Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #19

[news.talk]

For sure! Once we hear all the evidence I can just see myself placing the pieces together, either frantically completing a puzzle or starting from scratch. I just hope that if we came up with one little sensible piece they may have missed that it will contribute in some sort of resolve in this case.

I always thought that in the early few days that anything WS found would have been easily obtained by LE and their own resources. I imagine that LE would be more interested in what we come up with now to see what loose pieces we could collect and if it serves any relevance to what they may need.

I also think that if a victim read the posts today and learned about the activity on KL's FB they would certainly ask LE for clarification. But maybe LE and the victim's family already knew about it and it is not relevant at all or easily explained.

I know of a few members of LE that have read these threads. Without divulging their assessments, I can say that for the most part we amuse them.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

For sure! Once we hear all the evidence I can just see myself placing the pieces together, either frantically completing a puzzle or starting from scratch. I just hope that if we came up with one little sensible piece they may have missed that it will contribute in some sort of resolve in this case.

I always thought that in the early few days that anything WS found would have been easily obtained by LE and their own resources. I imagine that LE would be more interested in what we come up with now to see what loose pieces we could collect and if it serves any relevance to what they may need.

I also think that if a victim read the posts today and learned about the activity on KL's FB they would certainly ask LE for clarification. But maybe LE and the victim's family already knew about it and it is not relevant at all or easily explained.

Tough call, since the things like FB profiles, company profiles, information and advertisements slowly got pulled down as people realized they were there. How many online LE investigators there were we don't know, but I could certainly see a help/hindrance debate about crowd sourced fact finding. Do sleuthers help locate hard to find pages quickly, or do they alert sites prematurely and allow them to pull relevant information down before LE can get at it... is just one of many possible debates.

 

[LoisLane]

I know of a few members of LE that have read these threads. Without divulging their assessments, I can say that for the most part we amuse them.

I am sure we do! Good to hear!

 

[Tinkerbel1]

The Garland property that was searched as part of the investigation is owned by the parents of the accused. Normally, depending on what is done with the estate property (eg: sell or change title), everything is divided equally. I'm basing Airdrie acreage value on current acreage sales for city lot development, as well as for 4 acre parcel development. Depending on the intended land use, the property value fluctuates between $4-8 million ... higher density, higher value; closer to Airdrie, higher value; annexed by Airdrie, very high value ... up to $8 million.

BBM. Douglas strikes me as the sullen, sneaky type rather than the head on approach of talking his grudge over with Alvin and Kathryn Liknes. If Allen knew about the grudge, then Alvin knew about the grudge ... that is, I think that Douglas Garland told Alvin Liknes that he was unhappy, and either Liknes or Garland told Allen that Douglas Garland was upset about the patent design name omission. I don't think that Douglas Garland had any reason to be confrontational with Alvin's son regarding the patent design recognition grudge (although maybe that conversation was at Thanksgiving Dinner 7 years ago). I do think that Douglas Garland confronted Alvin about the patent design recognition omission.

It's possible that Douglas Garland held a grudge from the time of the patent design payment problem. If he thought that his family money, intended for his sisters and their children, would be used for the Mazatlan retirement of the Liknes couple, then he could have been really angry to learn that not only was the money used by his sister to purchase an interest in the Mexico property, but the title was in the name of a company owned by Alvin and his twin brother Allen ... because two foreigners in a company can purchase property in Mexico. One person cannot purchase property in Mexico. The minute the money was in the names of the twins, if that happened, it was lost to the Garlands. Would it surprise anyone to learn that the Liknes couple had taken money from unsuspecting investors ... and then declared bankruptcy? The property purchase clearly happened prior to the bankruptcy declaration ... was money used to invest in a bankrupt company? What happened financially ... and what about the monkey business with the caveat on the property. Caveats usually relate to height restrictions and only effect the company insofar as restricting the building opens for the next owner. Why was the property mortgaged for more than the actual value. That usually requires some sort of monkey business with banks.

Regardless of whether the condo in Mazatlan was a good purchase, if the money came from the sister of the accused (which is the only thing that makes sense), then her money vanished from the paper trail the minute Alvin and Kathryn put it into a Mexico condo in some company name owned by twins Allen and Alvin Liknes. That could be a problem when there is a prior history of financial losses between Douglas Garland and Alvin Liknes.

If Allen Liknes worked hard to save money above and beyond the needs of his family, while riding the backroads on his motorcycle, and he invested thousands of dollars in a condo for his father and his father's wife, then that's great. It's just that he doesn't strike me as the type to have looked after all family needs and have that extra to give to his parents. Somehow, per the news, the Garland name included on the title of the property suggests to me that the sister's money was used.

It's also highly unlikely that the Liknes couple could purchase the property without a company of at least two. With a company, established by Allen Liknes, who has been in Mazatlan for some time, Alvin as the employee, it would be no problem to buy a condo ... but the Garland name would be lost either in the paperwork, or perhaps the bankruptcy.

That is, if we eliminate the use of money from Garland's sister, and the absence of security in that investment, then the entire theory falls apart. That's why one of the premises for the theory is that the Garland family is prosperous, the children could borrow money, that money was tied to the condo, and there was no paper trail for the sister/family (in the event of the sister's untimely death) to recoup the investment on paper.

I'm probably way late to be commenting on this...and this isn't specific to your quote Otto, however, I've heard it brought up several times that DG may be angry over what may 'potentially' be his sister's involvement in the Mexico condo. If, just for conversation's sake, the Garland property was worth $ 6 Million...middle of the road number...how much is the Mexico property worth? How many people were investing in the Mexico property? and, what would his sister's investment be? What? Maybe tops $ 100,000? Do you seriously think, DG, who will likely inherit in the neighborhood of approximately $ 2,000,000, if not more, plus another $ 33,000 (for 1/3 of his sister's early inheritance) is so shallow, vindictive and malicious to murder 2 adults and a child for $ 33,000?? It's her money. He will have his. I find it hard to fathom that this punitive amount out of the whole big picture would amount to more than a pee in a bucket to him. It's more likely he'ld have harder feelings over the patent dispute, if anything, than her investment in a condo, with her own inheritance money. Doesn't make much sense to me. JMO

 

[Tinkerbel1]

In order to run an obituary, they are required to produce the death certificate.

The Crown also cannot file homicide charges without an issued death certificate.

How hard is it to get a fake Death Certificate? If one can obtain fake credit cards, drivers licenses, passports and birth certificates...I don't think it would be difficult to present a Death Certificate to a funeral home. JMO

 

[Lalalacasbah]

penn west are laying off lotsa workers right now from top to bottom and it aint only about the low barrel of oil. I'm sure some workers are miffed.

on the flipside, maybe he's jumping the gun and seeing if he can sue dg - if found guilty - for wrongful death of his parent/s.

When I saw civil, I had that thought too - about suing DG, but I thought he would file a civil suit if DG was found not guilty.

Would he file a civil suit if found guilty do you think? I thought most folks did the civil suit when people got off, and this was a way to make them be accountable in some way.

And, do you think this lawyer is the type that does wrongful death suits or is that a different type of civil litigation lawyer? I don't know much about lawyers and their area of specializations.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Even reading this makes me very squeamish. Do we really need a timeline of events in each of the victims' family members, and to pin down the exact age of the victims' offspring? Next, are we going to calculate the day JO was conceived? I'm really struggling to find a good reason for this invasion of the family's privacy.

Seriously. What relevance does this have to the case?

 

[Tinkerbel1]

What preponderance of evidence, other than the green truck (the smoking gun), the burning fire reported by the neighbour lasting what ... 15 hours?, the attempted escape from justice.

There is no "preponderance of evidence" that leads investigators to know that the victims are dead. The Medical Examiner made the determination. The victims are declared deceased as a result of evidence at the crime scene. The medical examiner could not make a determination of death without clear, indisputable evidence.

What sort of secrecy is involved in the arrest of Douglas Garland. His name is not secrecy. The only thing that was secrecy was the fact that he was expelled from the University of Alberta in October of his second year of university, and he told a court in British Columbia that he voluntarily left the university because of a car accident. No secrecy there. He was arrested in 1982, but it was 10 years later that he fled to Vancouver and adopted a false name, in 1992. He was arrested in 1999 after a tip, and spent 6 months in jail ... with documented mental, violence, and authority issues.

Does the Blatchford reporter have more secrets to spill?

How the heck is the green truck the 'smoking gun'? And were there actually documented records of violence? I distinctly remember he was given early release because he wasn't violent or a threat to others...where now, does this accusation of violence come from? The dropped charges? Obviously, if the charges were dropped, they weren't true in the first place...so he does not have a documented history of violence. Pure conjecture. JMO

PS...I have authority issues and am not a murderer, and my ex-husband had what was probably a 24 hour fire within city limits, consequently visited by the Fire Department. He was burning a huge tree root. Also not a murderer.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

How hard is it to get a fake Death Certificate? If one can obtain fake credit cards, drivers licenses, passports and birth certificates...I don't think it would be difficult to present a Death Certificate to a funeral home. JMO

Lord only knows, but we can be quite certain it didn't happen for this case. That discussion was part of the whole "people calling LE incompetent" debate.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

If you want to break up, there is no need for a road trip.

If we manage to get through this tiff and you go to obtain our marriage certificate, you can order a death certificate at the same time.

http://www.servicealberta.ca/VitalStatistics.cfm


Regardless how the evidence was obtained, the end result was homicide charges. The Crown needs to provide a death certificate as a matter of record in order to proceed. Had there been no such certificate issued by the ME, the entire case would have been thrown out and the suspect would likely not be sitting in jail.

XOXOXO

You might want to think twice about marrying this one OutoftheDarkness...however, there may be a 2 for 1 discount for ordering such documents at the same time. Great bargain hunting News.Talk!

 

[Tinkerbel1]

I would think that presenting the medical examiner with a dead body, or crucial parts of a dead body, would be sufficient for a death certificate.

And, has that been done?

 

[news.talk]

How hard is it to get a fake Death Certificate? If one can obtain fake credit cards, drivers licenses, passports and birth certificates...I don't think it would be difficult to present a Death Certificate to a funeral home. JMO

In relevance to this case? Are you suggesting the Liknes and O'Brien families obtained a fake death certificate to run obituaries on their murdered family member's???

 

[news.talk]

When I saw civil, I had that thought too - about suing DG, but I thought he would file a civil suit if DG was found not guilty.

Would he file a civil suit if found guilty do you think? I thought most folks did the civil suit when people got off, and this was a way to make them be accountable in some way.

And, do you think this lawyer is the type that does wrongful death suits or is that a different type of civil litigation lawyer? I don't know much about lawyers and their area of specializations.

KR is a Criminal Defense Lawyer.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Yes, 27 year old adults that are still being supported by mom and dad perplex me. In my humble opinion, something went wrong when a 27 year old hasn't yet decided to live independently. That said, we don't know the age of this son, or whether he was living with his parents. It would be a big risk for the accused to break into a house where there were three adults in different parts of the house.

...and I have a 49 year old brother that has come back home to stay with mom since my dad passed? Why is an adult child living with their parents strange to you? Sometimes its to help the parents, sometimes its for financial reasons, and sometimes its due to plain old lack of maturity at that age (which incidentally runs rampant in this society nowadays). We have to consider the times as they are now, not back in the day when a child left home the minute he could (some 16, some 18...some 14), life is expensive now, and as mentioned, Engineering Degrees cost a fair chunk of change. Maybe he needed some financial support, although by the looks of things, I don't know why he'ld move home for that. JMO

 

[Tinkerbel1]

The victims are dead.
It is not an opinion that the victims are dead, it is a fact.

Tis not a fact yet.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

A couple thoughts that keep popping up for me...

How successful are police in recovering bodies during field searches? Does anyone know of any cases where they have recovered bodies by such efforts?

Has WS discussed the possibility of the someone being in medical distress that it could have been a way to describe the way AL walks? IIRC he walks with a limp.

We had a case about 8 years back, Leanna White in Edmonton was murdered by her husband. Search teams were put together by LE (with civilians) and sent out in different directions. Guess who headed the group that found Leanna's body? Her husband and his mother. That's who found her. He led them right to her.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

I have a FB question. Is it possible to "like" a page if you do not physically select the "Like" button?

KL has two moving companies listed under her "Like" pages list. Both companies only joined (created an acct.) FB in September of 2014.

I don't think you can "Like" a page without selecting the "Like" button....at least I've never seen it. I wonder if they were old companies that perhaps changed their company names, even so, the "Like" wouldn't go with it. Highly unlikely, but might be possible...but 2 of them? That would indeed be odd.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

but I can't just join your page, I need to request to be your friend or have someone ask me to be a friend, then, you click the accept icon. one can't just be a friend, one must physically request/accept or decline.

Do you have a FB login now?!! Awesome Stan!!

 

[news.talk]

Tis not a fact yet.

We could go another round on the same course, but instead, perhaps try the offensive position to this argument...

What facts and evidence can you provide that they are alive?

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Kathryn Liknes had a diploma in print making in the 1980s, so it would be unusual that she would work in Social Services. Her friend runs a daycare, and Kathryn helped out at the daycare sometimes.

She may have taken an administrative job for the regular hours, since she had a small child. It could have been in the social services department. I do recall reading an article that stated she worked in Social Services.