Why would she throw in the part about Dina trying to prevent RN from attending his soccer games because she was so jealous of how much Max loved her? I think that is pretty 'vicious' to say about a mother who just lost her only child, especially while RN was supposed to be watching him. imoo

Anger, grief, lack of common sense? Maybe it was said to be vicious, but I didn't see the actual interview, didn't see her speak, or her body mechanics, facial expressions, so I will withhold judgement at this time.

 

[katydid23]

Thanks for the welcome and for repeating your question.

I was referring to Rebecca's statements to the authorities that she had found Max unresponsive, yet she says she heard him say "Ocean". Was he nonresponsive, or was he talking and then became nonresponsive? It really can't be both ways.

Also, she says she was in a downstairs bathroom, I believe, but only heard a crash and found Max at the bottom of the stairs. My husband and I were discussing this. When our kids are running aroun, we can hear them, particularly if they are a floor above us. If Max was riding his scooter around upstairs, she could have heard the wheels. Whenever our kids would try to roll something around with wheels upstairs, the sound would be really noticeable. If the area was uncarpeted upstairs, the noises would be even louder. If there was carpeting, there would be enough traction that Max couldn't slip over the top of the rail even if he tripped over the dog or while riding his scooter.

So that's what I find unbelievable. There can't be silence then sudden noise. Something that causes that much of a violent fall makes some discernible sound, particularly if it happens a floor above.

The answer could be that Rebecca wasn't a good witness. Some people just aren't. Perhaps she wasn't articulate, either due to a language barrier or fear. Perhaps she just isn't a naturally observant person. But I'd think that an accident that resulted in a child's death would produce more than a single sound.

Thank you so much for this post. You make a lot of good points. I agree with you about the confusion of the way RN found the child. Was he unresponsive, as reported? According to the report he landed face first on the floor. So she would have had to turn him over to do any CPR compressions. Saying she did not remember if she did so seems odd, imo. That would be a pretty memorable thing because one would know how dangerous that would be in itself. It would have to be done with some care and focus, yet she did not remember if she even did so. But if she didn't then she did not do any compressions either, so?
And I still have trouble believing the whole 'Ocean' thing too. If Max could talk at all, which I doubt, I think he would be crying or whimpering and calling for mommy or saying help, not calmly saying the word 'Ocean' to explain how he supposedly fell. That makes no sense according to any of the accidents involving children that I have seen. imoo

I agree about her answer about being in the bathroom and hearing the crash. She also said that she last she had seen him, 10 to 20 minutes earlier, he was in the kitchen. So I have a problem with her not listening for changes like the little boy, in her care, running from the kitchen and going back upstairs. Especially if he were to later be running, scooting, climbing or planking on the stairwell. maybe because she did not have children previously it was not second nature to her. But part of watching a 6 yr old, even if you are in the bathroom, is keeping the door open a crack and listening to where those little feet are going and why. For her to say he was in the kitchen, then 20 minutes later she hears a crash, and he was dead, that is just not responsible behavior on her part, imo.

 

[elementry]

Sometimes I think they didn't want any information about the message to get out to the public for some reason known only to them, but had no choice since Rebecca's sister mentioned it to the press.

I saw a photo of the lettering, but I am pretty sure it was a simulation. I can't recall where I saw it, but can't imagine how seeing it could help anyone simply because it is block lettering. I can paint something in block letters, as can an artist next to me, and you wouldn't be able to tell who did what if we were fairly decent at our craft. Block letters are kind of hard to distinguish, particularly in a thicker paint like acrylic.

Depending how you look at if, LE either decided to force the Zahau's hand into releasing the message, or in fact it is just LE policy not to go there (make public on their own), regarding "messages" in a declared suicide.

I disagree that there's nothing possibly to be gained by seeing it. How would one know without getting a look. You don't want to see it? Splotches, irregularities, other possible telltale markings, prints or smudges corresponding to the paint marks on RZ? "Kilroy Was Here" scribbled in tiny print?

In any case, why on earth NOT release it at this point; especially with the variance of the Zahau's account of the wording vs. the ME's version. There's one quick and easy way to reconcile that: post the picture.

I still find it odd also, if in fact it's so, that LE actually painted out the message over the door evidence. Was that ever verified? I thought Bremner alleged that.

The only reason I could see for LE to hold it back would be because there is something there in the styling or something that only a potential perp or witness might know about, and therefore it does have some unique aspect that LE wouldn't want in the generally known facts of the case. LE was awfully cagey in their presentation about this particular piece of evidence.

 

[CDS22]

Thank you so much for this post. You make a lot of good points. I agree with you about the confusion of the way RN found the child. Was he unresponsive, as reported? According to the report he landed face first on the floor. So she would have had to turn him over to do any CPR compressions. Saying she did not remember if she did so seems odd, imo. That would be a pretty memorable thing because one would know how dangerous that would be in itself. It would have to be done with some care and focus, yet she did not remember if she even did so. But if she didn't then she did not do any compressions either, so?
And I still have trouble believing the whole 'Ocean' thing too. If Max could talk at all, which I doubt, I think he would be crying or whimpering and calling for mommy or saying help, not calmly saying the word 'Ocean' to explain how he supposedly fell. That makes no sense according to any of the accidents involving children that I have seen. imoo

I agree about her answer about being in the bathroom and hearing the crash. She also said that she last she had seen him, 10 to 20 minutes earlier, he was in the kitchen. So I have a problem with her not listening for changes like the little boy, in her care, running from the kitchen and going back upstairs. Especially if he were to later be running, scooting, climbing or planking on the stairwell. maybe because she did not have children previously it was not second nature to her. But part of watching a 6 yr old, even if you are in the bathroom, is keeping the door open a crack and listening to where those little feet are going and why. For her to say he was in the kitchen, then 20 minutes later she hears a crash, and he was dead, that is just not responsible behavior on her part, imo.

I've been reading a lot of posts on this forum about the case, so I can't recall where I read it, but it was in one of the official reports. It stated that the emergency workers walked in on Rebecca calling out Max's name, not doing CPR on him. Yet the news media said she did CPR on him immediately while the sister called 911. So I don't know what to make of the discrepancies. Shoddy reporting by others? Misrepresentation on Rebecca's part?

I'm not sitting in judgement of Rebecca. We never know how we're going to respond in a tragedy, and we can respond very differently to two very similar tragedies in a row. And I know health care professionals who behave one way at work, and when a tragedy happens at home, they behave quite another way because it's different when it happens to you. It's just our imperfect human nature. But things didn't go down the way some things said in the press would have us believe, IMO.

 

[katydid23]

Anger, grief, lack of common sense? Maybe it was said to be vicious, but I didn't see the actual interview, didn't see her speak, or her body mechanics, facial expressions, so I will withhold judgement at this time.

IMO, even talking about comparing how much Max loved RN in comparison to how much he loved his mother is a vicious thing to do. I don't care about her body language or her facial expressions or anything like that. Just the fact that she would make a statement like that after Max died violently while in the care of RN is horrendous behavior on the part of Mary Z, imo.

 

[elementry]

IMO, even talking about comparing how much Max loved RN in comparison to how much he loved his mother is a vicious thing to do. I don't care about her body language or her facial expressions or anything like that. Just the fact that she would make a statement like that after Max died violently while in the care of RN is horrendous behavior on the part of Mary Z, imo.

What if, building on your thesis, you add in that DS may have a longer history of rebuking, or condemning, or otherwise speaking disparagingly of RZ during RZ's years with JS? (It was alleged by supposed "insider" Chasing_Halos that DS had had RZ investigated for dirt or whatever; merest hearsay of course.)

And then what if Rebecca's sister really does think DS had something to do with RZ's wrongful death? Not to say that the sister should then go out and make FALSE statements, but if they are true, and she genuinely considers DS her sister's killer (directly or indirectly), then one can imagine why the gloves might come off in her public statements - not that even in this case it was the right or smart thing to do. Very provocative, but maybe that was the point. Also, ever hear of lashing out in pain? Sad case all around.

 

[deanna82437]

I've been reading a lot of posts on this forum about the case, so I can't recall where I read it, but it was in one of the official reports. It stated that the emergency workers walked in on Rebecca calling out Max's name, not doing CPR on him. Yet the news media said she did CPR on him immediately while the sister called 911. So I don't know what to make of the discrepancies. Shoddy reporting by others? Misrepresentation on Rebecca's part?

I'm not sitting in judgement of Rebecca. We never know how we're going to respond in a tragedy, and we can respond very differently to two very similar tragedies in a row. And I know health care professionals who behave one way at work, and when a tragedy happens at home, they behave quite another way because it's different when it happens to you. It's just our imperfect human nature. But things didn't go down the way some things said in the press would have us believe, IMO.

BBM .. Do you have a link to that source/statement?

 

[cynic]

Thank you for this. With the petechiae and the broken hyoid bone, cartelidge tissue, any ideas pertaining to strangulation, prior to hanging?

The internal neck injuries in the AR could be explained by either a long drop hanging with the knot being to the right, or manual strangulation. The problem I have with the long drop hanging scenario that the police are putting forth is that there is no injury to the spine.
Also, if we are to accept that RN leaned over the railing and fell head first, where are the injuries to the front of RN’s torso as she scraped over the metal edges of the railing?
In the AR we see only one line describing RN’s torso injuries: None.

 

[katydid23]

What if, building on your thesis, you add in that DS may have a longer history of rebuking, or condemning, or otherwise speaking disparagingly of RZ during RZ's years with JS? (It was alleged by supposed "insider" Chasing_Halos that DS had had RZ investigated for dirt or whatever; merest hearsay of course.)

And then what if Rebecca's sister really does think DS had something to do with RZ's wrongful death? Not to say that the sister should then go out and make FALSE statements, but if they are true, and she genuinely considers DS her sister's killer (directly or indirectly), then one can imagine why the gloves might come off in her public statements - not that even in this case it was the right or smart thing to do. Very provocative, but maybe that was the point. Also, ever hear of lashing out in pain? Sad case all around.

Supposedly RN began seeing JS while he was still married to DS. So I can easily understand why DS might be rebuking and condemning RN at that time. Especially when she moved into the mansion and became the child's caretaker.

And if she thinks that DS is involved in RN's death, then fine, hire a private investigator and prove it. But to publicly question Max's love for his mother, while he is barely cold in his tiny grave is pathetic, imo. Nobody was publicly questioning RN's possible negligence or involvement in Max's death. She was being treated with respect. I think DS deserves the same respect.

She has a solid alibi for the time that RN was dying. Until they have something solid to refute that then I think they should show show decency towards a woman who has lost her only child. imoo

 

[CDS22]

BBM .. Do you have a link to that source/statement?

Didn't think I could find it, but I did:

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/10/rebecca-zahau-case-max-shacknai-autopsy-review/

 

[jjenny]

The internal neck injuries in the AR could be explained by either a long drop hanging with the knot being to the right, or manual strangulation. The problem I have with the long drop hanging scenario that the police are putting forth is that there is no injury to the spine.
Also, if we are to accept that RN leaned over the railing and fell head first, where are the injuries to the front of RN’s torso as she scraped over the metal edges of the railing?
In the AR we see only one line describing RN’s torso injuries: None.

And if she hit her head on the balcony railing/wall, or whatever else they think she might have hit her head on to explain her head trauma, did they find any of the fragments from the railing/wall embedded into her hair?

 

[cynic]

Police have said about 3 feet.

Thanks, I was hoping that there was a specific number, I know that current building code usually favors 42" to make it safer for children.