Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #17

[kaley]

I can't see them going to the house in Mexico if it can be traced back to them, they would have been caught by now. I am sure that housing wouldn't be an issue if they left the country. They could access something affordable, private, a rental online. I do not think they are capable of harming Nathan and that he would be with them. I think that if they did do this they would be seriously considering the wrong they have done and that they are in big trouble. I would hope they can keep calm and turn themselves in and not try to take it further. As for the blood I am not convinced the evidence at the house would be enough blood to indicate a death had taken place. LE has never stated that the blood and DNA confirms anything and so I have a problem with that. If a family member still believes they could be found alive I don't think we are too off-base in considering the idea.

I feel badly for thinking ill of the grandparents but something is just not right about them and I would take this theory over any other if it meant the grandparents and Nathan were alive and safe. Once the court proceedings start I am sure this will be a more straightforward forum but until evidence is presented I still believe they are alive. How would the case be jeopardized if LE released a simple statement to state that blood and DNA evidence is substantial enough to presume the victims are dead. They haven't even said that.

I completely agree with you and Lala. Except one thing. I don't think KL could take NO away from JO. However, I believe that AL may have. What if the plan was to take NO and leave the country but at the last minute KL had a change of heart? DG may have gone to the Parkhill home to bring the ID etc. to KL and AL but instead ended up helping AL "take care" of KL. NO may have been drugged so he slept through the murder and AL and DG could have worked together to murder and dispose of KL. This would explain how DG couldn't have removed all 3 bodies from the home on his own, the many reports across Canada that a man fitting AL's description was seen with a boy fitting the description of NO, the initial amber alert that NO may be in the company of his grandfather, the lack of reports from neighbours that they heard any sounds coming from the Liknes home on the 29th. Maybe DG even took NO for a drive while AL did everything on his own or vise versa. This is all completely MOO but so much of this case and the facts don't ad up.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I completely agree with you and Lala. Except one thing. I don't think KL could take NO away from JO. However, I believe that AL may have. What if the plan was to take NO and leave the country but at the last minute KL had a change of heart? DG may have gone to the Parkhill home to bring the ID etc. to KL and AL but instead ended up helping AL "take care" of KL. NO may have been drugged so he slept through the murder and AL and DG could have worked together to murder and dispose of KL. This would explain how DG couldn't have removed all 3 bodies from the home on his own, the many reports across Canada that a man fitting AL's description was seen with a boy fitting the description of NO, the initial amber alert that NO may be in the company of his grandfather, the lack of reports from neighbours that they heard any sounds coming from the Liknes home on the 29th. Maybe DG even took NO for a drive while AL did everything on his own or vise versa. This is all completely MOO but so much of this case and the facts don't ad up.

Oops you responded to LL's post, Lala and LL, we're probably confusing people lol.

Kaley, you posted something I have thought about also but I wasn't sure I wanted to post. I wondered how happy AL and KL were and if AL was desperate enough to flee without KL. Maybe she was the spender of money, maybe there was trouble.

I hate to even think these things, glad I'm not the only one though. This theory makes everything fit though if you think about it….

 

[kaley]

I completely agree with you and Lala. Except one thing. I don't think KL could take NO away from JO. However, I believe that AL may have. What if the plan was to take NO and leave the country but at the last minute KL had a change of heart? DG may have gone to the Parkhill home to bring the ID etc. to KL and AL but instead ended up helping AL "take care" of KL. NO may have been drugged so he slept through the murder and AL and DG could have worked together to murder and dispose of KL. This would explain how DG couldn't have removed all 3 bodies from the home on his own, the many reports across Canada that a man fitting AL's description was seen with a boy fitting the description of NO, the initial amber alert that NO may be in the company of his grandfather, the lack of reports from neighbours that they heard any sounds coming from the Liknes home on the 29th. Maybe DG even took NO for a drive while AL did everything on his own or vise versa. This is all completely MOO but so much of this case and the facts don't ad up.

Sorry I am quoting myself but I also wanted to say that I believe LE only found traces of KL's blood in the home. I also think that AL and NO went with DG in his truck which is perhaps how their DNA was found there. Not sure if they can tell if DNA ie hair come from a deceased body or an alive one. I also think that maybe DG had KL's identification at the Airdrie property because they wouldn't be needing it anymore and maybe that is what he was burning on the night of the 29th.

 

[news.talk]

Declared death in absentia is possible under two circumstances - One through the courts and the other by the Medical Examiner.

A court can rule that a missing person is presumed dead based on the fact that a person has been missing for an extended period of time and in the absence of any evidence that the person is still alive, or when the circumstances surrounding a person's disappearance overwhelmingly support the belief that the person has died (e.g., an airplane crash). A declaration that a person is dead resembles other forms of "preventive adjudication", such as the declaratory judgment. Different jurisdictions have different legal standards for obtaining such a declaration and in some jurisdictions a legal presumption of death may arise after a person has been missing under certain circumstances and a certain amount of time.

The other way death can be determined in absentia, is that life cannot be sustained based on physical forensic evidence. A Medical Examiner can conclude the identity of the victim and loss of life from body fluids, tissue and various chemical components that a human body only present after death.

In this case, it was the latter that concluded death in absentia.

From one MSM article:


Proving death is among the essential elements in the offence of murder.

"But I wouldn't want to suggest that that makes this a very difficult prosecution. It doesn't," Lacy said. "It really depends on other circumstances — a motive, for example, would be an important element of the Crown's case."

Types of murder charges telling:

A motive could be materializing based on interviews with Douglas Garland, who is currently in police custody and charged with two counts of first-degree murder and one count of second-degree murder.

Police previously told reporters that Garland harboured "bad blood" with Alvin Liknes over a business feud.

The two types of murder charges in this case are also telling.

First-degree murder in Canada refers to a planned and premeditated crime.

"They have evidence an individual went to that house for the purposes of committing that crime," Holmgren said. "For the second-degree murder charge, the individual might not have known there was a little boy in this house, and didn't have the premeditated component to have planned that murder, but in the commission of committing the alleged [planned] crimes, the person is presumed to have also murdered the little boy."

More questioning of the suspect is to come. Garland will likely be confronted with evidence gathered so far and asked to respond to it, Holmgren said, adding she has been impressed by the speed of the investigation so far.

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/cal...-could-be-prosecuted-without-bodies-1.2706996

 

[Sillybilly]

It is normal for there to be numerous sightings of people from ocean to ocean while they are missing, and well after they are deceased. They are false sightings.

Now we're going to assume that the victims aren't dead; that the medical examiner and police are just plain stupid? That is, they'd have to be just plain stupid to confirm that living people are deceased. Perspective is good:

"The whole is greater than the sum of its parts" ~ Aristotle

"Merely adding up the component parts is meaningless compared with the "part-whole" relationship"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24406559

The drag marks in isolation are meaningless. The facts of the case, in totality, tell us the story of what happened.

<bbm>

As in "totality of the evidence" ... enough circumstantial to even bring a 1st degree murder case without bodies. Circumstantial "beyond a reasonable doubt" ... under the circumstances, blood is reasonable ... IMO, Koolaid etc, not so much.

Anyone have any links to MSM reports of the L's being seen across Canada? I recall some anecdotal stuff online, but not MSM.

 

[LoisLane]

This kind of error upsets me. The media outlets could not issue the AA out to the public properly. If you look at the AA website the information includes all 3 people. It also includes the updates as they came in.

AA - June 30
http://emergencyalert.alberta.ca/alerts/2014/06/2568.html

Green truck description updated to AA on July 5
http://emergencyalert.alberta.ca/alerts/2014/07/2576.html


ETA: Just fixing the links to the Amber Alert.

 

[LoisLane]

Regarding the Amber Alerts.. is it odd that it would state that the child was last seen in the area of MacLeod Trail in Southwest Calgary, as opposed to the actual location from where the child went missing? (Isnt' Winpet's address on MacLeod Trail?)

My guess is that they want to inform the public of the general area that the Liknes home was in because most people wouldn't know the location based on city coordinates and the Parkhill reference. Macleod Trail is just a block away and very easy to identify. The AA states "The child was last seen in the area of MacLeod Trail in South West Calgary."

I took a drive with the google street view from the home to Macleod Trail:

One route would be straight from the house down 38A Ave., right on Stanley, left on 39A Ave., 39A Ave. connects immediately to Macleod Trail. 39A Ave. has a set of lights so you can go 3 directions. This side of the intersection also has a 7-11 Gas Station and a car lot on it. I would think they have CCTV cameras.

Another route is 38 Ave. From the house 38A Ave., turn left on Parkhill St., right on 38 Ave., connects immediately to Macleod Trail. There is a median dividing Macleod Trail here so you could drive over it to head North or else turn right (south). This intersection has a car dealer on both sides of 38Ave. and a Tim Hortons directly across the intersection. I would think they have CCTV cameras.

From Macleod Trail the points of travel are endless.

Winter is 20 blocks South. 5809 Macleod Trail SW.

Amber Alert link: http://emergencyalert.alberta.ca/alerts/2014/07/2576.html

ETA.... I wonder if the 2 vehicle thefts the morning of the 29th were at the car lots or residential, there was also a residential break-in that morning of the 29th as per the crime map.

 

[deugirtni]

At the website below, you can click on each of the updates to see the next versions. I have pasted text from the one posted June 30th at 5;13pm.
I suppose in all AA's, it says 'not to approach the suspect' ?
BBM

http://emergencyalert.alberta.ca/alerts/2014/06/2568.html

From: Calgary Police Service
Issued: Mon Jun 30 5:13 PM 2014
Ends: No Longer in Effect
expand/contract History:

Alert: Mon Jun 30 5:13 PM 2014
Update: Tue Jul 01 1:13 PM 2014
Update: Wed Jul 02 4:24 PM 2014
Update: Sat Jul 05 7:46 PM 2014
Update: Wed Jul 09 3:38 PM 2014
Update: Thu Jul 10 5:53 PM 2014
Cancel: Mon Jul 14 12:01 PM 2014


expand/contract Area: Alberta Hide Map
expand/contract Description:
An AMBER Alert has been issued for the abduction of a 5 year old male from South West Calgary today. Nathan O’Brien, is a white male, 3 feet tall, with curly blonde hair. Last seen wearing peach colored shorts and a blue striped hoody. Nathan may be in the company of his grandfather Alvin Liknes, a white male, 6 feet tall, 200 lbs with grey and blond hair, black shorts. Alvin has a distinctive walk. His grandmother Kathryn Liknes is described as 5foot 3 tall, 120 pounds with red and brown hair and green eyes.
The child was last seen in the area of MacLeod Trail in South West Calgary. Anyone with information regarding the child is asked to call Calgary Police at 4 0 3, 5 3 2, 6 2 3 7

Photos of the Nathan, Alvin and Kathryn are available in the Calgary Police Service NewsRoom
expand/contract Instructions:
Do not approach the suspect. Please contact the police if you have any information.

deugirtni, do you have a link to the amber alert?

 

[deugirtni]

BBM

http://www.calgarysun.com/2014/07/08/calgary-police-update-search-for-missing-family

Tips and sightings also continue to stream in from across the country, but so far none have been proven fruitful.
“We have had Amber Alert tips and potential sightings on these three family members right across Canada,” Brookwell said.
“We have not been able to confirm a positive sighting of the three since they disappeared.”

http://bc.ctvnews.ca/murder-charges-formally-laid-against-douglas-garland-in-calgary-missing-trio-1.1914384

From the beginning, the case captivated people across the country. Thousands of people wrote messages on a blog for the family and police received more than 900 tips from the public, including sightings reported from coast to coast.

http://metronews.ca/news/calgary/10...use-where-missing-calgary-trio-was-last-seen/

Police announced an Amber Alert early Monday evening and, as of Wednesday, had fielded more than 100 tips from across Canada, including possible sightings of the trio.

<bbm>

.... Anyone have any links to MSM reports of the L's being seen across Canada? I recall some anecdotal stuff online, but not MSM.

 

[LoisLane]

I completely agree with you and Lala. Except one thing. I don't think KL could take NO away from JO. However, I believe that AL may have. What if the plan was to take NO and leave the country but at the last minute KL had a change of heart? DG may have gone to the Parkhill home to bring the ID etc. to KL and AL but instead ended up helping AL "take care" of KL. NO may have been drugged so he slept through the murder and AL and DG could have worked together to murder and dispose of KL. This would explain how DG couldn't have removed all 3 bodies from the home on his own, the many reports across Canada that a man fitting AL's description was seen with a boy fitting the description of NO, the initial amber alert that NO may be in the company of his grandfather, the lack of reports from neighbours that they heard any sounds coming from the Liknes home on the 29th. Maybe DG even took NO for a drive while AL did everything on his own or vise versa. This is all completely MOO but so much of this case and the facts don't ad up.

I have thought of this scenario as well. My only issue I have with it is that if AL was planning the events that evening including murdering KL why would he let Nathan spend the night? He could have found a way to ensure that he went home. But, maybe that was considered as well and helped to create all this mess in the first place. Yes, KL could have had a change of heart after JO had left and things spiraled. I would imagine her change of heart would have been obvious to AL through the planning process and he would have recognized that and it could have been easier on KL if she did not have the guilt of taking NO away from his family. If that makes any sense...sigh!

 

[LoisLane]

Oops you responded to LL's post, Lala and LL, we're probably confusing people lol.

Kaley, you posted something I have thought about also but I wasn't sure I wanted to post. I wondered how happy AL and KL were and if AL was desperate enough to flee without KL. Maybe she was the spender of money, maybe there was trouble.

I hate to even think these things, glad I'm not the only one though. This theory makes everything fit though if you think about it….

Yes, I wonder if they had marital problems. The family has not touched on that, in fact the opposite. Family secrets and dirty laundry can be very well hidden.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I have thought of this scenario as well. My only issue I have with it is that if AL was planning the events that evening including murdering KL why would he let Nathan spend the night? He could have found a way to ensure that he went home. But, maybe that was considered as well and helped to create all this mess in the first place. Yes, KL could have had a change of heart after JO had left and things spiraled. I would imagine her change of heart would have been obvious to AL through the planning process and he would have recognized that and it could have been easier on KL if she did not have the guilt of taking NO away from his family. If that makes any sense...sigh!

WARNING: my comments may result in lashings:

Okay, so I'm letting my imagination roll with this, why? Because unfortunately human beings do terrible things to each other everyday and do terrible things to theirs spouses and family.

Hypothetical theory, just because why not! Maybe AL was in so much trouble he had to leave without KL. Maybe he blamed KL or resented her, maybe they had a contentious relationship, who knows. Like Kaley said, KL would never take NO from JO, but AL might in selfishness. Maybe DG was assisting AL with a new life as well as a spousal murder? Who came up with the idea of the estate sale? KL or AL?

A single violent crime could have occurred in the home and the other two crime scenes could have been touched with DNA if they were indecisive about disposal locations, maybe changed their mind? Although I would think DG would've dealt with the clean up and AL would've been long gone on his private plane over the border before an AA was issued.

This idea doesn't make LE incompetent, that is not what this means. This means they would very well know the scheme and are willing to rightfully charge DG with 3 homicides because technically, that's what it looks like evidence wise.

It's possible LE figures, if DG wants to take all the blame so be it. It happens all the time in partnered crimes, DG is making his own bed unless he talks. So technically, this is not trickery but legal grounds based on evidence. Maybe the Mexico condo is DG and AL on the title? Maybe DG was sneaking to the acreage after the first arrest to follow a plan to leave?

I don't want to offend anyone especially victims, but I'd almost rather this outrageous idea than what we're faced with now. This idea would mean NO is alive.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

WARNING: my comments may result in lashings:

Okay, so I'm letting my imagination roll with this, why? Because unfortunately human beings do terrible things to each other everyday and do terrible things to theirs spouses and family.

Hypothetical theory, just because why not! Maybe AL was in so much trouble he had to leave without KL. Maybe he blamed KL or resented her, maybe they had a contentious relationship, who knows. Like Kaley said, KL would never take NO from JO, but AL might in selfishness. Maybe DG was assisting AL with a new life as well as a spousal murder? Who came up with the idea of the estate sale? KL or AL?

A single violent crime could have occurred in the home and the other two crime scenes could have been touched with DNA if they were indecisive about disposal locations, maybe changed their mind? Although I would think DG would've dealt with the clean up and AL would've been long gone on his private plane over the border before an AA was issued.

This idea doesn't make LE incompetent, that is not what this means. This means they would very well know the scheme and are willing to rightfully charge DG with 3 homicides because technically, that's what it looks like evidence wise.

It's possible LE figures, if DG wants to take all the blame so be it. It happens all the time in partnered crimes, DG is making his own bed unless he talks. So technically, this is not trickery but legal grounds based on evidence. Maybe the Mexico condo is DG and AL on the title? Maybe DG was sneaking to the acreage after the first arrest to follow a plan to leave?

I don't want to offend anyone especially victims, but I'd almost rather this outrageous idea than what we're faced with now. This idea would mean NO is alive.

Lashing indeed. I assume there must be some indication AL is deceased as well. I would hope there is more than just 'he's gone, therefore he's deceased'. I haven't heard a single word about any issues between the two, and taking NO somewhere, anywhere, is unbelievably risky.

Sadly, it's highly likely that the current narrative will stay that way until a verdict or plea. It would be interesting to see what paths LE followed to arrive at dead ends in this. It would help to understand the investigative process in something as complex as this case.

 

[Slebby]

That is *very* odd, and it happens to not be the only thing that has disappeared. LoisLane and I both clearly recall on one of the videos of LE doing an update, that the officer (Andrus?) had made a comment about how putting pieces of evidence together, and after x many days of people not using their bank accounts, and etc., that they can be presumed dead. Neither of us, after vigorous searching, can find that statement in the videos any more, anywhere.

I wonder if the comment about not using bank accounts, that they can be "presumed dead" indicates something different from the legal definition of "presumed dead"? IOW, from a purely investigative standpoint, after LE has monitored bank accounts and credit cards, and they've been left untouched, it would look less and less like a missing persons case and more and more like a murder investigation. At some point, LE might "presume death".

However, to legally declare them dead would, IMO, require a higher standard.

 

[casesensitive]

IMO- I think it is obvious that if LE had any thought that AL was a fugitive and took off with NO, there would be one of the biggest, public manhunts in Canada (and else where) going on as we speak.

 

[news.talk]

I wonder if the comment about not using bank accounts, that they can be "presumed dead" indicates something different from the legal definition of "presumed dead"? IOW, from a purely investigative standpoint, after LE has monitored bank accounts and credit cards, and they've been left untouched, it would look less and less like a missing persons case and more and more like a murder investigation. At some point, LE might "presume death".

However, to legally declare them dead would, IMO, require a higher standard.

As I pointed out in my post upthread, there are two ways to arrive at the declaration of death in absentia - One being through the courts, in which they look at things like not using bank accounts over an extended period of time, and the other being by the Medical Examiner, as is the case in this investigation. The ME doesn't use those "presumptions" but rather bases a conclusion on forensic evidence.

Since the standard is more absolute with the ME declaration, we can assume this was based on blood loss, human tissue and more importantly, the cellular analysis of certain chemical changes that only occur with death.

IMO, there wasn't a decision that the three were dead and to charge a man with two counts of first degree murder and one count of second degree murder, just because they hadn't used their bank accounts for a week. That would be absurd. I cannot fathom that the Chief Medical Examiner either made a mistake or was duped by two Grandparents.

 

[LoisLane]

IMO- I think it is obvious that if LE had any thought that AL was a fugitive and took off with NO, there would be one of the biggest, public manhunts in Canada (and else where) going on as we speak.

True. How long can a manhunt go on for? Surely they have limits.

 

[LoisLane]

As I pointed out in my post upthread, there are two ways to arrive at the declaration of death in absentia - One being through the courts, in which they look at things like not using bank accounts over an extended period of time, and the other being by the Medical Examiner, as is the case in this investigation. The ME doesn't use those "presumptions" but rather bases a conclusion on forensic evidence.

Since the standard is more absolute with the ME declaration, we can assume this was based on blood loss, human tissue and more importantly, the cellular analysis of certain chemical changes that only occur with death.

IMO, there wasn't a decision that the three were dead and to charge a man with two counts of first degree murder and one count of second degree murder, just because they hadn't used their bank accounts for a week. That would be absurd. I cannot fathom that the Chief Medical Examiner either made a mistake or was duped by two Grandparents.

That would be absurd. It could however be a piece that they put together with other pieces to make the charges.

 

[Slebby]

As I pointed out in my post upthread, there are two ways to arrive at the declaration of death in absentia - One being through the courts, in which they look at things like not using bank accounts over an extended period of time, and the other being by the Medical Examiner, as is the case in this investigation. The ME doesn't use those "presumptions" but rather bases a conclusion on forensic evidence.

Since the standard is more absolute with the ME declaration, we can assume this was based on blood loss, human tissue and more importantly, the cellular analysis of certain chemical changes that only occur with death.

IMO, there wasn't a decision that the three were dead and to charge a man with two counts of first degree murder and one count of second degree murder, just because they hadn't used their bank accounts for a week. That would be absurd. I cannot fathom that the Chief Medical Examiner either made a mistake or was duped by two Grandparents.

I agree, news talk. I fully believe LE has declared these 3 missing as deceased because of irrefutable forensic evidence,

I also believe that since it seems they have been determined to be deceased through forensics, this nullifies any so-called sightings. I think folks reported *possible* sightings in good faith when they saw a grampa and grandson pairing that resembled NO and AL.

I'm sure it happens a lot, that a missing person is reportedly spotted by well-meaning tipsters, only for the facts to later emerge that the missing was in fact already dead at the time of the sighting. My memory is rusty, but I seem to recall there were alleged sightings of Laci Peterson, yet later it was proven she was already dead at the time. Caylee Anthony was *spotted* alive, yet it later turned out her little body was decomposing a the time of the so-called sightings.

IMHO

 

[news.talk]

That would be absurd. It could however be a piece that they put together with other pieces to make the charges.

The homicide investigation and subsequent court case has been put together "piece by piece". The Medical Examiner's ruling that death occurred for each victim, was NOT. Those rulings of death are a legal and medical fact.