Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #13

[OutOfTheDarkness]

If it's DG's hard drive, it could comprise the whole premeditation aspect of the 1st degree charges.

I think that would be a hard drive containing all the evidence, created by LE for the sake of organization and ease for Crown and Defence.

 

[otto]

Good point, that's a pretty heavy statement to make to the media and to send that message to family members. I honestly think they meant it…until something forensic told them otherwise.

The article does not say that police are confident that they'll find the family members alive. I don't believe that was ever stated.

""We're very confident that we're going to find these family members, and we're hoping that we're going to find them alive,"

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/calgar...sing-boy-grandparents-1.1897614#ixzz3APrQ96dm

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Their timeline was 30 days. They were to provide disclosure by yesterday I believe, and even got that held over until today. That was what was established by law.
They are now delayed.

I don't think there was a court ordered 30 day deadline... It was more an estimation give or take.

 

[otto]

O'Brien Trust Fund CIBC and/or ‘Super Heroes Are Real’ Funds both are at CIBC as per attached msm article.
http://www.mountainfm.ca/2014/08/13/super-heroes-are-real/ with audio interview of long time friends from Canmore Cherri and Ken Hodgins.
BBM from article ~ Cherri also told me that her and Kathy had made a promise that if something bad ever happened to one of them, the other would do whatever they could to look after that person’s family. This is why they’re driven to get as many donations as possible for the ‘Super Heroes Are Real’ fund to benefit the O’Brien family. Bow Valley Basics has contributed some donation boxes that will be popping up around town this week

Has she specified how the funds will be used?

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

I_think_ the hard drive is the brain and memory of a given computer. Doubtful that LE/Prosecution would present it's OWN hard drive as evidence.
Sorry for sounding clueless, but I didn't grow up with this

Hard drive, flash drive whatever... they mean electronic copies of documents photos etc...

 

[otto]

Actually, MSM has repeatedly chosen words and phrases that cast a completely erroneous light on this subject. I will make reference to one example that I banged on about FOREVER.... They said a violent struggle had occurred in the Parkhill residence WHEREAS LE specifically said a violent incident. The use if the word struggle put a very different spin on the scenario, implying someone had fought back. So by way of this example we can see that just one single little old word, chosen by a reporter, can put a different slant on things.

Violent struggle, and violent incident, would, in some respects, both apply. In the context of these murder, the police term of "violent incident" means homicide or attempted murder.

"Criminal Code incidents are sub-divided into four major groupings: (i) violent incidents, (ii) property incidents, (iii) other Criminal Code incidents (except traffic), and (iv) Criminal Code traffic incidents.

Violent incidents include offences that deal with the application, or threat of application, of force to a person. These include homicide, attempted murder, various forms of sexual and non sexual assault, robbery, and abduction. Traffic incidents that result in death or injury are included under Criminal Code traffic incidents."

http://www23.statcan.gc.ca/imdb-bmdi/document/3302_D2_T9_V1-eng.pdf
http://www.eco.gov.yk.ca/fr/pdf/crimestats_95-03-l.pdf

Given that there was an attempted murder, or a homicide, one would hope that there was also a struggle where at least one of the three victims was able to struggle with the accused.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Actually, MSM has repeatedly chosen words and phrases that cast a completely erroneous light on this subject. I will make reference to one example that I banged on about FOREVER.... They said a violent struggle had occurred in the Parkhill residence WHEREAS LE specifically said a violent incident. The use if the word struggle put a very different spin on the scenario, implying someone had fought back. So by way of this example we can see that just one single little old word, chosen by a reporter, can put a different slant on things.

This is true. I appreciate you sharing the wisdom of your experience. I'm sure it will be cleared up soon if it is a miscommunication. Other media or LE will no doubt quickly jump on that to dispel any idea that this reporter's statement is accurate if it isn't.

Yes...one lil ole word...."no trace of any of" should be removed from the below sentence...which gives it an entirely different context for sure!

"Authorities have also scoured the property of Garland’s parents northeast of Airdrie and turned up no trace of any of the victims."

Read more: http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/accused-in...#ixzz3AOceRlsH

 

[otto]

I think that would be a hard drive containing all the evidence, created by LE for the sake of organization and ease for Crown and Defence.

Hard drives come in so many sizes. My understanding is that is the crown is providing an electronic copy of all disclosure documents that are now in their possession.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Has she specified how the funds will be used?

She has indicated that "no one is working..." (in the O'Brien family), so IMO the funds would be used for the family's sustenance, funeral service costs, etc.

 

[otto]

This is true. I appreciate you sharing the wisdom of your experience. I'm sure it will be cleared up soon if it is a miscommunication. Other media or LE will no doubt quickly jump on that to dispel any idea that this reporter's statement is accurate if it isn't.

Yes...one lil ole word...."no trace of any of" should be removed from the below sentence...which gives it an entirely different context for sure!

"Authorities have also scoured the property of Garland’s parents northeast of Airdrie and turned up no trace of any of the victims."

Read more: http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/accused-in...#ixzz3AOceRlsH

At least they didn't say that they found no evidence ... they simply did not find the victims at the Airdrie property.

 

[otto]

She has indicated that "no one is working..." (in the O'Brien family), so IMO the funds would be used for the family's sustenance, funeral service costs, etc.

Alvin has six adult children, four from a previous marriage that ended in the late 80s or 1990. I wonder when they plan to return to work, if at all. I hope that their friends are able to bring them food and look after their day to day activities so that they don't fall into depression.

Funeral (memorial) costs for murder victims are paid by the government. Loss of work funds are also available through the government for families of murder victims. Links for this were posted when the funds were first set up.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

At least they didn't say that they found no evidence ... they simply did not find the victims at the Airdrie property.

"No trace" is an incredibly poor choice of words, especially in this day and age of forensics and DNA. NewsTalk and others have commented on the sorry state of journalism these days... this was just one more example.

 

[Cherchri]

Violent struggle, and violent incident, would, in some respects, both apply. In the context of these murder, the police term of "violent incident" means homicide or attempted murder.

"Criminal Code incidents are sub-divided into four major groupings: (i) violent incidents, (ii) property incidents, (iii) other Criminal Code incidents (except traffic), and (iv) Criminal Code traffic incidents.

Violent incidents include offences that deal with the application, or threat of application, of force to a person. These include homicide, attempted murder, various forms of sexual and non sexual assault, robbery, and abduction. Traffic incidents that result in death or injury are included under Criminal Code traffic incidents."

http://www23.statcan.gc.ca/imdb-bmdi/document/3302_D2_T9_V1-eng.pdf
http://www.eco.gov.yk.ca/fr/pdf/crimestats_95-03-l.pdf

Given that there was an attempted murder, or a homicide, one would hope that there was also a struggle where at least one of the three victims was able to struggle with the accused.

The point is they misquoted LE. Struggle and incident are poles apart and do not mean the same thing. LE choose their words very carefully for obvious reasons.

 

[otto]

"No trace" is an incredibly poor choice of words, especially in this day and age of forensics and DNA. NewsTalk and others have commented on the sorry state of journalism these days... this was just one more example.

What exactly was said, and what was reported in the news? If we put the two sentences side by side, what was changed, and how does it change the meaning?

My understanding of what I heard is that the bodies have not been found, or there is no trace of bodies, at the acreage. There could be evidence of their burned clothing, but there is no trace at the acreage. Is that an incorrect understanding?

 

[Deleted member 117120]

She has indicated that "no one is working..." (in the O'Brien family), so IMO the funds would be used for the family's sustenance, funeral service costs, etc.

http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/accused-in-liknes-and-o-brien-murders-in-court-1.1959334
I read the msm article to mean no one is working as in the O family and extended L family
"I think it's essential because the Liknes' had six children and twelve grandchildren and the family is in pieces," Hodgins says. "Nobody is working, nobody can get back to normalcy, whatever normalcy is at this point. It's going to take a long time for us to be able to recover. This is a young family who didn't deserve this, but does deserve our love and support."

 

[otto]

The point is they misquoted LE. Struggle and incident are poles apart and do not mean the same thing. LE choose their words very carefully for obvious reasons.

Incident implies that something happened (of a violent nature), struggle implies the same except that the victim struggled. It opens the question of whether they were asleep and it was an incident, or whether they were awake and there was a struggle. If the living room sofas and dining suite are no longer for sale, it could mean that these rooms were the crime seen. Would that mean that the victims were awake? Perhaps they were sitting at the dining room table counting the three day sale proceeds when Garland walked on in; the sign was still up. The front door may not have been locked. Perhaps he entered through the side door. There's also a back yard patio door that leads up the short staircase to the kitchen. If the couple were sitting at the table, they may not have noticed someone entering that part of the house, maybe they forgot to lock those doors. I doubt the accused entered the house through the dining room patio door.

Regardless, I suspect the reason police used the term "violent incident" is because it is the criminal code term to describe what happened. Police report facts. Incident seems vague, leaving possible that it was a minor incident. Struggle implies more violence than incident Either way, there was evidence of three murders in the Parkhill house ... struggle, or not, it was violent. Two adults against one, and still they lost. Why wouldn't they struggle when facing death? Sleeping?

Dining/living room furniture is off the market. The murder did not happen in the family room, nor the office (that furniture is still on the market). That leaves the master bedroom, the living room, the dining room, and the kitchen. What if Garland did a quick walk through the house during the sale, leaving out the side door and rigging the locks on his way out. He knew something about B&Es, and I doubt it was crawling through the milk shoot.

Meandering thoughts ...

 

[otto]

http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/accused-in-liknes-and-o-brien-murders-in-court-1.1959334
I read the msm article to mean no one is working as in the O family and extended L family
"I think it's essential because the Liknes' had six children and twelve grandchildren and the family is in pieces," Hodgins says. "Nobody is working, nobody can get back to normalcy, whatever normalcy is at this point. It's going to take a long time for us to be able to recover. This is a young family who didn't deserve this, but does deserve our love and support."

I hope that some of the money is put towards any grief counselling the family requires to get back on their feet. I assume that they are already enrolled in the services provided through the local, provincial, and federal governments. That would be a good question for Cherry Hodgins, friend of Kathryn Liknes: what counselling services is the family currently receiving? If they are not receiving any support, they should receive it. It's a public service. How will the money be spent such that it will help the family get back on their feet? Vacation? Retreat? Pastoral care? Career change assistance? I realize that there are six children, and that they each may have a different way of dealing with their grief (Scott Peterson), so what do they individually need to return to work?

 

[news.talk]

Incident implies that something happened (of a violent nature), struggle implies the same except that the victim struggled. It opens the question of whether they were asleep and it was an incident, or whether they were awake and there was a struggle. If the living room sofas and dining suite are no longer for sale, it could mean that these rooms were the crime seen. Would that mean that the victims were awake? Perhaps they were sitting at the dining room table counting the three day sale proceeds when Garland walked on in; the sign was still up. The front door may not have been locked. Perhaps he entered through the side door. There's also a back yard patio door that leads up the short staircase to the kitchen. If the couple were sitting at the table, they may not have noticed someone entering that part of the house, maybe they forgot to lock those doors. I doubt the accused entered the house through the dining room patio door.

Regardless, I suspect the reason police used the term "violent incident" is because it is the criminal code term to describe what happened. Police report facts. Incident seems vague, leaving possible that it was a minor incident. Struggle implies more violence than incident Either way, there was evidence of three murders in the Parkhill house ... struggle, or not, it was violent. Two adults against one, and still they lost. Why wouldn't they struggle when facing death? Sleeping?

Dining/living room furniture is off the market. The murder did not happen in the family room, nor the office (that furniture is still on the market). That leaves the master bedroom, the living room, the dining room, and the kitchen. What if Garland did a quick walk through the house during the sale, leaving out the side door and rigging the locks on his way out. He knew something about B&Es, and I doubt it was crawling through the milk shoot.

Meandering thoughts ...

Do we know that the items you mentioned were not sold? Perhaps they were that last fateful day?

 

[Cherchri]

Do we know that the items you mentioned were not sold? Perhaps they were that last fateful day?

Yes your thoughts meander a similar trail to my own. As you may recall, I have always envisaged a scenario where the three were overcome in their sleep (counting sheep rather than the takings from the three day estate sale). I believe the fact they were sleeping is what enabled DG to attack and overpower them very quickly. I think he would have had a struggle on his hands (yes I chose that word specifically) had all three or even just the two adults been awake. I have no thoughts as to how he entered the premises but agree not likely the milk chute. So my scenario works i.t.o. a violent incident as opposed to a violent struggle.

 

[news.talk]

Yes your thoughts meander a similar trail to my own. As you may recall, I have always envisaged a scenario where the three were overcome in their sleep (counting sheep rather than the takings from the three day estate sale). I believe the fact they were sleeping is what enabled DG to attack and overpower them very quickly. I think he would have had a struggle on his hands (yes I chose that word specifically) had all three or even just the two adults been awake. I have no thoughts as to how he entered the premises but agree not likely the milk chute. So my scenario works i.t.o. a violent incident as opposed to a violent struggle.

I completely agree. I tend to believe the three were bludgened in their sleep and there was no "struggle" involved. While LE use technical, legal terms, they are also cognizant of the facts - If indeed the evidence pointed towards a "violent struggle" - they would have said as much.