Found Alive CA - Sherri Papini, 34, Redding, 2 November 2016 - #23

[Deleted member 39678]

I wonder if people with PTSD like to talk about what caused their trauma? Or do they tend to avoid talking about it?

If pushed to talk about the trauma would they leave things out or say they don't remember details in order to shorten the conversation?

 

[Hope4More]

I can't tell if you're talking about your own post or someone else's?

Eh? I replied to you & your post.

 

[RickshawFan]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ing-captors-leaves-home-husband-two-kids.html

Can't help but notice the photos in this article showing Sherri P, husband and kids coming outside where reporters and photographers are waiting, Sherri comes out with a red dish of water and just sets it down and then returns to the house. She is totally covered, hood, cap, heavy coat but her little girl is not wearing a coat and is barefoot. This appears to me to be a photo op and nothing more.
...

SP's fingers aren't emaciated.

They are the fingers of a woman at normal weight, not plump, not bony, NORMAL.

Compare, if you will, Karen Carpenter's fingers, when she was anorexic and when she was at a more normal (though slender) weight. http://www.famousfix.com/topic/karen-carpenter/photos

The hands on the photos of SP are not the hands of an 87-pounder IME.

 

[RickshawFan]

I wonder if people with PTSD like to talk about what caused their trauma? Or do they tend to avoid talking about it?

If pushed to talk about the trauma would they leave things out or say they don't remember details in order to shorten the conversation?

Some trauma experts think it's a bad idea to talk about the trauma, since it can exacerbate the problem.
Some trauma experts have the opposite view.

As with any conversation, details depend on what needs to be communicated in that moment. That's the way human communication tends to work.

 

[Hope4More]

SP's fingers aren't emaciated.

They are the fingers of a woman at normal weight, not plump, not bony, NORMAL.

Compare, if you will, Karen Carpenter's fingers, when she was anorexic and when she was at a more normal (though slender) weight. http://www.famousfix.com/topic/karen-carpenter/photos

The hands on the photos of SP are not the hands of an 87-pounder IME.

(Hi there!)

Wasn't that photo taken nearly 6 weeks after her return?

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Some trauma experts think it's a bad idea to talk about the trauma, since it can exacerbate the problem.
Some trauma experts have the opposite view.

As with any conversation, details depend on what needs to be communicated in that moment. That's the way human communication tends to work.

Interesting and thanks for the reply.

I'm not so interested in if it's a good idea for a victim of PTSD to talk, I'm wondering more on what kind of behavior can be expected of a victim in regards to them discussing their trauma in detail. These victim's may communicate differently after suffering trauma. Or maybe they communicate just the same as before. I'm not sure.

 

[RickshawFan]

Interesting and thanks for the reply.

I'm not so interested in if it's a good idea for a victim of PTSD to talk, I'm wondering more on what kind of behavior can be expected of a victim in regards to them discussing their trauma in detail. These victim's may communicate differently after suffering trauma. Or maybe they communicate just the same as before. I'm not sure.

I have already answered that question. We're talking about human beings, correct? Human communication?

Communication is an individual thing and depends on context. That's true for any human communication. Why would communication by a victim of PTSD be any different?

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Why Science Tells Us Not to Rely on Eyewitness Accounts

Eyewitness testimony is fickle and, all too often, shockingly inaccurate

The uncritical acceptance of eyewitness accounts may stem from a popular misconception of how memory works. Many people believe that human memory works like a video recorder: the mind records events and then, on cue, plays back an exact replica of them. On the contrary, psychologists have found that memories are reconstructed rather than played back each time we recall them. The act of remembering, says eminent memory researcher and psychologist Elizabeth F. Loftus of the University of California, Irvine, is “more akin to putting puzzle pieces together than retrieving a video recording.” Even questioning by a lawyer can alter the witness’s testimony because fragments of the memory may unknowingly be combined with information provided by the questioner, leading to inaccurate recall.

A number of factors can reduce the accuracy of eyewitness identifications. Here are some of them:

• Extreme witness stress at the crime scene or during the identification process.
• Presence of weapons at the crime (because they can intensify stress and distract witnesses).
• Use of a disguise by the perpetrator such as a mask or wig.
• A racial disparity between the witness and the suspect.
• Brief viewing times at the lineup or during other identification procedures.
• A lack of distinctive characteristics of the suspect such as tattoos or extreme height.

I've always deemed eyewitness testimony in criminal cases as being less than ideal.


https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-it/

 

[Deleted member 39678]

That's not answerable. Communication is an individual thing and depends on context. That's true for any human communication. Why would communication by a victim of PTSD be any different?

So you're saying that PTSD has no effect on how a person communicates the details of their trauma? Or something else? I'm having a hard time understanding your post. Sorry.

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

I wonder if people with PTSD like to talk about what caused their trauma? Or do they tend to avoid talking about it?

If pushed to talk about the trauma would they leave things out or say they don't remember details in order to shorten the conversation?

Like to? Wrong term, no one *likes* to talk about the most horrifying things a person can experience. In my situation, there are details I will never discuss with anyone, too much trauma/pain. Avoid? Depends on the circumstances. With friends, family, I will discuss it, although there are limits to how much I can talk about. Therapist, will talk more to, but still there's a point where I have to stop. Coworkers, avoid, only discuss in general terms to those I am close to and consider friends.

If pushed to talk about it... depends on who is pushing, but I have no problem saying that I can't talk about it.

So depends on the situation, time of day, whether I've had a dose of Xanax recently....

BUT no matter how difficult, if necessary I would absolutely give every last detail to LE, medical personnel, etc.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[gitana1]

Eh? I replied to you & your post.

The lack of pronouns is throwing me. I'm not sure you are referring to yourself or someone else!

Didn't say that LE believes her story. Suggested the opposite, actually.

 

[gitana1]

SP's fingers aren't emaciated.

They are the fingers of a woman at normal weight, not plump, not bony, NORMAL.

Compare, if you will, Karen Carpenter's fingers, when she was anorexic and when she was at a more normal (though slender) weight. http://www.famousfix.com/topic/karen-carpenter/photos

The hands on the photos of SP are not the hands of an 87-pounder IME.

I can't tell the difference. It had been over a month by then though.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Like to? Wrong term, no one *likes* to talk about the most horrifying things a person can experience. In my situation, there are details I will never discuss with anyone, too much trauma/pain. Avoid? Depends on the circumstances. With friends, family, I will discuss it, although there are limits to how much I can talk about. Therapist, will talk more to, but still there's a point where I have to stop. Coworkers, avoid, only discuss in general terms to those I am close to and consider friends.

If pushed to talk about it... depends on who is pushing, but I have no problem saying that I can't talk about it.

So depends on the situation, time of day, whether I've had a dose of Xanax recently....

BUT no matter how difficult, if necessary I would absolutely give every last detail to LE, medical personnel, etc.

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Seems like in most circumstances you limit the discussion. Thanks.

 

[RickshawFan]

(Hi there!)

Wasn't that photo taken nearly 6 weeks after her return?

Beats me! But I'm not sure 6 weeks would even matter a whole lot to my point.

Those are photos plural, though, correct? I just assumed (without knowing much at all about this case) she was swathed in clothes and hoods to conceal how her body is underneath, as well as to veil her facial structure.

The story was she was emaciated. That's what caught my attention. She is not emaciated in those photos.

Only her fingers showed in those photos. And they are not emaciated. I think maybe someone didn't realize that fingers are a great place to look if you want to know if someone is underweight. You could be average weight with really bony fingers, and overly slender with really bony fingers, but emaciated with well-fleshed fingers? Nyet....

 

[RickshawFan]

So you're saying that PTSD has no effect on how a person communicates the details of their trauma? Or something else? I'm having a hard time understanding your post. Sorry.

I'm saying it depends on the person. It depends on what needs to be said at that particular moment.

You're asking about how people with PTSD talk. The answer I stated says that PTSD victims are just like any other human. They say what needs to be said in the moment. That's what communicating is all about.

Sometimes this means they talk (sign, scream, verbalize or whatever) a lot, sometimes a little. Sometimes they talk about trauma, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they have to be professional, sometimes they're telling stories to their kids, sometimes they have private moments with their life partners. Sometimes they remember, sometimes they can't remember anything. Get it?

Asking how folks with PTSD communicate is like asking how people with red hair communicate. Same way as everyone else. Get it?

 

[Pamela_Brewer]

Compare her fingers to the Halloween photo maybe?

MOO

 

[Deleted member 158085]

Beats me! But I'm not sure 6 weeks would even matter a whole lot to my point.

Those are photos plural, though, correct? I just assumed (without knowing much at all about this case) she was swathed in clothes and hoods to conceal how her body is underneath, as well as to veil her facial structure.

The story was she was emaciated. That's what caught my attention. She is not emaciated in those photos.

Only her fingers showed in those photos. And they are not emaciated. I think maybe someone didn't realize that fingers are a great place to look if you want to know if someone is underweight. You could be average weight with really bony fingers, and overly slender with really bony fingers, but emaciated with well-fleshed fingers? Nyet....

But she probably had gained most of her weight back by then.

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[Deleted member 39678]

I'm saying it depends on the person. It depends on what needs to be said at that particular moment.

You're asking about how people with PTSD talk. The answer I stated says that PTSD victims are just like any other human. They say what needs to be said in the moment. That's what communicating is all about.

Sometimes this means they talk (sign, scream, verbalize or whatever) a lot, sometimes a little. Sometimes they talk about trauma, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they have to be professional, sometimes they're telling stories to their kids, sometimes they have private moments with their life partners. Sometimes they remember, sometimes they can't remember anything. Get it?

Asking how folks with PTSD communicate is like asking how people with red hair communicate. Same way as everyone else. Get it?

Sorry but no, I don't get it.

 

[gitana1]

Why Science Tells Us Not to Rely on Eyewitness Accounts

Eyewitness testimony is fickle and, all too often, shockingly inaccurate






I've always deemed eyewitness testimony in criminal cases as being less than ideal.


https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-it/

I agree. Absolutely true. None of what you posted describes a total absence of memory, though.

From what I can gather she could not remember the abduction at all at first due to trauma blocking her memory. She subsequently remembered being kidnapped at gunpoint. Interestingly, this came after a lot of questions as to why she she couldn't remember their faces from the kidnapping. Now suddenly she recalls it was at gunpoint.

Before she spoke about it and remembered, KP had suggested she would've stopped to help a couple ladies. Based on her Pinterest I don't think there's a chance in hell she would've stopped her jog for two Mexicans. But there were a lot of questions as to how she couldn't recall their faces. Now we suddenly learn it was at gunpoint and they were always masked for three whole weeks. Which solves that question. (By the way, that means, ya'll, that two masked banditas just happened to be driving around Redding wearing masks and then jumped out of a car in broad daylight in the middle of the road, to snatch a cute, blonde soccer mom off the road, at gunpoint. )

She also could not give any useable info to a sketch artist for what, a year? because she had not recovered sufficiently. But then she was able to give information, after a year.

It also seems that she could glean no details about them or their location from things that the two women said "because they spoke Spanish most of the time"

And she has never been able to provide a "complete detailed statement due to poor recollection." So not complete, and not detailed.

What you've posted is about inaccurate detail, not no detail at all. It's about getting height, weight, whether the bank robber had a gun in his hand, the color of the car, wrong. It's not about not getting anything much at all.

That's the difference.

I disagree strongly with Bosenko that trauma can mess with the ability to recall but that after a time recovery can bring back the memory. Physical brain injury can do that. Not trauma.

Sure, there might be something specific you can't recall until something triggers it. Like a name, let's say. Until you hear a song with the name, "That's it. That was her name." Okay, I can buy that because I know that happens. But "recovered memories"? "I'm sorry, but I can't remember anything?" That theory was in vogue in the 80's and 90's. It wreaked a lot of havoc on people and it has been fairly well debunked by actual studies.

Bosenko said Sherri Papini was unable to recall any details about her abduction when first questioned soon after being found. He said victims of traumatic experiences sometimes suffer from memory loss regarding the events.
http://kron4.com/2016/11/30/redding-mom-sherri-papini-kidnapped-burned-branded/


Bosenko said Sherri Papini was unable to recall any details about her abduction when first questioned soon after being found. He said victims of traumatic experiences sometimes suffer from memory loss regarding the events.


"The mind can block out some of that traumatic event," he said.
http://abc7.com/news/missing-mother-was-branded-with-message-sheriff-says/1632745/


The release went on to say, “Keith and Sherri Papini have remained in contact with the Sheriff’s Office and the FBI. Sherri continues to provide details as she can recall them, but has not been able to provide a complete detailed statement due to her poor recollection.”
http://www.dailydemocrat.com/article/NI/20171025/NEWS/171029914


Papini told police she was abducted at gunpoint and held captive by two armed Hispanic females — one in her 20s or 30s and the other between 40 and 50 — who spoke Spanish the majority of the time. She also stated that the suspects “made efforts to conceal their identities with face coverings.”


“It has taken time for Sherri to recover to a point to be able to provide accurate details to the sketch artist,” a sheriff’s office press release obtained by PEOPLE states.
http://people.com/crime/sherri-papini-officer-says-papini-abduction-account-believable/

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I agree. Absolutely true. None of what you posted describes a total absence of memory, though.

From what I can gather she could not remember the abduction at all at first due to trauma blocking her memory. She also could not give any useable info to a sketch artist for what, a year? because she had not recovered sufficiently. But then she was able to give information, after a year.

She subsequently remembered being kidnapped at gunpoint. Interestingly, this came after a lot of questions as to why she she couldn't remember their faces from the kidnapping. Now suddenly she recalls it was at gunpoint.

Before she spoke about it and remembered, KP had suggested she would've stopped to help a couple ladies. Based on her Pinterest I don't think there's a chance in hell she would've stopped her jog for two Mexicans. But there were a lot of questions as to how she couldn't recall their faces. Now we suddenly learn it was at gunpoint and they were always masked for three whole weeks. Which solves that question. (By the way, that means, ya'll, that two masked banditas just happened to be driving around Redding wearing masks and then jumped out of a car in broad daylight in the middle of the road, to snatch a cute, blonde soccer mom off the road, at gunpoint. )

It also seems that she could glean no details about them or their location from things that the two women said "because they spoke Spanish most of the time"

And she has never been able to provide a "complete detailed statement due to poor recollection." So not complete, and not detailed.

What you've posted is about inaccurate detail, not no detail at all. It's about getting height, weight, whether the bank robber had a gun in his hand, the color of the car, wrong. It's not about not getting anything much at all.

That's the difference.

I disagree strongly with Bosenko that trauma can mess with the ability to recall but that after a time recovery can bring back the memory. Physical brain injury can do that. Not trauma.

Sure, there might be something specific you can't recall until something triggers it. Like a name, let's say. Until you hear a song with the name, "That's it. That was her name." Okay, I can buy that because I know that happens. But "recovered memories"? "I'm sorry, but I can't remember anything?" That theory was in vogue in the 80's and 90's. It wreaked a lot of havoc on people and it has been fairly well debunked by actual studies.

I posted the link to the unreliability of eyewitness accounts not to show a direct correlation to this case but to express some of my feelings about how Sherri may have said (or not said) certain things that don't seem likely to some.

The more I look at this case the more uncertainties I see. Is this because Sherri is lying about much of this case or it it from other factors. I'm just not sure.

The last thing I'm trying to do is to change anyone's mind about the trustfulness of Sherri Papini. To each his own.