Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #20

[Lalalacasbah]

Okay, well I had to find out now. This is info from Statcan, keep in mind this is in reference to federal stats for crimes, but they are all probably connected to this database maybe…

"Coverage of the UCR aggregate data reflects virtually 100% of the total caseload for all police services in Canada. One incident can involve multiple offences. In order to ensure comparability, counts presented in this article are based upon the most serious offence in the incident as determined by a standard classification rule used by all police services. Counts based upon all violations are available upon request.

Each year, the UCR database is “frozen” at the end of May for the production of crime statistics for the preceding calendar year. However, police services continue to send updated data to Statistics Canada after this date for incidents that occurred in previous years. Generally, these revisions constitute new accused records, as incidents are solved and accused persons are identified by police. However, some new incidents may be added and previously reported incidents may be deleted as new information becomes known."

"Data from the Uniform Crime Reporting Survey are used to calculate both the traditional crime rate and the Crime Severity Index (CSI). Both the traditional crime rate and the CSI are based on the aggregate count of criminal incidents. A criminal incident involves one or more related offences that are committed during a single criminal event and have been reported to and substantiated by police. Where there are multiple victims within a single criminal event, a separate aggregate incident is counted for each victim. For example, a single incident involving an assault on three victims at the same time and location is counted in the aggregate statistics as three incidents of assault."

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2014001/article/14040-eng.htm?fpv=2693#a9

 

[news.talk]

Understood and agree. I'm trying to figure out what I'm missing in all the details. Worst case scenario, some IT guy is pulling his hair out trying to cover all the bases in a spreadsheet because there is no set policy on how to classify homicide without bodies while it's before the courts, and his bosses haven't got the email back yet from the higher ups as to what column to put it in.

I think your scenario is very close to the answer in this regard. This case does not fall into precise categories.

There are also many disclaimers including this one:

"The data are susceptible to a degree of error due to the complexities involved in compiling and programming the data."

This one is from the Crime Map:

"No warranty, representation or guarantee is made or implied regarding the content, sequence, accuracy, timeliness or completeness of any data provided herein."

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Hehe, you know me well! I love sending emails! Ask any of my friends and family and they will assure you that I will attempt to find the source of things or some resolve and have been doing it since I was a wee one. Some love it, some are nervous, some know they can count on me, and some have a few good stories about my style. When I was a teenager I had no filter so I got into a lot of trouble, now I would say it contributes to my success in different avenues of my life. The best part of it is that I will always help someone out if they are not comfortable in asking or getting to the bottom of something and that has been rewarding on so many levels.

I have followed up with the Sun reporter and will also attempt for some answers from CPS. I will keep you posted.

You're my kind of gal Lois! I tend to not have a filter (more in real life than in a crime forum lol) and I bet if we hung out back in the day (probably the 90s) we would've gotten into trouble/had some fun! You're A-OKay in my books.

 

[LoisLane]

I think your scenario is very close to the answer in this regard. This case does not fall into precise categories.

There are also many disclaimers including this one:

"The data are susceptible to a degree of error due to the complexities involved in compiling and programming the data."

Yup, it certainly can and most likely will be passed off as not needing to be accurate. Like I said in the last thread when we were hashing thru this is that they will most likely refer inquiries of discrepancy to the disclaimer. It would be appreciated if they could be accountable for their statistical reporting and either delete it or correct it. For now I assume sloppiness on their part and if these little things are a reflection of the service then why bother and how does it work in other departments when the material accumulated and presented needs to be held accountable? I.e. Evidence.

 

[news.talk]

Yup, it certainly can and most likely will be passed off as not needing to be accurate. Like I said in the last thread when we were hashing thru this is that they will most likely refer inquiries of discrepancy to the disclaimer. It would be appreciated if they could be accountable for their statistical reporting and either delete it or correct it. For now I assume sloppiness on their part and if these little things are a reflection of the service then why bother and how does it work in other departments when the material accumulated and presented needs to be held accountable? I.e. Evidence.

I honestly don't think it is "sloppiness" Lois. I maintain that this is a new and unique case that is beyond the usual protocols for the administrative personnel.

I have never had difficulty obtaining clarification of information from the CPS, but I have never made a request as a civilian, other than informally as a sister, daughter, mother, etc... Media requests are done in writing and I cannot make one of those for this case.

Let me know if you want any help wording the request.

 

[LoisLane]

I honestly don't think it is "sloppiness" Lois. I maintain that this is a new and unique case that is beyond the usual protocols for the administrative personnel.

I have never had difficulty obtaining clarification of information from the CPS, but I have never made a request as a civilian, other than informally as a sister, daughter, mother, etc... Media requests are done in writing and I cannot make one of those for this case.

Let me know if you want any help wording the request.

I guess by sloppiness I could say clerical error. If it is not matching up to the stats report because the investigaton is now before the courts we surely will not receive any clarification or adjustment for that reason alone. Time will tell. I sent a 311 request online. If it is a service offered for the community I guess that should be enough to receive a response. I will try the Community Liason Officer for some guidance. I sent an email to a reporter as well.

If I can find a direct contact I would be very interested in how to word the request from a reporter point of view, that would be appreciated. Thank you.

 

[otto]

No otto, that is where the problem lies... in June there was 1 only listed (even though there were 4 including the L trio):



Then in July, there were 4 additional homicides:


--
If you look at June's report wherein they only count the one homicide, instead of the 4, the total number of homicides for year to end of June is listed as 15 (it should be 18, but they have failed to include the trio).

Then if you look at July's report, it lists the 4 murders in July (does not count the trio's murder), but yet the total for year to end of July, has jumped to 22. Do you see now what I'm trying to say, in that 3 murders are missing?

Homicide #s 16, 17, and 18 are missing, in the June report (and the July report), but yet the 3 are included in the totals for the year.

Some record keeping might be related to National stats, and another may be for municipal stats ... and the criteria may be different for each record. Perhaps one of the criteria for keeping one of the records, but not the other, is that the victim is accounted for. A test case would be that of Ryan Lane. It was known that he was murdered well before his remains were found. Perhaps his murder reflects the same record keeping practices.

 

[PonderingNS]

I know this is the thread on the Liknes family murders but I wanted to take a minute here to call your attention to yet another heinous murder in Nova Scotia. Some of you have seen it, some may not. It was of a single mom, Catie Miller, 29. There are now three ppl charged in connection with her murder and I think it could use some focus from those here to perhaps help this poor family gather a few pieces if possible. So far it seems info has been very limited. Anyway, sorry to bring it up here, but I feel it needed a bit of a 'call for help' if you will.
Thx

 

[deugirtni]

Each report has its own specs.. which are listed.. some parts are static and don't get changed with new info, while some parts of the report do. I started having a deeper look late last night but I fell asleep, so I'll be at it again when I can get time. I'll see if I can find some info on Ryan Lane.

Some record keeping might be related to National stats, and another may be for municipal stats ... and the criteria may be different for each record. Perhaps one of the criteria for keeping one of the records, but not the other, is that the victim is accounted for. A test case would be that of Ryan Lane. It was known that he was murdered well before his remains were found. Perhaps his murder reflects the same record keeping practices.

 

[deugirtni]

The PDF report (the others don't mention) says it was compiled by this department, perhaps you could send an email directed to them?

Compiled by: Centralized Analysis Unit
Crime and Intelligence Analytical Section
Strategic Services Division
© Calgary Police Service 2014

I guess by sloppiness I could say clerical error. If it is not matching up to the stats report because the investigaton is now before the courts we surely will not receive any clarification or adjustment for that reason alone. Time will tell. I sent a 311 request online. If it is a service offered for the community I guess that should be enough to receive a response. I will try the Community Liason Officer for some guidance. I sent an email to a reporter as well.

If I can find a direct contact I would be very interested in how to word the request from a reporter point of view, that would be appreciated. Thank you.

 

[LoisLane]

I have spoken with the Community Liaison Officer in regards to a property for sale in the Parkhill area. I inquired as to why the crime map shows 2 homicides but that the statistical data monthly reports do not reflect those numbers. His explanation was that the Crime Map can be updated when charges are laid but that the monthly reports are up to date and the most current data, as well they can be changed to reflect updated information at a given time. I asked why the crime map which is the easiest to access and find is not updated and he basically said that it is not an up to date method for reference. He said that if anyone has concerns in any given neighborhood to contact the Community Liaison officer for that zone (which for Parkhill is him). The officer did not confirm that homicide did or did not take place in Parkhill and I certainly did not ask.

We talked briefly about crime in that particular neighborhood and he assured me that it is quite low compared to others. Most thefts are from detached garages and access is usually from unlocked cars with garage openers left inside. I asked about the high number of vehicle thefts and he said that that it is confused on the crime map and that the category for vehicle theft is 95% of the time reported as theft from a vehicle, the vehicles are not actually stolen.

My interpretation is that since there were no bodies discovered in the Parkhill home and since the case is still under investigation and before the courts that the final report of where the 3 suspected homicides takes place is not confirmed at this time. Therefore they do not need to include it in the report. It could change at the conclusion of the trial or once bodies are recovered if it is factual information that murder took place in Parkhill.

The request I put on the 311 website has been closed and with no explanation, so that was a dead end.

Is the information provided by the CLO enough for us to be satisfied? Any suggestions as to who else to contact? I will try to contact the Centralized Analysis Unit that is responsible for the monthly reports but I have yet to track down contact info for that department.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I have spoken with the Community Liaison Officer in regards to a property for sale in the Parkhill area. I inquired as to why the crime map shows 2 homicides but that the statistical data monthly reports do not reflect those numbers. His explanation was that the Crime Map can be updated when charges are laid but that the monthly reports are up to date and the most current data, as well they can be changed to reflect updated information at a given time. I asked why the crime map which is the easiest to access and find is not updated and he basically said that it is not an up to date method for reference. He said that if anyone has concerns in any given neighborhood to contact the Community Liaison officer for that zone (which for Parkhill is him). The officer did not confirm that homicide did or did not take place in Parkhill and I certainly did not ask.

We talked briefly about crime in that particular neighborhood and he assured me that it is quite low compared to others. Most thefts are from detached garages and access is usually from unlocked cars with garage openers left inside. I asked about the high number of vehicle thefts and he said that that it is confused on the crime map and that the category for vehicle theft is 95% of the time reported as theft from a vehicle, the vehicles are not actually stolen.

My interpretation is that since there were no bodies discovered in the Parkhill home and since the case is still under investigation and before the courts that the final report of where the 3 suspected homicides takes place is not confirmed at this time. Therefore they do not need to include it in the report. It could change at the conclusion of the trial or once bodies are recovered if it is factual information that murder took place in Parkhill.

The request I put on the 311 website has been closed and with no explanation, so that was a dead end.

Is the information provided by the CLO enough for us to be satisfied? Any suggestions as to who else to contact? I will try to contact the Centralized Analysis Unit that is responsible for the monthly reports but I have yet to track down contact info for that department.

Wow, great work! And thank you!

It makes sense that there are charges laid but no bodies so this case differs from 'normal' homicides, so harder to classify stats I'm sure.

I briefly read up on Catie Millers murder in Nova Scotia, so sad. They found her remains and publications are using the wording 'remains', as well the persons charged are charged with 1st degree as well as interfering with human remains, so awful.

So I'm think DG didn't have additional charges, so I'm hoping the trio may be found 'decently' if you know what I mean.

 

[deugirtni]

Great job LoisLane!

If you ever get to speak with that other unit (CAU), I would suggest asking why on the June report it shows 1 homicide with a year-to-date total of 15, and then in July it shows 4 homicides with a year-to-date total of 22. In which report are the additional 3 homicides to create the higher year-to-date total?

I have spoken with the Community Liaison Officer in regards to a property for sale in the Parkhill area. I inquired as to why the crime map shows 2 homicides but that the statistical data monthly reports do not reflect those numbers. His explanation was that the Crime Map can be updated when charges are laid but that the monthly reports are up to date and the most current data, as well they can be changed to reflect updated information at a given time. I asked why the crime map which is the easiest to access and find is not updated and he basically said that it is not an up to date method for reference. He said that if anyone has concerns in any given neighborhood to contact the Community Liaison officer for that zone (which for Parkhill is him). The officer did not confirm that homicide did or did not take place in Parkhill and I certainly did not ask.

We talked briefly about crime in that particular neighborhood and he assured me that it is quite low compared to others. Most thefts are from detached garages and access is usually from unlocked cars with garage openers left inside. I asked about the high number of vehicle thefts and he said that that it is confused on the crime map and that the category for vehicle theft is 95% of the time reported as theft from a vehicle, the vehicles are not actually stolen.

My interpretation is that since there were no bodies discovered in the Parkhill home and since the case is still under investigation and before the courts that the final report of where the 3 suspected homicides takes place is not confirmed at this time. Therefore they do not need to include it in the report. It could change at the conclusion of the trial or once bodies are recovered if it is factual information that murder took place in Parkhill.

The request I put on the 311 website has been closed and with no explanation, so that was a dead end.

Is the information provided by the CLO enough for us to be satisfied? Any suggestions as to who else to contact? I will try to contact the Centralized Analysis Unit that is responsible for the monthly reports but I have yet to track down contact info for that department.

 

[otto]

I know this is the thread on the Liknes family murders but I wanted to take a minute here to call your attention to yet another heinous murder in Nova Scotia. Some of you have seen it, some may not. It was of a single mom, Catie Miller, 29. There are now three ppl charged in connection with her murder and I think it could use some focus from those here to perhaps help this poor family gather a few pieces if possible. So far it seems info has been very limited. Anyway, sorry to bring it up here, but I feel it needed a bit of a 'call for help' if you will.
Thx

I just found the discussion of that homicide - will read about it:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...va-Scotia-15-July-2014&highlight=Catie+Miller

 

[otto]

I have spoken with the Community Liaison Officer in regards to a property for sale in the Parkhill area. I inquired as to why the crime map shows 2 homicides but that the statistical data monthly reports do not reflect those numbers. His explanation was that the Crime Map can be updated when charges are laid but that the monthly reports are up to date and the most current data, as well they can be changed to reflect updated information at a given time. I asked why the crime map which is the easiest to access and find is not updated and he basically said that it is not an up to date method for reference. He said that if anyone has concerns in any given neighborhood to contact the Community Liaison officer for that zone (which for Parkhill is him). The officer did not confirm that homicide did or did not take place in Parkhill and I certainly did not ask.

We talked briefly about crime in that particular neighborhood and he assured me that it is quite low compared to others. Most thefts are from detached garages and access is usually from unlocked cars with garage openers left inside. I asked about the high number of vehicle thefts and he said that that it is confused on the crime map and that the category for vehicle theft is 95% of the time reported as theft from a vehicle, the vehicles are not actually stolen.

My interpretation is that since there were no bodies discovered in the Parkhill home and since the case is still under investigation and before the courts that the final report of where the 3 suspected homicides takes place is not confirmed at this time. Therefore they do not need to include it in the report. It could change at the conclusion of the trial or once bodies are recovered if it is factual information that murder took place in Parkhill.

The request I put on the 311 website has been closed and with no explanation, so that was a dead end.

Is the information provided by the CLO enough for us to be satisfied? Any suggestions as to who else to contact? I will try to contact the Centralized Analysis Unit that is responsible for the monthly reports but I have yet to track down contact info for that department.

Thanks for looking into it. I think that explanation makes sense.

 

[news.talk]

As much as an empathetic person I am, I have learned the hard way to be careful with whom I empathize with.

There are many evil people in the world, some deserve forgiveness, some don't.

I feel as a human being - I cannot allow myself to forgive or empathize with those people so evil they are what I call subhuman. Because to me, to be human you need a conscience and emotions. Sadly, there are many out there who do not have this human trait, and often they commit heinous crimes from scamming retirement funds to rape to murder.

Criminals (psychopaths and some sociopaths) with no conscience cannot be rehabilitated and so, I have no sympathy for them. They will take and take and take with no limits or consequences - period. They do not learn, they do not love. They will chew you up and spit you out.

Criminals who have emotions and a conscience but who may be mentally ill, abused in the past/rough life and are drug addicted who commit crimes are a different type of criminal. Sometimes, these types of people just made bad decisions, and can learn from it. They can most of the time be rehabilitated and to me, can be forgivable.

There's two different cuts of cloth out there, IMHO. It's hard to argue over. I think this is a never ending problem in our world, how we treat criminals and victims, how we do we fix this? Empathy and love or tougher laws and consequences? I don't think this subject will ever be solved, as neither has seemed to work in other places in the world. Tough debate!

Sorry, rant over, just wanted to throw in my thoughts.

Very well said LaLa!

I have had the misfortune of interviewing 'pure evil' - i.e. Psychopaths that no amount of love, compassion or rehabilitation could ever overcome. People that take great pleasure in their misdeeds and if paroled, would commit even more atrocities. These are not people that are suffering from a mental illness, in fact will openly admit to trying to use that as a legal tool. There is simply something fundamentally missing from their character.

The ethical question becomes, do they still deserve our compassion, protection and assistance? For me, the line gets drawn by using the law. I believe they should be afforded the same rights as anyone, but compassion? Forgiveness? Understanding? Not by me.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Very well said LaLa!

I have had the misfortune of interviewing 'pure evil' - i.e. Psychopaths that no amount of love, compassion or rehabilitation could ever overcome. People that take great pleasure in their misdeeds and if paroled, would commit even more atrocities. These are not people that are suffering from a mental illness, in fact will openly admit to trying to use that as a legal tool. There is simply something fundamentally missing from their character.

The ethical question becomes, do they still deserve our compassion, protection and assistance? For me, the line gets drawn by using the law. I believe they should be afforded the same rights as anyone, but compassion? Forgiveness? Understanding? Not by me.

It's definitely a fine line of ethics and I agree, the people who suffer from psychopathy take great pleasure in manipulating and hurting others, and they welcome bleeding heart types to cross their path (don't get me wrong about bleeding hearts, I consider myself one of those!) for them to use and dispose of.

They are also treated very well in prison, so their human rights have been maintained in our legal system as far as I'm concerned. I have heard first hand from someone who's worked there and like you, whose job was to interview the evilest people in there and refer to them as 'mister'. I can't even imagine sitting in the same room or speaking to a murderer, makes me nauseous to think about it.

Our culture is so desensitized by violence, crime shows, and seeing 'bad guys on TV' that I think people forget how detached that is from real life bad people. I think people would be surprised if they came across someone really evil/violent in their lifetime, because these bad people find a way to wiggle their way in and then, just like that - people don't even know what hit them because it's too late.

But hey, what can you do? Charles Manson might be able to marry his 26 year old groupie….just doesn't seem right. JMO.

 

[LoisLane]

Interesting article in the Calgary Herald:
http://calgaryherald.com/news/crime/council-debates-a-tight-police-budget

"But new challenges and costs can add up. Some murder investigations — with wire taps, DNA analysis and detective hours — can cost Calgary Police Service more than $1 million, Hanson told council as he presented his $451-million yearly budget.

More complex investigations like the Liknes-O’Brien homicide that brought in a force-wide effort rang up a much higher bill, he added, though he couldn’t offer an actual estimate."

Calgary Sun:
http://www.calgarysun.com/2014/11/2...for-budget-boost-from-city-hall#disqus_thread

"He said Supreme Court rulings targeting false convictions have driven up the threshold for proper evidence, and police costs."

"We're paying the price today for a number of flawed prosecutions like Milgaard," said Hanson.
David Milgaard spent 23 years in prison for a 1969 Saskatoon murder he didn't commit."

 

[news.talk]

Interesting article in the Calgary Herald:
http://calgaryherald.com/news/crime/council-debates-a-tight-police-budget

"But new challenges and costs can add up. Some murder investigations — with wire taps, DNA analysis and detective hours — can cost Calgary Police Service more than $1 million, Hanson told council as he presented his $451-million yearly budget.

More complex investigations like the Liknes-O’Brien homicide that brought in a force-wide effort rang up a much higher bill, he added, though he couldn’t offer an actual estimate."

I suspect that the man hours for searching, the various units they had to deploy, not to mention the forensic costs associated with this case, were significantly higher than the 'average' homicide investigation.

 

[LoisLane]

I suspect that the man hours for searching, the various units they had to deploy, not to mention the forensic costs associated with this case, were significantly higher than the 'average' homicide investigation.

Yes, that is what Hanson stated. I wonder how much this case cost... 5-10 million? Are they given a budget and limits or cut-off at some point as in forced to shut down the efforts?