Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #18

[Cherchri]

I would be extremely upset if my off-the-record conversation with a fellow reporter ended up on websleuths with me being identifiable.

I am no longer a reporter and identified myself - as stated - when she approached me. It was not entirely private either since we were in a group. I was also very open about the fact that I would be sharing the day's events on this forum. She went so far as to say she hadn't checked our posts in a while and would do so. What, in particular, that I shared could possibly cause offence or embarrassment? I will have to check back and see what I shared but IIRC the only tidbit that was newsworthy was her mention of the truck being picked up twice on CCTV. That would clearly be of interest to those of us here. OK so I went back an copied what I wrote on Sept 17th as it pertains to my discussion. I really can't see what all the fuss is about. Here it is: "I had a lovely long talk with Elissa Carpenter of CTV News. She has her own theory and I have to tell you that it varies only very slightly from mine. I overheard another reporter saying he is watching Breaking Bad on netflix as he is sure the victim disposal was close. Another said he was aware that lye was removed from the property and he had seen an overhead of an incinerator. He said "not an industrial incinerator" but an incinerator nonetheless. Elissa talked to me about the timeline of the truck on CCTV in Parkhill. First picked up at 9:15 and then again at 10:15. She speculates he would have seen JO's vehicle at 9:15 and came back later when it appeared "company" had left" BBM

 

[deugirtni]

Do you mean down below, underneath the doors? I remember there was WS conversation regarding the mud there, a long time ago.

Here is the pic that shows the mud runs the whole length of the truck.
View attachment 61264

 

[deugirtni]

LoriMcA there is a video I was looking at just the other day, and it showed a pic of the garage-door-opener on the side of the garage, and it had 'streams' of what definitely looked to be blood, underneath it. I came upon the video some time around when LoisLane posted pics of the LE vehicle parked in the neighbour's driveway. I have looked and looked and looked and cannot find it again! Ugh! Any clue?? The only thing I can think is that the video must have been from sometime prior to July 4th because ones from that date forward have the door already tampered with.

Regarding the driveway/garage door....here is an awesome picture....large...with a clear view before the forensics went through:

http://vipmedia.globalnews.ca/2014/06/missing-family-liknes-house.jpg?w=1200&h=800&crop=1

and after:

http://wpmedia.news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/liknes-house.jpg?w=620

http://www.ctvnews.ca/polopoly_fs/1...e.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_960/image.jpg



The only thing I've seen in the driveway in the location where the 'red' might be beside AL's truck is a twisted section of an extension cord *orange* seen here looking toward the #15 & #16 markers:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/calgary/cms/binary/9990715.jpg?size=620x400s

JMOO

 

[LoisLane]

This isn't it but what do you think the red spot is on the driveway near the truck?

View attachment 61263

I need to learn more about blood and what happens as it oxidizes over a period of time. If it was missed in the speculated wash down I wonder if a vehicle had parked over top of it and missed it. It just seems like a lot of different patterns and locations for moving already dead people. JMO!

 

[LoriMcA]

LoriMcA there is a video I was looking at just the other day, and it showed a pic of the garage-door-opener on the side of the garage, and it had 'streams' of what definitely looked to be blood, underneath it. I came upon the video some time around when LoisLane posted pics of the LE vehicle parked in the neighbour's driveway. I have looked and looked and looked and cannot find it again! Ugh! Any clue?? The only thing I can think is that the video must have been from sometime prior to July 4th because ones from that date forward have the door already tampered with.

I've seen streams on the door but to me they were always after ....streams of the purple residue/after effects of Luminol or BlueStar....it was quite vibrant...then greyish later on...
The picture link I posted above where it is quite grey and faded....shows the memorial candle holder & seems to be when cleanup has started...you can see where some of the residue has been cleaned off & not nearly as obvious on the door & frame of the garage.....
I don't recall streams of blood or blood-like material....but the residue from forensics...yes....*then again I've looked at so many pictures & video in regards to this...makes my head spin!* I hope you do find that video &/or picture...I would love to see it as well.....*don't you just hate it when you know....KNOW...you've seen something and it gets lost in the shuffle?*L* Drives me batty.....

I'll keep my eyes peeled too

 

[LoisLane]

Sorry, I just grabbed some time to finally read that news article about this different case, so this is not a timely reply. That story is just incredibly sad.
You were saying that it seems fitting for conversations going on here in WS. I agree.
The thing is though.... if LE only release minute amounts of information, and MSM reports on that minute amount of information, unfortunately I think it is human nature that minds start 'sleuthing', and unfortunately, what the human mind might conjure up can be so many times worse than reality.
That is part of what really bugs me about this particular case, because I think that LE are quite aware of human nature, and so by saying less, are they in effect creating a drama which then leads further and further.
For example, the other day we were talking about how more basic info was obtained thru a brief video statement from the prosecutor, more than what had been given regarding same, by LE.
There are certainly ways to give still a minute amount of info, but enough that it does not cause liability issues regarding the accused, nor risk issues regarding the prosecution, enough that all parties are considered, including the public's quest for info. So it makes me feel sometimes, even though some will go on about how the public is not entitled to know anything, LE cannot risk their eventual court case, and etc., at the same time, being the humans that we are, and knowing that everyone knows this, it creates thinking and thoughts leaning in a certain direction, which may or may not be necessarily correct. And those thoughts and leanings will continue on until the facts are known during the trial. In the meantime, certain thoughts may have been in the publics' minds for years.
So while I am sure that giving very very little information is considered safe, sometimes giving just a tiny bit more information is more fair and even safer.
Another thing is, this is obviously not a high profile case, and in fact it isn't a case at all. LE searched an area, looked into things, and yet it took the family going out there themselves into the exact same area, for closure to be found. That really bugs me too. I am not anti-LE by any means, but yet I still wonder if they are always on the top of their game, looking in all directions even tho one direction may 'seem' leading.

I fully agree with what you are saying. I was also bothered by the wife finding her husbands coat in the location that LE had already searched and that she notified them and only then was he discovered. I wonder what the release from LE was when they found him. Did they release to the public that he was found in a spot that was part of the search parameters?

 

[LoriMcA]

This from the American Chemical Society (ACS)
http://www.acs.org/content/acs/en.html

"ACS is a congressionally chartered independent membership organization which represents professionals at all degree levels and in all fields of chemistry and sciences that involve chemistry."

An interesting article/pdf at the ACS site *you can read online or download*

Chem Matters - The Forensics of Blood

http://www.acs.org/content/dam/acso...ghschool/chemmatters/chemmatters-feb-2008.pdf

ETA: Lois! This was meant to be directed at you :blushing: ...forgot to quote you....oops...maybe some info here you could use!

 

[LoisLane]

Regarding the driveway/garage door....here is an awesome picture....large...with a clear view before the forensics went through:

http://vipmedia.globalnews.ca/2014/06/missing-family-liknes-house.jpg?w=1200&h=800&crop=1

and after:

http://wpmedia.news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/liknes-house.jpg?w=620

http://www.ctvnews.ca/polopoly_fs/1...e.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_960/image.jpg



The only thing I've seen in the driveway in the location where the 'red' might be beside AL's truck is a twisted section of an extension cord *orange* seen here looking toward the #15 & #16 markers:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/calgary/cms/binary/9990715.jpg?size=620x400s

JMOO

Thanks for posting. It looks so normal from a street view. I also notice a shovel next to the black crates.

 

[ABro]

I am no longer a reporter and identified myself - as stated - when she approached me. It was not entirely private either since we were in a group. I was also very open about the fact that I would be sharing the day's events on this forum. She went so far as to say she hadn't checked our posts in a while and would do so. What, in particular, that I shared could possibly cause offence or embarrassment? I will have to check back and see what I shared but IIRC the only tidbit that was newsworthy was her mention of the truck being picked up twice on CCTV. That would clearly be of interest to those of us here.

Here's what you said:

She has her own theory and I have to tell you that it varies only very slightly from mine.

My theory is that the victims were disposed of with lye and the calcified remains incinerated. Under pressure and feeling nauseated to even type it, I responded (separately) to someone's question as to how I thought the victims were murdered. I suggested they were bludgeoned with a tyre iron while sleeping.

Speaking for myself, if you had talked to me, said my theory was close to yours, and then went on to say that you believed the bodies were disposed of with lye, I would be very upset as this is pure speculation.

I would be upset if the difference in our theories was the lye and you hadn't made that clear. And I would be upset if I was talking casually about a lye theory, which because there was no evidence could not be broadcast, and it was now out there tied to me.

Now, given that you say the reporter in question reads this site and she has not asked for her name to be removed, she may very well be perfectly okay with everything posted.

 

[kaley]

Do you mean down below, underneath the doors? I remember there was WS conversation regarding the mud there, a long time ago.

yeah beneath and on the side of the truck toward the bottom. I don't remember a conversation about the mud before but I don't know that I read all the posts from early on.

 

[LoisLane]

This from the American Chemical Society (ACS)
http://www.acs.org/content/acs/en.html

"ACS is a congressionally chartered independent membership organization which represents professionals at all degree levels and in all fields of chemistry and sciences that involve chemistry."

An interesting article/pdf at the ACS site *you can read online or download*

Chem Matters - The Forensics of Blood

http://www.acs.org/content/dam/acso...ghschool/chemmatters/chemmatters-feb-2008.pdf

ETA: Lois! This was meant to be directed at you :blushing: ...forgot to quote you....oops...maybe some info here you could use!

Thank you Lori! I am already reading the materials you posted. Very informative! Thank you very much for posting this.

 

[LoisLane]

Regarding the driveway/garage door....here is an awesome picture....large...with a clear view before the forensics went through:

http://vipmedia.globalnews.ca/2014/06/missing-family-liknes-house.jpg?w=1200&h=800&crop=1

and after:

http://wpmedia.news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/liknes-house.jpg?w=620

http://www.ctvnews.ca/polopoly_fs/1...e.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_960/image.jpg



The only thing I've seen in the driveway in the location where the 'red' might be beside AL's truck is a twisted section of an extension cord *orange* seen here looking toward the #15 & #16 markers:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/calgary/cms/binary/9990715.jpg?size=620x400s

JMOO

I have read the last article. It does not say how long the blood can be detected. So if the blood was present a year ago would the Luminol pick it up still? Also interesting is that the purple light will show up in prescence of other substances including horseradish, copper ions, and bleach. The final confirmation will be thru labratory testing to determine the substance that the Luminol picked up. So if the garage was cleaned with a bleach that would show as purple.

 

[LoriMcA]

I have read the last article. It does not say how long the blood can be detected. So if the blood was present a year ago would the Luminol pick it up still? Also interesting is that the purple light will show up in prescence of other substances including horseradish, copper ions, and bleach. The final confirmation will be thru labratory testing to determine the substance that the Luminol picked up. So if the garage was cleaned with a bleach that could show as purple.

I realized when I read through that it didn't elaborate on 'old blood'...
I liked the article as it showed the 'process' for the testing they do....
I was hoping it had more information about the breakdown & decay? of blood/body fluids/tissue...once it has been sitting for awhile....
I'm still looking for an article for that...will post if I find one!

 

[Cherchri]

Here's what you said:






Speaking for myself, if you had talked to me, said my theory was close to yours, and then went on to say that you believed the bodies were disposed of with lye, I would be very upset as this is pure speculation.

I would be upset if the difference in our theories was the lye and you hadn't made that clear. And I would be upset if I was talking casually about a lye theory, which because there was no evidence could not be broadcast, and it was now out there tied to me.

Now, given that you say the reporter in question reads this site and she has not asked for her name to be removed, she may very well be perfectly okay with everything posted.

Ok you have grabbed separate posts. If you read what I shared on said discussion again and carefully you will note: I did not say how her theory differed from mine and that was intentional. I did not share my theory with her but I asked for her views on what she thinks took place. She went into GREAT detail. I did not think it appropriate to reveal her theory and I guess, given this fuss, my instincts served me well. So the only thing I shared overtly here from my discussion was the timeline captured on CCTV and that was not theorized per se. I doubt anything I shared on this forum could or would prove to be embarrassing to said individual. I think people jump to conclusions and let their imagination run away with them. My words were well chosen.

 

[LoisLane]

I realized when I read through that it didn't elaborate on 'old blood'...
I liked the article as it showed the 'process' for the testing they do....
I was hoping it had more information about the breakdown & decay? of blood/body fluids/tissue...once it has been sitting for awhile....
I'm still looking for an article for that...will post if I find one!

It still is a very informative article. Very easy to understand. Do you know of chemical cleaning agents or other that would be a copper ion?

ETA... I think your profile pic has inspired my next question... If the garage had been egged would that show up in the luminol as purple?

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Ok you have grabbed separate posts. If you read what I shared on said discussion again and carefully you will note: I did not say how her theory differed from mine and that was intentional. I did not share my theory with her but I asked for her views on what she thinks took place. She went into GREAT detail. I did not think it appropriate to reveal her theory and I guess, given this fuss, my instincts served me well. So the only thing I shared overtly here from my discussion was the timeline captured on CCTV and that was not theorized per se. I doubt anything I shared on this forum could or would prove to be embarrassing to said individual. I think people jump to conclusions and let their imagination run away with them. My words were well chosen.

Yes... we certainly don't want to embarrass anyone, or make them look bad. If the individual chooses to do it to themself, then so be it... but we wouldn't want to put words in anyone's mouth.

 

[ABro]

Ok you have grabbed separate posts. If you read what I shared on said discussion again and carefully you will note: I did not say how her theory differed from mine and that was intentional. I did not share my theory with her but I asked for her views on what she thinks took place. She went into GREAT detail. I did not think it appropriate to reveal her theory and I guess, given this fuss, my instincts served me well. So the only thing I shared overtly here from my discussion was the timeline captured on CCTV and that was not theorized per se. I doubt anything I shared on this forum could or would prove to be embarrassing to said individual. I think people jump to conclusions and let their imagination run away with them. My words were well chosen.

Both quotes that I cited come from this one post: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...June-2014-*ARREST*-16&p=10972049#post10972049

 

[Cherchri]

Both quotes that I cited come from this one post: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...June-2014-*ARREST*-16&p=10972049#post10972049

As you know that was a compilation of comments, summarized per request on the new thread.

 

[news.talk]

Yes - must be careful - it might make the news

We have to be careful - OutOfTheDarkness will get jealous.

 

[LoriMcA]

It still is a very informative article. Very easy to understand. Do you know of chemical cleaning agents or other that would be a copper ion?

ETA... I think your profile pic has inspired my next question... If the garage had been egged would that show up in the luminol as purple?

I really don't but doing a quick google....everything that seems to pop up is about swimming pools/spas/hot tubs? Strange...I haven't delved further but that is all I came up with...
Your idea about bleach...now that would make sense...for the purple....unless they sprayed/applied their luminol/bluestar in areas they thought may have been touched on....
The keypad and maybe if they saw something up close & personal on the garage door that made them suspect something?
That large stain that Stan has pointed out too...was right below the keypad/edge of the garage door....

Now Lois...you aren't insinuating that she would egg something now do you?!?:floorlaugh:...I'm shocked...she doesn't have a basket of eggs with her....unless of course....they are under that cape.....