Cadaver dog hit on scent in DBs bedroom

[iamnotagolem]

I apologize to everyone who does not have curtains in their house. I did not realize that many people did this, I'm assuming this must have something to do with being raised in different areas. I just can't remember being in anyone's house w/o curtains except bachelors.

My apologies.

 

[Oriah]

I have a question about the cadaver dog hit. Looking at the pictures of the bedroom above made me think about it. If a cadaver dog hits on a carpeted surface, what is the next step in procedure? Do they then test that area somehow? Take swabs? Why didn't they cut out the piece of carpet in that spot for further testing? Remember how In CA's trial the pieces of carpet were sealed up in those cans, various testing was done on them? Why not in this case? Does anyone know?

Imo, it is typical to try and isolate the source of the scent the dog was alerting on. So removing parts of a substrate (whatever that substrate might be) to get to the origination of the source is common.
I don't know about the alert in Lisa's case, but it would not surprise me if the carpet had been pulled back (not cut) to isolate a scent and alert under the carpeting, and if the scent trail ended there.

Jmvho, of course. HTH.

 

[nursebeeme]

PLEASE THANK THIS POST BEFORE POSTING

The Lisa Irwin forum appears to be made up of cliques. You know, the type you have in high school before you begin to understand that there are a lot of interesting people and places in the world and your fear of such limits the personal boundaries you set for yourself. The disrespect between the two cliques is tiresome.


That being said, we need another review of the rules (which is really just a curtesy as everyone should know them or how to find and read them by now): This is NOT hard. Post YOUR thoughts, theories and interpretations (easy enough right?). Read the thoughts of others (not hard). Respond to those that may be of a like mind (okay, that should work). If you disagree with another poster and cannot post nicely, MOVE PAST THEIR POST (how hard is that?) If another poster gets under your skin, PUT THEM ON IGNORE (only takes about a minute). If you must refute their post - then use a link and state the fact as YOU see it (you all know this case, it can't be that hard). THEN DROP IT! That's it. See, not hard. If a post offends you, ALERT it, DO NOT RESPOND TO IT, and MOVE ON. It is okay to disagree, but it is NOT OKAY to attack or make fun of others. AND THE SNARK...well, that needs to just STOP.



It is our hope this gets the message across. There are many good posters here and no matter what opinion we may hold on who we feel is responsible we all are here for Lisa Irwin and want her to come home safely and soon.

Thanks so much,

The Lisa Irwin forum moderators

 

[melissasmom]

Imo, it is typical to try and isolate the source of the scent the dog was alerting on. So removing parts of a substrate (whatever that substrate might be) to get to the origination of the source is common.
I don't know about the alert in Lisa's case, but it would not surprise me if the carpet had been pulled back (not cut) to isolate a scent and alert under the carpeting, and if the scent trail ended there.

Jmvho, of course. HTH.

Well, to take that further, if they HAD pulled back the carpet, and there was not scent trail UNDER the carpet, then what would procedure be? They wouldn't take the carpet? Would they at least swab the area to test it? Or do they just write down in their records "dog hit here" and take a picture? I guess I am questioning-when a dog gets a hit, what is the next step? As far as processing. TIA

 

[In da Middle]

I've heard that over and over....my question is, why would LE throw those particular things all over the floor? Did they go into Lisa's bedroom and bring the diapers into DB's bedroom? Did they take an arbitrary clothes hanger and toss it onto the floor? All that's there to throw things out of is a small night table - did ALL that come from the night table?

I find it very hinky that these pictures are so different - all taken on the same day, October 24, 2011. Why was everything rearranged?

Cynthia Short video stills of the bedroom:
.

.
Peter's video stills

Short Kitchen

Peter Kitchen

Yes, they will and do. I have seen what a house looked before and after LE has searched a house (not this one). It was a very neat house before they got there and after it was utter total chaos. They had pulled everything out of drawers, turned the drawers upside down looking for things maybe taped under them. Every garmet in the closets were off the hangers and thrown in a pile. All of the bedding was tossed in every room. Things in the kitchen were all taken out of the cabinets. Stuff in the bathrooms in cabinets and drawers were strewn about. The locked gun cabinet was forced open and the guns were tossed to the side. Etc ...... BTW They tossed this particular house on bad informant info. Absolutely nothing was found and the owner was responsible for cleaning up the mess.

 

[norest4thewicked]

I have a question about the cadaver dog hit. Looking at the pictures of the bedroom above made me think about it. If a cadaver dog hits on a carpeted surface, what is the next step in procedure? Do they then test that area somehow? Take swabs? Why didn't they cut out the piece of carpet in that spot for further testing? Remember how In CA's trial the pieces of carpet were sealed up in those cans, various testing was done on them? Why not in this case? Does anyone know?

Perhaps the cadaver dog hit on Lisa's clothing that was laying on the floor. We know they took clothing. Or, from the looks of that room, it could have hit on anything just laying there. Remember how much they took out of the house in bags? If something was laying on the floor like a shirt or a belt, and the dog hit on it, I could imagine them not being specific about the item the dog hit on, since that item is now evidence.

 

[In da Middle]

Perhaps the cadaver dog hit on Lisa's clothing that was laying on the floor. We know they took clothing. Or, from the looks of that room, it could have hit on anything just laying there. Remember how much they took out of the house in bags? If something was laying on the floor like a shirt or a belt, and the dog hit on it, I could imagine them not being specific about the item the dog hit on, since that item is now evidence.

They took bags of stuff out, but they only kept 7 items. If the dog hit on something, it would have been on any of those 7 items only. I don't think LE would take the chance of taking something and not listing it on the inventory sheet and take the chance of it being tossed by a judge. Federal law dictates that all evidence seized must be inventoried.

 

[melissasmom]

Perhaps the cadaver dog hit on Lisa's clothing that was laying on the floor. We know they took clothing. Or, from the looks of that room, it could have hit on anything just laying there. Remember how much they took out of the house in bags? If something was laying on the floor like a shirt or a belt, and the dog hit on it, I could imagine them not being specific about the item the dog hit on, since that item is now evidence.

I see what you are saying, but it just seems like the warrrant would have said "an item(s)" located in the house, or bedroom. I believe it said "an area of the floor near the bed" or something to that effect. Seems strange they would have said "floor" if it was an item ON the floor. I guess it is possible though.

 

[Dewey2Me1MoThyme]

I see what you are saying, but it just seems like the warrrant would have said "an item(s)" located in the house, or bedroom. I believe it said "an area of the floor near the bed" or something to that effect. Seems strange they would have said "floor" if it was an item ON the floor. I guess it is possible though.

The wording on the SW request sounded like a fishing expedition to me, which is one reason I have to wonder if there ever was a hit at all. Luminol, dog searches, hi-tech x-ray machines and a score of investigators and only 7 items were taken, and Lisa is still considered missing / endangerered speaks alot as to what happened in that home, and little or nothing points to a death. If the dog hit on the bed, why would they not say so and confiscate the mattress or the entire bed, if it hit on the floor, why not say so and take the flooring material?

 

[KsStormy]

The wording on the SW request sounded like a fishing expedition to me, which is one reason I have to wonder if there ever was a hit at all. Luminol, dog searches, hi-tech x-ray machines and a score of investigators and only 7 items were taken, and Lisa is still considered missing / endangerered speaks alot as to what happened in that home, and little or nothing points to a death. If the dog hit on the bed, why would they not say so and confiscate the mattress or the entire bed, if it hit on the floor, why not say so and take the flooring material?

How do you know that the items taken were not what the dog(s) hit on? No telling where they were.

 

[liltexans]

That's basically how I remember it, too. I know that WE knew about them while the house was still under police control and the parents didn't have access to it then. That is why I was mentioning the metal detectors that they were using on day one or two. Not looking for a baby with those.

I'm assuming, like most things in this case, LE never confirmed or explained what they were using the metal detectors for, right? We all just assumed they were looking for the phones.

I'm bringing this up again because I'm wondering if maybe they were trying to detect a buried metal barrel. I was watching the "Disappeared" episode about Billy Smolinski and LE in that case used metal detectors on some properties to try to detect if there was a metal barrel containing Billy's body buried on the property.

 

[Dewey2Me1MoThyme]

How do you know that the items taken were not what the dog(s) hit on? No telling where they were.

Did I say I knew?

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I was thinking about the cadaver dog hit and wondered if it were possible for the dog to detect a scent other than from an actual dead body that would cause it to alert.

I found this stuff.

Sigma Pseudo Corpse Scent formulations provide a safe, easy to handle Source for training specialty scent dogs. The formulations allow a search dog handier to observe the dog's reactions during its initial introduction to a deceased victim under controlled circumstances, and to train specifically for cadaver search, it desired.

If someone got a hold of this training scent and used it in Lisa's house would it fool the dog? I don't see why not. It would certainly point suspicions towards Lisa's parents and away from an intruder kidnapping her.
JMO.

http://leerburg.com/cadaver.htm?set=1

http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/FLUKA/PSCI?lang=en&region=US

 

[Whisperer]

It was stated that the dog hit on scent not on DNA. In the Anthony case, there was seepage from the body in the car, thus the reason for removing carpet. To our kge, we have not heard of any seepage from a dead body in the bdrm. After testing with light sources, etc, there would be no reason to remove the carpet or a piece of the floor.

It is my understanding the dogs give more false negatives than positives. It is very likely there was a dead body where that dog hit.

 

[redheadedgal]

It is my understanding the dogs give more false negatives than positives. It is very likely there was a dead body where that dog hit.

yes-- both the FBI and the handler of the dog used that day in the house assert the reliabilty and accuracy of FBI-trained dogs.

and, we know for a fact that at least one of martin grime's dogs (he was called in for the lister search) has never had a false positive hit.

i posted an article about this in the pat brown thread last week...

 

[Deleted member 39678]

yes-- both the FBI and the handler of the dog used that day in the house assert the reliabilty and accuracy of FBI-trained dogs.

and, we know for a fact that at least one of martin grime's dogs (he was called in for the lister search) has never had a false positive hit.

i posted an article about this in the pat brown thread last week...

Are you saying that the FBI dog that made the hit in Lisa's house is Martin Grimes dog? Here are the link's that you posted on other threads and I don't see anything about Martin Grime or his dog's being used in the Lisa Irwin case. Even if it was Grime's dog, could it hit on the training scent that I posted about? If a HRD dog alerts but no body is found, how would you know if it was a false positive or an accurate alert? JMO.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120824/METRO01/208240420#ixzz24a3uvyi9

http://eddieandkeela.blogspot.com/2011/10/fbi-cadaver-dog-lisa-irwin.html

 

[sarx]

Pseudo scent is not a real popular method of training. Any large agency that has the proper certifications and allowances is going to use real scent for exactly this reason. It tends to be smaller groups and back yard trainers that go with pseudo, pig, etc. cuz they don't have what it takes to get the real stuff.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Pseudo scent is not a real popular method of training. Any large agency that has the proper certifications and allowances is going to use real scent for exactly this reason. It tends to be smaller groups and back yard trainers that go with pseudo, pig, etc. cuz they don't have what it takes to get the real stuff.

So what does this mean. If the dog wasn't trained with pseudo scent they will ignore it? Is "real" scent a controlled substance that is unavailable to the public?

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Well, I went looking for answers to my questions. It looks like dogs trained only on "the real stuff" won't alert on pseudo scent.

2. Dogs that have been trained on the "real stuff" won't alert on Pseudoscents. That's true because real decomposition is a much wider spectrum of scent. However, introducing these dogs to Pseudoscents and then doing a search problem solves this problem.

As for getting "the real stuff" it may depend on where you are and what's considered "real". Some states have laws against possessing human remains and some don't.

This guy got what he needed for training from various sources.

Reitz, rubbing his knees as he drove, explained that in truth, the body tissue behind us was from people who donated bits and pieces of themselves to the cause. For instance, the knees Reitz was rubbing were not his original ones. The hospital let him keep the worn-out editions after replacing them with brand-new versions.

"They thought it was a little strange at the hospital, but the doctor knows me," he chuckled.

Another human part in the cooler was an old supporter's hip joint.

Looks like they use blood for training also.

And vials of blood provided soft tissue samples. The blood was let during a nurse friend's visit a few weeks earlier.

And he had this to say about Missouri.

He said it's a lot easier to get body parts in other places. In Missouri, he said, you can even order body tissue for the purpose of cadaver dog training.

I was wondering if someone could take the off gassing from decomposing blood and use that to leave a decomp scent that a dog would alert on?


http://www.cadaverdog.com/articles/pseudoscents.htm

http://www.dogster.com/lifestyle/cadaver-dogs-training-monterey

 

[KsStormy]

Pseudo scent is not a real popular method of training. Any large agency that has the proper certifications and allowances is going to use real scent for exactly this reason. It tends to be smaller groups and back yard trainers that go with pseudo, pig, etc. cuz they don't have what it takes to get the real stuff.

So, would you say that the FBI dogs that were used for Lisa's case were trained with the "real thing"? I believe I read that Mr Grimes' dogs were...?