Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #17

[Lalalacasbah]

I still find it odd that no one has come forth to speak about DG's character or lifestyle.

Other than his co-worker/boss from his Vancouver job almost 20 years ago, or ALJr saying he's a loner, or being described as 'staring straight ahead while driving' by a local, that's all we've really heard.

I could see if anyone was to be involved with the trial unable to speak about persons involved, but that wouldn't stop locals or media.

This tells me media have possibly been asked or advised by LE to to not go out snooping/fishing or publish any info (not a ban, but more in respect to the trial perhaps) in relation to this and the media seems to be listening and obeying which I find a bit surprising.

We've heard lots of snippets about the Liknes/O'Briens from friends and neighbors, but very little about the Garlands. But, maybe this is a good thing, as victims tend to get 'lost' in the circus that like to focus on the accused.

 

[otto]

Oh I didn't clue into that part, thanks for pointing that out!

That actually makes me feel so much better knowing they are actively looking. I'm wondering if the dog picked up sporadic, remnant scents and LE know they're close (close could be many, many miles of a vicinity) and know they have to be around there somewhere as it seems that's a focus search area.

I don't think that police are close to finding the bodies, but the fact that over 40 investigative units from the Calgary Police Services consumed huge resources searching large swaths of rural farmland near Airdrie for the bodies tells us that there is no trace of the victims on the acreage belonging to the parents of the accused.

 

[LoisLane]

Wow, and only 18 months for it? I don't think this will do a thing to someone living a criminal lifestyle, I think they would just get out after and continue disobeying the law, who would learn from that? The laws need to get tougher IMO. Just like the Surrey Six Murder:

"Last year, former Red Scorpions gang leader Michael Le pleaded guilty to conspiracy to commit murder and was sentenced to 12 years in prison. His sentence was subsequently reduced to three years and one month after credit for time served. He then went on to*testify against his former gang mates.

Seems like a slap in the face to victims and their families if you ask me.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...r-and-matthew-johnston-found-guilty-1.2785184

I have been following that story I really like Kim Bolan from Vancouver Sun's. Bolan is very involved with the gang crime world, from a reporter's view.
http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2014/10/02/red-scorpions-turning-on-each-other-led-to-convictions/

 

[LoisLane]

Could it be possible that DG was assisting AL, KL by providing documentation for them to leave the country? By including NO that would be a measure taken to deter investigators from focusing on AL and KL as simply skipping town and focus resources on finding a young child that has mysteriously disappeared. How on earth could they smuggle a child out of the country?

Possibly DG was paid substantially (in advance) for his efforts and because he has the stayed charges for the ID of Matthew Hartley he will use this time as time-served for when and if he is found not-guilty. The piece-by-piece evidence may not be sufficient.

Why did DG have the Hartley ID at the time of arrest? Maybe to show as a comparison to the new ID (such as passports) he obtained for KL, AL, NO. When DG was prosecuted for the possession of fake ID that ID would have been confiscated and surely expired or out of date, as in no longer useful. How does he obtain current ID? Did he obtain identification for AL, KL, NO.? Was his ID needed to rent vehicles, drive the family somewhere, used as a precaution?

I wonder if this was suspected and investigated by LE (i.e.. trip to Mexico). Possibly it still is. Possibly the file is so sensitive that LE wants AL, KL to believe they are considered dead so they can continue the search. LE is not doing anything wrong by confirming that they are dead, they are basing it on evidence that a person can be considered dead when they have been reported missing. (A missing person can be considered dead when there has been no activity in relation to known bank accounts and credit cards). Demonstrating acceptance (that they are dead) would make it easier on AL, KL. It is only a matter of time for them to be more visible in public wherever that is and it could be monitored very closely.

I was on a FB group for the Army of Prayers for Liknes O'Brien family and there is a post from a family member of KL:

September 5 post by BK - family member to KL.
"I too believe they are out there alive may god and angels help them home ."

This is a victim family forum and I do accept that this could be quite an insensitive theory for me to post. Ultimately in this theory the victim is Nathan O'Brien.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

I don't think that police are close to finding the bodies, but the fact that over 40 investigative units from the Calgary Police Services consumed huge resources searching large swaths of rural farmland near Airdrie for the bodies tells us that there is no trace of the victims on the acreage belonging to the parents of the accused.

It could also be speculated that given the voluminous amounts of evidence, much of which seems to require lab results, that traces of the victims may have been found there.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

It would be helpful to know what the ID was used for that night and what other purposes it serves. Did DG use the alias on regular basis or for special circumstances? I wonder who makes fake ID these days and how accessible it is and how much it costs for "government issued" ID. The pieces that DG was using back in the day surely had expired and must have been turned over to police when he was charged years ago.

So far, all we basically know is that it was a credit card in MH's name... and even that has been debated here.

I think the obvious connection for a fake credit card would be for purchases that would hopefully not ever be traced back to yourself like bags, plastic, possible murder weapons, chemicals, rope... whatever was used committing the crime.

Conversely, he may have just had a lousy credit rating, and wanted a card to be able to make certain purchases... it's another one of those oddities in this case that may have to wait until trial to fully understand. The MH personality doesn't seem to have a prevalent online presence. It might be worth another plow through with fresh eyes.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

I still find it odd that no one has come forth to speak about DG's character or lifestyle.

Other than his co-worker/boss from his Vancouver job almost 20 years ago, or ALJr saying he's a loner, or being described as 'staring straight ahead while driving' by a local, that's all we've really heard.

I could see if anyone was to be involved with the trial unable to speak about persons involved, but that wouldn't stop locals or media.

This tells me media have possibly been asked or advised by LE to to not go out snooping/fishing or publish any info (not a ban, but more in respect to the trial perhaps) in relation to this and the media seems to be listening and obeying which I find a bit surprising.

We've heard lots of snippets about the Liknes/O'Briens from friends and neighbors, but very little about the Garlands. But, maybe this is a good thing, as victims tend to get 'lost' in the circus that like to focus on the accused.

It's also consistent with the "loner" description though... perhaps there is no one to come forward with any information.

Perhaps no one wants the notoriety and/or attention brought to themselves and their activities being connected to him.

Perhaps his close friends are just that, and don't want to speak publicly. Perhaps he's encouraged his friends and family to remain quiet, as it could hurt his case if it goes to trial.

There are many ways to read into the lack of personal information coming out. His battle to prove his innocence isn't in the public realm at this point... so a PR campaign isn't going to do much. It's all about the trial, so the less info that can be spun and used against you out there... the better.

 

[otto]

It could also be speculated that given the voluminous amounts of evidence, much of which seems to require lab results, that traces of the victims may have been found there.

All things are possible, but police are searching large swaths of rural farmland for bodies. If they're looking for bodies, then they weren't found on the property belonging to the parents of the accused.

What sorts of "traces" of three victims would be on property where the accused was living, and wouldn't any suspected "traces" of bodies be a high priority in terms of obtaining immediate results? Why would police be spending huge resources looking for bodies in farmland if the bodies could be traced to the property where the accused lived?

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

All things are possible, but police are searching large swaths of rural farmland for bodies. If they're looking for bodies, then they weren't found on the property belonging to the parents of the accused.

What sorts of "traces" of three victims would be on property where the accused was living, and wouldn't any suspected "traces" of bodies be a high priority in terms of obtaining immediate results? Why would police be spending huge resources looking for bodies in farmland if the bodies could be traced to the property where the accused lived?

Trace evidence could mean anything from hair to drops of blood to teeth or bone fragments to anything else from the victims. It's far too early to say absolutely nothing was found there. The fact LE is looking for "bodies" means they have not found majority of the solid, intact, pieces and parts we call a body. They found something somewhere enough to imply death, and something to indicate the suspect may have been involved.

You may be right... there may have been nothing found at the acreage. If not, then the case becomes even that more complicated to prove.

As far as immediacy of results... he was charged quite quickly, so preliminary results of something came back quickly. Once charged, the rest of the tests don't need to be rushed. The focus would be to ensure they are done thoroughly and accurately.

 

[otto]

Trace evidence could mean anything from hair to drops of blood to teeth or bone fragments to anything else from the victims. It's far too early to say absolutely nothing was found there. The fact LE is looking for "bodies" means they have not found majority of the solid, intact, pieces and parts we call a body. They found something somewhere enough to imply death, and something to indicate the suspect may have been involved.

You may be right... there may have been nothing found at the acreage. If not, then the case becomes even that more complicated to prove.

As far as immediacy of results... he was charged quite quickly, so preliminary results of something came back quickly. Once charged, the rest of the tests don't need to be rushed. The focus would be to ensure they are done thoroughly and accurately.

If there were bone fragments, or even teeth, belonging to the victims at any specific location, police would reveal that "partial remains" had been found, and at the memorial services for the victims, whatever remains were found would have been recognized. If a hair was found, it would not necessarily be evidence that the victims were at the property in Airdrie, as transfer evidence is a good explanation.

I would propose that the fact that police don't even know where to begin looking for bodies, aside from the large swaths of farmland, suggests that they have not found anything related to the bodies.

Police have concluded that there were murders at the Parkhill residence based on evidence at the scene. I don't think that there will be any problem proving that the murders occurred at the Parkhill residence, or that the accused is responsible. They have not found evidence of bodies, and have announced that they are proceeding with premeditated murder charges without bodies.

 

[LoisLane]

Identity Fraud Trends and Patterns:
Building a Data-Based Foundation for Proactive Enforcement

http://www.utica.edu/academic/insti...ns/media/cimip_id_theft_study_oct_22_noon.pdf

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Could it be possible that DG was assisting AL, KL by providing documentation for them to leave the country? By including NO that would be a measure taken to deter investigators from focusing on AL and KL as simply skipping town and focus resources on finding a young child that has mysteriously disappeared. How on earth could they smuggle a child out of the country?

Possibly DG was paid substantially (in advance) for his efforts and because he has the stayed charges for the ID of Matthew Hartley he will use this time as time-served for when and if he is found not-guilty. The piece-by-piece evidence may not be sufficient.

Why did DG have the Hartley ID at the time of arrest? Maybe to show as a comparison to the new ID (such as passports) he obtained for KL, AL, NO. When DG was prosecuted for the possession of fake ID that ID would have been confiscated and surely expired or out of date, as in no longer useful. How does he obtain current ID? Did he obtain identification for AL, KL, NO.? Was his ID needed to rent vehicles, drive the family somewhere, used as a precaution?

I wonder if this was suspected and investigated by LE (i.e.. trip to Mexico). Possibly it still is. Possibly the file is so sensitive that LE wants AL, KL to believe they are considered dead so they can continue the search. LE is not doing anything wrong by confirming that they are dead, they are basing it on evidence that a person can be considered dead when they have been reported missing. (A missing person can be considered dead when there has been no activity in relation to known bank accounts and credit cards). Demonstrating acceptance (that they are dead) would make it easier on AL, KL. It is only a matter of time for them to be more visible in public wherever that is and it could be monitored very closely.

I was on a FB group for the Army of Prayers for Liknes O'Brien family and there is a post from a family member of KL:

September 5 post by BK - family member to KL.
"I too believe they are out there alive may god and angels help them home ."

This is a victim family forum and I do accept that this could be quite an insensitive theory for me to post. Ultimately in this theory the victim is Nathan O'Brien.

If DG was a pro of sorts with fake ID and aliases and the Likneses were looking for a fresh start, he could have been assisting them to become 'unfound' somewhere or at least off the paper trail. I actually kind of wish this was the case because that would mean there's a sliver of possibility of them still being alive (I know, lashing coming for saying that).

The one thing that wouldn't fit into the plan is their place in Mexico was in their real name (Liknes), which would make it not off the radar. Unless they were planning to go somewhere other than Mexico and DG was assisting in 'living on the lam'.

With DG being caught in the possession of the old MH ID as a red herring, that might and could probably work.

The only thing that I can't see happening is KL agreeing any harm to NO. If AL/KL were going to live on the lam with the help of DG, I believe NO would've been taken with them. The other thing that stops me from thinking (wishing, hoping, praying) that this might've happened is the blood at the scene, not sure how that would be pulled off.

I wish they left and are out there somewhere, especially NO. I think that's why I think about it being possible, as then it leaves some sort of belief NO is still out there and not gone. I give my head a shake when I think these what ifs and maybes, but I can't help it.

I guess if they are found deceased I will stop having these thoughts that they might be out there.

 

[LoisLane]

If DG was a pro of sorts with fake ID and aliases and the Likneses were looking for a fresh start, he could have been assisting them to become 'unfound' somewhere or at least off the paper trail. I actually kind of wish this was the case because that would mean there's a sliver of possibility of them still being alive (I know, lashing coming for saying that).

The one thing that wouldn't fit into the plan is their place in Mexico was in their real name (Liknes), which would make it not off the radar. Unless they were planning to go somewhere other than Mexico and DG was assisting in 'living on the lam'.

With DG being caught in the possession of the old MH ID as a red herring, that might and could probably work.

The only thing that I can't see happening is KL agreeing any harm to NO. If AL/KL were going to live on the lam with the help of DG, I believe NO would've been taken with them. The other thing that stops me from thinking (wishing, hoping, praying) that this might've happened is the blood at the scene, not sure how that would be pulled off.

I wish they left and are out there somewhere, especially NO. I think that's why I think about it being possible, as then it leaves some sort of belief NO is still out there and not gone. I give my head a shake when I think these what ifs and maybes, but I can't help it.

I guess if they are found deceased I will stop having these thoughts that they might be out there.

I can't see them going to the house in Mexico if it can be traced back to them, they would have been caught by now. I am sure that housing wouldn't be an issue if they left the country. They could access something affordable, private, a rental online. I do not think they are capable of harming Nathan and that he would be with them. I think that if they did do this they would be seriously considering the wrong they have done and that they are in big trouble. I would hope they can keep calm and turn themselves in and not try to take it further. As for the blood I am not convinced the evidence at the house would be enough blood to indicate a death had taken place. LE has never stated that the blood and DNA confirms anything and so I have a problem with that. If a family member still believes they could be found alive I don't think we are too off-base in considering the idea.

I feel badly for thinking ill of the grandparents but something is just not right about them and I would take this theory over any other if it meant the grandparents and Nathan were alive and safe. Once the court proceedings start I am sure this will be a more straightforward forum but until evidence is presented I still believe they are alive. How would the case be jeopardized if LE released a simple statement to state that blood and DNA evidence is substantial enough to presume the victims are dead. They haven't even said that.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

If DG was a pro of sorts with fake ID and aliases and the Likneses were looking for a fresh start, he could have been assisting them to become 'unfound' somewhere or at least off the paper trail. I actually kind of wish this was the case because that would mean there's a sliver of possibility of them still being alive (I know, lashing coming for saying that).

The one thing that wouldn't fit into the plan is their place in Mexico was in their real name (Liknes), which would make it not off the radar. Unless they were planning to go somewhere other than Mexico and DG was assisting in 'living on the lam'.

With DG being caught in the possession of the old MH ID as a red herring, that might and could probably work.

The only thing that I can't see happening is KL agreeing any harm to NO. If AL/KL were going to live on the lam with the help of DG, I believe NO would've been taken with them. The other thing that stops me from thinking (wishing, hoping, praying) that this might've happened is the blood at the scene, not sure how that would be pulled off.

I wish they left and are out there somewhere, especially NO. I think that's why I think about it being possible, as then it leaves some sort of belief NO is still out there and not gone. I give my head a shake when I think these what ifs and maybes, but I can't help it.

I guess if they are found deceased I will stop having these thoughts that they might be out there.

You won't get any backlash from me...its as plausible an idea as the other alternative. Leaving blood at the scene would not be impossible. JMO

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

If DG was a pro of sorts with fake ID and aliases and the Likneses were looking for a fresh start, he could have been assisting them to become 'unfound' somewhere or at least off the paper trail. I actually kind of wish this was the case because that would mean there's a sliver of possibility of them still being alive (I know, lashing coming for saying that).

The one thing that wouldn't fit into the plan is their place in Mexico was in their real name (Liknes), which would make it not off the radar. Unless they were planning to go somewhere other than Mexico and DG was assisting in 'living on the lam'.

With DG being caught in the possession of the old MH ID as a red herring, that might and could probably work.

The only thing that I can't see happening is KL agreeing any harm to NO. If AL/KL were going to live on the lam with the help of DG, I believe NO would've been taken with them. The other thing that stops me from thinking (wishing, hoping, praying) that this might've happened is the blood at the scene, not sure how that would be pulled off.

I wish they left and are out there somewhere, especially NO. I think that's why I think about it being possible, as then it leaves some sort of belief NO is still out there and not gone. I give my head a shake when I think these what ifs and maybes, but I can't help it.

I guess if they are found deceased I will stop having these thoughts that they might be out there.

It would make for interesting tv if the child weren't involved. Taking him, harming him, or anything to do with him being a part of hiding seems to over-complicate that plan. It would knowingly bring undue attention to yourselves and your disappearance if you were quietly trying to get away... the fake ID expert is a clever angle but sadly, given the charges and voluminous evidence, highly unlikely.

 

[LoisLane]

It would make for interesting tv if the child weren't involved. Taking him, harming him, or anything to do with him being a part of hiding seems to over-complicate that plan. It would knowingly bring undue attention to yourselves and your disappearance if you were quietly trying to get away... the fake ID expert is a clever angle but sadly, given the charges and voluminous evidence, highly unlikely.

I wonder if NO was kept out of the equation where would this investigation lead? Would they be confirmed dead already? Would there have been assumptions that they left the country to avoid financial circumstances? The process was sped up because of NO and they were comfirmed dead within weeks of the disappearance. Maybe the L's really needed to be classified as dead and this was the quickest way to get there.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

It would make for interesting tv if the child weren't involved. Taking him, harming him, or anything to do with him being a part of hiding seems to over-complicate that plan. It would knowingly bring undue attention to yourselves and your disappearance if you were quietly trying to get away... the fake ID expert is a clever angle but sadly, given the charges and voluminous evidence, highly unlikely.

I know you are right, the inclusion of NO changes everything. My rationale says no way, but the whole mystery, background and circumstances of this case says maybe.

But with NO being there it's true what you said - it screams for attention from LE and I doubt KL would do this to JO. I don't think in the most desperate of circumstances KL would do this to JO unless she was unstable of sorts and not realizing the seriousness of things.

But again, it's probably a TV/movie theory, and not real life. I just wish they'd be found so my mind wouldn't think 'what if' or just maybe

 

[otto]

I wonder if NO was kept out of the equation where would this investigation lead? Would they be confirmed dead already? Would there have been assumptions that they left the country to avoid financial circumstances? The process was sped up because of NO and they were comfirmed dead within weeks of the disappearance. Maybe the L's really needed to be classified as dead and this was the quickest way to get there.

It's just a gut feeling, but I'm pretty sure that there's something at the crime scene that confirms, without bodies, that the grandparents are deceased. As I've said several times, I'm pretty sure that the scene is more horrific than people imagined. Before information about the extent of blood at the Parkhill house was leaked, I thought that if we omit Nathan from the equation, there may have been an assumption that the grandparents simply skipped town. The timing was right, as they'd wrapped up everything in Canada. I initially assumed that the only factor that caused Nathan's mom to phone police was that the family was missing. Now, I think it was evidence at the crime scene that left no doubt that not only was someone in medical distress, but people were murdered in the house.

In terms of timing, police said that they had fast tracked forensics and were waiting for results. Two weeks later, which is what it usually takes for DNA results, the victims were confirmed deceased and Douglas Garland was arrested. The timing had nothing to do with Nathan, and I doubt that there was any reason for the Liknes couple to be declared dead.

 

[LoisLane]

It's just a gut feeling, but I'm pretty sure that there's something at the crime scene that confirms, without bodies, that the grandparents are deceased. As I've said several times, I'm pretty sure that the scene is more horrific than people imagined. Before information about the extent of blood at the Parkhill house was leaked, I thought that if we omit Nathan from the equation, there may have been an assumption that the grandparents simply skipped town. The timing was right, as they'd wrapped up everything in Canada. I initially assumed that the only factor that caused Nathan's mom to phone police was that the family was missing. Now, I think it was evidence at the crime scene that left no doubt that not only was someone in medical distress, but people were murdered in the house.

In terms of timing, police said that they had fast tracked forensics and were waiting for results. Two weeks later, which is what it usually takes for DNA results, the victims were confirmed deceased and Douglas Garland was arrested. The timing had nothing to do with Nathan, and I doubt that there was any reason for the Liknes couple to be declared dead.

Yes, it all makes sense. However, the police led us to believe otherwise in those first few days. Why issue an Amber Alert and lead us to believe they could be seen travelling in a vehicle? If the home was a horrific crime scene they could have asked the public to pay attention to something else, such as dead bodies along roadsides, forests, etc., the search of landfills could have been done in the beginning, not the end. JMO.

 

[otto]

Yes, it all makes sense. However, the police led us to believe otherwise in those first few days. Why issue an Amber Alert and lead us to believe they could be seen travelling in a vehicle? If the home was a horrific crime scene they could have asked the public to pay attention to something else, such as dead bodies along roadsides, forests, etc., the search of landfills could have been done in the beginning, not the end. JMO.

Police released information as necessary, and as it was confirmed, in order to solve the case. The initial Amber Alert was for Nathan and his grandfather, which suggests that there was clear evidence that Kathryn was mortally wounded (medical distress) at the Parkhill crime scene. Two weeks later, after DNA results were returned, the Amber Alert was cancelled, and police charged Garland with first degree murder. There's really nothing misleading about that. Everyone hoped that someone survived the home invasion. Two weeks later, all hope was removed.

After all hope was removed, police did ask everyone to keep their eyes open for bodies, and people in rural communities were asked to search their properties. That's fairly standard practice when someone is missing, presumed deceased, and presumed to be in a rural area.

It seems that the objection is that police did not immediately cancel the Amber Alert and declare the victims deceased, but that simply wasn't possible until there was confirmation that the victims could no longer be alive.