Cadaver dog hit on scent in DBs bedroom

[cityslick]

It would depend on what kind of container (the material of the container matters a lot)- and to a certain extent- the physical source of the decomp scent itself. Many materials leach HR scent particles into a container itself, where they can be detected by an HRD dog. Think of it like nuking spaghetti in a tupperware container. The spaghetti sauce will stain the tupperware container- and retain the scent to a dog trained in specific scent discrimination. The scent particles remain- despite washing- because they have been 'stained' into the container.
Also, many scents leach through methods of containment onto the substrate they are placed on, which means they remain there after the container is removed.
An HRD dog should alert to all of these types of scenarios, if there is HR scent present. HTH.

Thanks. Copying this over from Ron Rugen's blog (which he posted in another thread) but is relevant here. I was wondering your opinion on it:

I told him it is hard to get beyond a cadaver dog "hit". The information I read and the people I talk to tell me it is indisputable. Is that true?

He said, "let's find out". He called a colleague who owns a cadaver dog. Reporting back to me, he told me this owner says we need more information about the "hit". Not to be graphic, but unless a dead body was on the floor at that spot and someone put it in a plastic bag right there, there should be a trail from that location resulting in subsequent hits. Also, was the carpet lifted up and the dog allowed to sniff the hardwood floor underneath, in case vomit and other things result in "hits".

 

[Oriah]

Thanks. Copying this over from Ron Rugen's blog (which he posted in another thread) but is relevant here. I was wondering your opinion on it:

I told him it is hard to get beyond a cadaver dog "hit". The information I read and the people I talk to tell me it is indisputable. Is that true?

He said, "let's find out". He called a colleague who owns a cadaver dog. Reporting back to me, he told me this owner says we need more information about the "hit". Not to be graphic, but unless a dead body was on the floor at that spot and someone put it in a plastic bag right there, there should be a trail from that location resulting in subsequent hits. Also, was the carpet lifted up and the dog allowed to sniff the hardwood floor underneath, in case vomit and other things result in "hits".

I'll have to go read his blog, because I'm not sure what his question to the handler exactly was (?) but basically, it is very common practice to 'isolate' HRD alerts. So it would be the norm to have a dog alert to a location; and if that location was a layered substrate, to remove in layers in order to isolate the alert- to get closest to the most dense location of scent, and/or- the most faint. But in terms of isolating to 'rule out' scents other than those pertaining to human remains (such as vomit).... that's scent isolation training- not working, imvho.

A working HRD dog should not be alerting to HR scent on one material or container or substrate or whatever, and then alerting to a non-HR scent underneath it. The dog should show no indication of an alert once the source of the HR scent is removed- be is gas, solid, liquid, etc- no matter what other scent source remains.

Also- somewhat confused about the 'trail' it appears he's referring to. :waitasec:
There are multiple ways that human remains could be detected by an HRD dog that would not result in further alerts, or any kind of HR 'trail.'
HTH.

I'll go read the blog, to make sure I understand the context...

 

[cityslick]

I'll have to go read his blog, because I'm not sure what his question to the handler exactly was (?) but basically, it is very common practice to 'isolate' HRD alerts. So it would be the norm to have a dog alert to a location; and if that location was a layered substrate, to remove in layers in order to isolate the alert- to get closest to the most dense location of scent, and/or- the most faint. But in terms of isolating to 'rule out' scents other than those pertaining to human remains (such as vomit).... that's scent isolation training- not working, imvho.

A working HRD dog should not be alerting to HR scent on one material or container or substrate or whatever, and then alerting to a non-HR scent underneath it. The dog should show no indication of an alert once the source of the HR scent is removed- be is gas, solid, liquid, etc- no matter what other scent source remains.

Also- somewhat confused about the 'trail' it appears he's referring to. :waitasec:
There are multiple ways that human remains could be detected by an HRD dog that would not result in further alerts, or any kind of HR 'trail.'
HTH.

I'll go read the blog, to make sure I understand the context...

Thanks, I believe the context was the simple question that the hit was 'indisputable' (I'm assuming meaning, indisputable that a dead body definitely was in there) but I think I've even seen you post that it's not a guarantee.

 

[Oriah]

Thanks, I believe the context was the simple question that the hit was 'indisputable' (I'm assuming meaning, indisputable that a dead body definitely was in there) but I think I've even seen you post that it's not a guarantee.

There's no such thing as an 'indisputable' HRD dog alert-unless remains are located at the site- just as there's no such thing as any other sort of 'indisputable' evidence. Everything is up for debate.

A handler is left with the burden of proof- not much different than any other investigative tool used. A tool is really only as good as the person using it- which in the K9 world, means being able to provide evidence of training, stability, consistancy of alerts, if other evidence found corroborates with, etc.
It's an investigative tool that (imo) a wise handler knows is one part of a puzzle- and that when properly utilized, is very effective.
But still, only parts of a whole.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Bump.

 

[Whisperer]

I would think a cadaver dog trained in scent would pick up if a deceased body were there. However for the dog to pick up a dead body scent forever would be unlikely. If that were true, they'd be hitting all over town.

JI has lived there at least 10 years. If somebody died in that 50 yr. old house prior to him taking it over, I doubt the dog would hit. I do not know much about these dogs but I recall seeing a show where the can hit on bodies from many years ago, but it always involved cadaver bones.

It appears they took evidence out of the house in the very beginning besides what they took out in the later search. It also appears one cadaver dog hit in the beginning. It is very likely they brought more dogs with them the second time.

It also appears there is no sign of forced entry. So what really did happen to the screen JI/DB brought to LE's attention? Now that they know no one came through that window, that opens up the opportunity that DB left the door unlocked. Being drunk is convenient for this alibi. She just doesn't recall locking them. She recalls asking the boys to sleep with her but she doesn't recall checking on Lisa and she doesn't recall locking the door.

There is no way to solve the case w/o a confession or a body....and it is late for the body to show anything. If lucky she was wrapped in something on places in a container of sorts.

So not only do we have a stranger abduction but we have a strange family who leaves doors unlocked with small children in the house. I am not falling in line with the story that this was the first time she left them unlocked...for that would pile on another coincidence for the stranger intruder story.

 

[Pierce'sMommy]

Couldn't agree more! I personally do believe the hit was accurate. Maybe LE has yet to share EXACTLY where that hit was (which we don't know if they did or didn't share for sure) but I still feel that, knowing the general area of the hit, innocent parents would try to figure out an explanation. Like I said, it would kill me not to know. BTW I will try to post in the correct thread next time. I just got all sorts of excited with my big time#6post.

 

[hambirg]

I am very curious about the tape dispenser LE took. Can cadaver scent be transferred by handling? Say if somebody was handling a body and then touching the tape dispenser, would the scent then be on the tape dispenser? Would a dog hit on that? TIA

 

[norest4thewicked]

I am very curious about the tape dispenser LE took. Can cadaver scent be transferred by handling? Say if somebody was handling a body and then touching the tape dispenser, would the scent then be on the tape dispenser? Would a dog hit on that? TIA

I'd like to know this too as this was my theory that I posted a couple of days ago.

I think that Lisa was taken from the bathtub where she had passed, and laid on the floor next to the bed. I think that she was wrapped layer upon layer between towels/blankets and plastic bags. I believe that everything to do this job was brought to the spot where Lisa lay on the floor. Then, finally, I believe that this whole "package" was re-wrapped and put into a container of some sort, more "wrapping" added and then finally put into a larger container and disposed of in the river. I think that the tape dispenser is going to play a big part in this case.

 

[iamnotagolem]

I'd like to know this too as this was my theory that I posted a couple of days ago.

I think that Lisa was taken from the bathtub where she had passed, and laid on the floor next to the bed. I think that she was wrapped layer upon layer between towels/blankets and plastic bags. I believe that everything to do this job was brought to the spot where Lisa lay on the floor. Then, finally, I believe that this whole "package" was re-wrapped and put into a container of some sort, more "wrapping" added and then finally put into a larger container and disposed of in the river. I think that the tape dispenser is going to play a big part in this case.

I'm not disputing this theory, it seems a pretty plausible one.

But it makes me just so sad. How do you just accept that your child is dead?

To the HRD experts here, do you know which specific dogs were used and got the hit in this case? Do you personally believe the hit was "good"?

 

[redheadedgal]

i absolutely believe the accuracy of the "hit" too whether it was "verified" by another dog or not... missing child + cadaver dog hit = !!!

just curious--

have there been any missing baby/toddler cases where the parent(s) claimed "abduction" and there was a cadaver dog hit in the home, vehicle etc, but ultimately the child was found alive ??

 

[cityslick]

i absolutely believe the accuracy of the "hit" too whether it was "verified" by another dog or not... missing child + cadaver dog hit = !!!

just curious--

have there been any missing baby/toddler cases where the parent(s) claimed "abduction" and there was a cadaver dog hit in the home, vehicle etc, but ultimately the child was found alive ??

From this site: http://www.k9fleck.org/sar/cadaver_dog.html

An alert from a cadaver dog is only reasonable suspicion. The dog alert must be corroborated by other evidence.

The key to this statement is the 'other evidence' part, and nobody here knows if there was other evidence to corroborate the dog hit and what that was.

 

[Jacie Estes]

From this site: http://www.k9fleck.org/sar/cadaver_dog.html

An alert from a cadaver dog is only reasonable suspicion. The dog alert must be corroborated by other evidence.

The key to this statement is the 'other evidence' part, and nobody here knows if there was other evidence to corroborate the dog hit and what that was.

Where are the other 'hits' in the house? IF Lisa passed in her crib or in bath water then there would be bio evidence that would trigger a hit. There is one hit in the house; a 'one hit' wonder? When someone passes there are bodily fluids, loosening of bowels and bladder etc. Where is the evidence of these other areas of bio material? If she were in the bath then the water would have to be disposed of; there would be evidence in a drain.

 

[hambirg]

Where are the other 'hits' in the house? IF Lisa passed in her crib or in bath water then there would be bio evidence that would trigger a hit. There is one hit in the house; a 'one hit' wonder? When someone passes there are bodily fluids, loosening of bowels and bladder etc. Where is the evidence of these other areas of bio material? If she were in the bath then the water would have to be disposed of; there would be evidence in a drain.

We only know about the one hit because it was used on the search warrant affidavit. I don't think LE has ever told us if there were more hits or not. . .or anything about what was found in the house, other than what was in the affidavit.

 

[4Jacy]

I'd like to know this too as this was my theory that I posted a couple of days ago.

I think that Lisa was taken from the bathtub where she had passed, and laid on the floor next to the bed. I think that she was wrapped layer upon layer between towels/blankets and plastic bags. I believe that everything to do this job was brought to the spot where Lisa lay on the floor. Then, finally, I believe that this whole "package" was re-wrapped and put into a container of some sort, more "wrapping" added and then finally put into a larger container and disposed of in the river. I think that the tape dispenser is going to play a big part in this case.

Great post!

For some reason, I don't believe she drown in the bathtub. I think she was over medicated or DB rolled on her in the middle of the night. I think whatever happened was an accident, and that DB truly loved her daughter.

Her mistake was in not calling 911 immediately! Instead she disposed of Baby Lisa. I think she had help, either by her brother or maybe Jeremy.

I do agree about the wrapping and re-wrapping. IIRC the boys said they heard clicking sounds, and this would happen with a tape dispenser, especially if it was the industrial type of dispenser. You are right on about the tape dispenser will play great big part in this.

 

[cityslick]

Great post!

For some reason, I don't believe she drown in the bathtub. I think she was over medicated or DB rolled on her in the middle of the night. I think whatever happened was an accident, and that DB truly loved her daughter.

Her mistake was in not calling 911 immediately! Instead she disposed of Baby Lisa. I think she had help, either by her brother or maybe Jeremy.

I do agree about the wrapping and re-wrapping. IIRC the boys said they heard clicking sounds, and this would happen with a tape dispenser, especially if it was the industrial type of dispenser. You are right on about the tape dispenser will play great big part in this.

My question would be how long did she lay on her before realizing she killed her? An hour, two? In any event, the dogs should of hit all over that bed if that was the case.

Plus, wasn't one of the kids in bed with her? If that wasn't true, I think it would of came out in the kid interviews.

 

[4Jacy]

My question would be how long did she lay on her before realizing she killed her? An hour, two? In any event, the dogs should of hit all over that bed if that was the case.

Plus, wasn't one of the kids in bed with her? If that wasn't true, I think it would of came out in the kid interviews.

Got me there cityslick. Okay, let's skip that theory. I'll stay with the over medication idea, JMO, of course. :twocents:

 

[Minette]

The thing that bothers me about the cadaver dog hit is that (as far as has been publicly reported) the only hit was in the parents' bedroom, on the floor by the bed. If Lisa had been drowned in the tub, or overdosed on cold medicine in her crib, or rolled over on and crushed in the parents' bed, then why wouldn't there have been a hit in one of those places as well? Like others here, I would very much like to know the significance of the tape dispenser being taken, but again, we don't know if there was a hit on that or any other type of forensic evidence associated with that or any of the other items taken under the warrant.

 

[iamnotagolem]

Since a lot of people are leaning towards accidental death, if Lisa died on the bedroom floor, my first guess would be that something happened while DB & SB were outside drinking. The other 3 kids accidentally killed Lisa in the bedroom; therefore, the hit on the floor, SB & DB could have immediately went into cover up mode.

 

[Minette]

Since a lot of people are leaning towards accidental death, if Lisa died on the bedroom floor, my first guess would be that something happened while DB & SB were outside drinking. The other 3 kids accidentally killed Lisa in the bedroom; therefore, the hit on the floor, SB & DB could have immediately went into cover up mode.

That is a theory I've certainly considered. It would explain a lot of things. The thing that bothers me about that theory is that the children, all of whom are very young, wouldn't have been in serious trouble. On the other hand, if DB & SB were drinking and not supervising, they might have been feeling very guilty themselves.

The other scenario I can see that would explain a cadaver dog hit on the floor and no where else is that Lisa was on the bed and rolled off. I don't really like thinking about scenarios in which little Lisa is dead, but I think the various accidental death theories make more sense if she is no longer with us than some kind of deliberate act, or even DB 'snapping' and harming Lisa.